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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2047

post #61381 of 70895
You must have mixed it up:
The Onkyo xx07 and earlier had it for sure, few if any (?) of the xx08, they had a different problem with the control board, but i don't know of any xx09 model, which had a common HDMI board issue.
There may be still some out there, but right now, i would doubt a common problem of the latest generation.
post #61382 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

You must have mixed it up:
The Onkyo xx07 and earlier had it for sure, few if any (?) of the xx08, they had a different problem with the control board, but i don't know of any xx09 model, which had a common HDMI board issue.
There may be still some out there, but right now, i would doubt a common problem of the latest generation.

AH, my bad. Thanks for clarifying that.
post #61383 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

You must have mixed it up:
The Onkyo xx07 and earlier had it for sure, few if any (?) of the xx08, they had a different problem with the control board, but i don't know of any xx09 model, which had a common HDMI board issue.
There may be still some out there, but right now, i would doubt a common problem of the latest generation.

Its still to early to tell if the problem is fixed.

My XX007 model went out just last year for the first time(HDMI board failure) after being purchased in 2010. The same problem has been reported for some XX008 models already.

Most failures come to fruition on those(Onkyo) units from what I have read at around the 2 year service mark and since the XXX09 models were released late 2011 those models are not out of the woods until at least 2014 without significant failures.

Sorry if this is too OT, back to Audyssey.
post #61384 of 70895
I have the onkyo tx-nr807...i've run audyssey set up as per instructions using 6 positions...
I use 6.1 set up(L-R-C-L.surround,R.surround,Back surround,SWoofer) plus 2 wides....
Which listening mode should i use to have sound from all channels when :

1) i have a 5.1 source

2) i have 7.1 source

I'm i correct that DSX doesn't create back surround channel on 5.1 sources? So i'll have to use DSX with an upmixing listening mode like Dolby PLIIx movie or Neo 6?

Thanks!
post #61385 of 70895

FAQ UPDATE!

 

I've updated the answer below to take into account the recent discussion as to whether speaker SPLs should be the same across all speakers after running Audyssey and when testing with an SPL meter.

 

e)3.   Why does my My Sound Pressure Level meter give a different result to Audyssey?

post #61386 of 70895
kbarnes,
Thanks, that addition to the FAQ addressed my concerns exactly.
I'll get a callibration disc and redo Audyssey.
post #61387 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

kbarnes,
Thanks, that addition to the FAQ addressed my concerns exactly.
I'll get a callibration disc and redo Audyssey.

 

Excellent. Thanks, Doug, for raising the issue.  This is how the FAQ grows more useful over time.

post #61388 of 70895
^ Keith, I am confused. Let's say I wanted to check to see if my speakers are all set to approximately 75dB. I get out my test DVD (Avia, for example), set Audyssey to on (DEQ and DVol off, of course), and play the test tone. The loudness of the test tone depends on the master volume setting, of course. On my system with MV=0, the Avia wide-band pink noise speaker level test tone registers 82dB on my RS SPL at the MLP. How does this help me determine if the speaker is indeed playing at 75dB?

On the other hand, using the AVR internal speaker-level test tones, which are also played at a MV=0 level, my RS SPL shows a remarkably flat 74dB +/- 1dB across all 11 channels. I know that Audyssey is not used when these test tones are generated, but does this really matter for a pink noise signal?

Call me old-fashioned, by I still think using an SPL with the internal test tones are a perfectly adequate method of checking both absolute and relative speaker levels, at least for the satellite speakers.

The exception is the sub channel. Using the internal test tones, my sub channel shows to be -5dB relative to the other channels. However, using the Avia subwoofer level test tones, which output an alternating tone between a satellite speaker and the sub channel, I am seeing that the sub level is indeed close to the same as the satellite's. So, for the sub channel, having Audyssey correction engaged makes a big difference.
post #61389 of 70895
I would agree that the internal test tones should be perfectly fine for checking the *relative* speaker levels. My speakers always measure a consistent 72-73dB with the RS SPL meter after Audyssey. It won't be effective for *absolute* level check, both because of the inherent error margin in the RS meter vs. the Audyssey mic, and the different method that Audyssey uses for setting SPL, but to check relative levels on the satellite speakers I think it's just fine.
post #61390 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I would agree that the internal test tones should be perfectly fine for checking the *relative* speaker levels. My speakers always measure a consistent 72-73dB with the RS SPL meter after Audyssey. It won't be effective for *absolute* level check, both because of the inherent error margin in the RS meter vs. the Audyssey mic, and the different method that Audyssey uses for setting SPL, but to check relative levels on the satellite speakers I think it's just fine.

Agree completely, BP. I was questioning the assertion that an external test disk could measure absolute sound levels. Even using a calibrated mic and REW, the results are not perfect, because the SPL is used to calibrate the mic in REW.

Besides, how important is it if the speaker levels are, say, 73dB vs. 75dB? If the relative level is the same, that's what is important.
post #61391 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I would agree that the internal test tones should be perfectly fine for checking the *relative* speaker levels. My speakers always measure a consistent 72-73dB with the RS SPL meter after Audyssey. It won't be effective for *absolute* level check, both because of the inherent error margin in the RS meter vs. the Audyssey mic, and the different method that Audyssey uses for setting SPL, but to check relative levels on the satellite speakers I think it's just fine.

Hi bp, if by different method you mean that Audyssey does not us a band limited pink noise, you are right, as always! smile.gif

Here's how Chris K. once explained their "different method":

"Audyssey measures the entire frequency response of each speaker. The chirps are "full range" even though it's hard to hear the low frequencies in the beginning. After that the energy under the 500-2k range is analyzed to produce an SPL estimate. The trim is the difference between that estimate and 75 dB SPL.

For the sub the method is the same, but the range it looks over is 30-80 Hz."
post #61392 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

^ Keith, I am confused. Let's say I wanted to check to see if my speakers are all set to approximately 75dB. I get out my test DVD (Avia, for example), set Audyssey to on (DEQ and DVol off, of course), and play the test tone. The loudness of the test tone depends on the master volume setting, of course. On my system with MV=0, the Avia wide-band pink noise speaker level test tone registers 82dB on my RS SPL at the MLP. How does this help me determine if the speaker is indeed playing at 75dB?

 

It doesn't. Did the FAQ answer give you the impression that it would?  If so then I need to rewrite some of it to make it more clear. There is no way of knowing what the level of the tones on the test disc is (unless it has been designed to work the way you say in an Audyssey calibrated system). So setting the MV at 0 could result in any reading on the SPL meter.  It's the same with real content - try playing The Dark Knight Rises at -5dB for example and you will be deaf before the end. But you can comfortably play The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey at -5dB. And both are movies and therefore presumably calibrated to 'Reference' in terms of average and peak SPLs.

 

The point of using the test disc is to enable a SPL measurement to be taken with Audyssey engaged because the AVR test tones bypass Audyssey and, depending on what Audyssey has done, this could result in a different measurement to the Audyssey-on SPLs. Because we have no way of knowing how much boost or cut was applied by Audyssey in any individual calibration, we can't assume that the SPLs will be the same Audyssey-on and Audyssey-off. By using the test disc, the relative levels of all the channels can be measured after Audyssey has boosted or cut certain frequencies and they should then all be consistently the same, regardless of if they are 75dB or 82dB. The OP was concerned that his were measuring 64dB on some channels, 75dB on others and different again on others. But he was using the AVR test tones to determine this which is not best practice because they bypass Audyssey. I agree that this is all a bit theoretical because we have no way of knowing what Audyssey has done to the FR of the OP's system and it may or may not have applied considerable boosts or cuts at any specific frequencies at all. If Audyssey did nothing at all (say) then the test tones would be expected to give the same result as if they had Audyssey engaged, but we assume that Audyssey will have done something (and often, in an untreated room, quite a bit in all likelihood). 

 

Quote:
On the other hand, using the AVR internal speaker-level test tones, which are also played at a MV=0 level, my RS SPL shows a remarkably flat 74dB +/- 1dB across all 11 channels. I know that Audyssey is not used when these test tones are generated, but does this really matter for a pink noise signal?

 

IDK, Jerry. I also get a very consistent 73dB across all satellites when using the internal test tones too.

 

Quote:
Call me old-fashioned, by I still think using an SPL with the internal test tones are a perfectly adequate method of checking both absolute and relative speaker levels, at least for the satellite speakers.

 

I strongly suspect that for most of the time it doesn't matter. But there has to be some explanation for what the OP was experiencing - his speakers were measuring several dB different across his satellites and that is suspicious at the least. Given that, it seems best practice a) to advise him that the test tones bypass Audyssey, b) advise him that Audyssey's adjustments might account for the differences (see Selden's earlier post) and c) advise him to try a test disc so that he can test for consistency with Audyssey engaged (and DEQ and DVol off).

post #61393 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I would agree that the internal test tones should be perfectly fine for checking the *relative* speaker levels. My speakers always measure a consistent 72-73dB with the RS SPL meter after Audyssey. It won't be effective for *absolute* level check, both because of the inherent error margin in the RS meter vs. the Audyssey mic, and the different method that Audyssey uses for setting SPL, but to check relative levels on the satellite speakers I think it's just fine.

Agree completely, BP. I was questioning the assertion that an external test disk could measure absolute sound levels. Even using a calibrated mic and REW, the results are not perfect, because the SPL is used to calibrate the mic in REW.

Besides, how important is it if the speaker levels are, say, 73dB vs. 75dB? If the relative level is the same, that's what is important.

 

Jerry, could you point to the part of the FAQ answer which says that?

 

This is what I wrote for the FAQ:

 

"If you use audio level test tracks from a good, properly recorded audio calibration disc (or other reliable external audio signal source), they can be processed by Audyssey. If Audyssey's calibration has done its job correctly, when Audyssey is enabled (and Dyn Vol and Dyn EQ are disabled) those externally-supplied calibration sounds should all produce the same sound level at the Main Listening Position."

 

Note the emboldened part - it doesn't say that the absolute levels (ie 75dB) will be measured - just that they should all produce the same sound level, which could be 75dB or 80dB or who knows what - it will depend on the test disc.

post #61394 of 70895
Ok, I was reading into it something that isn't there, sorry. So, since we can't measure absolute 75dB with any accuracy, we are better off trusting that Audyssey has done its job.
post #61395 of 70895
Keith,

Perhaps one could argue that it isn't clear what the sound levels should be the same as. It's a bit of a stretch, though. A possible clarification might be

" those externally-supplied calibration sounds should all produce the same sound level as each other at the Main Listening Position. The specific sound level would depend on the characteristics of the externally-supplied calibration tones."

Or maybe include the paragraph that you just wrote.
post #61396 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The point of using the test disc is to enable a SPL measurement to be taken with Audyssey engaged because the AVR test tones bypass Audyssey and, depending on what Audyssey has done, this could result in a different measurement to the Audyssey-on SPLs. 

Hi Keith, please allow me to point out some seemingly minot issue, but I'm sure it will add to further understanding of some in-depth details. Actually the internal test tones do not "bypass" Audyssey, but the AVR has the test noise in a block that comes "after" MultEQ and so it doesn't see the filters. And that also explains why we see the Audyssey indicators lit on our displays during test tone rendering. Yet, turning Audyssey on-off makes no difference.
post #61397 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Ok, I was reading into it something that isn't there, sorry. So, since we can't measure absolute 75dB with any accuracy, we are better off trusting that Audyssey has done its job.

Agreed entirely. The question wrt to Doug is "has it done its job?". There has to be a reason why his SPLs are all over the place. Of course, it isn't necessarily and Audyssey issue.

post #61398 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Keith,

Perhaps one could argue that it isn't clear what the sound levels should be the same as. It's a bit of a stretch, though. A possible clarification might be

" those externally-supplied calibration sounds should all produce the same sound level as each other at the Main Listening Position. The specific sound level would depend on the characteristics of the externally-supplied calibration tones."

Or maybe include the paragraph that you just wrote.

 

Good call Selden. I will amend it as you suggest. Thanks.

post #61399 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Keith,

Perhaps one could argue that it isn't clear what the sound levels should be the same as. It's a bit of a stretch, though. A possible clarification might be

" those externally-supplied calibration sounds should all produce the same sound level as each other at the Main Listening Position. The specific sound level would depend on the characteristics of the externally-supplied calibration tones."

Or maybe include the paragraph that you just wrote.

Hi Selden, I can again only refer to what the CTO of Audyssey said a while ago on checking SLP:

"If you are absolutely certain that the external CD was properly recorded (there are some that are not--particularly DVDs that have messed up the dialnorm setting), then that's the way to go. Because of this uncertainty, however, we always recommend to go with the internal test tone if you want to check."

I think this above comment of Chris on dialnorm settings only refers to the case when someone is really keen on checking absolute levels whether or not they meet 75 dB.
post #61400 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The point of using the test disc is to enable a SPL measurement to be taken with Audyssey engaged because the AVR test tones bypass Audyssey and, depending on what Audyssey has done, this could result in a different measurement to the Audyssey-on SPLs. 

Hi Keith, please allow me to point out some seemingly minot issue, but I'm sure it will add to further understanding of some in-depth details. Actually the internal test tones do not "bypass" Audyssey, but the AVR has the test noise in a block that comes "after" MultEQ and so it doesn't see the filters. And that also explains why we see the Audyssey indicators lit on our displays during test tone rendering. Yet, turning Audyssey on-off makes no difference.

 

Indeed, you are correct, Feri. But I figured that using one word ('bypass') was a hugely simpler way to explain the effect than 4 sentences wink.gif

post #61401 of 70895
Another factor which probably skewed the db readings was that I had Dyn Eq engaged when I measured the test tones. That was before my original post so I didn't realize at the time how that might affect the measurements. I will get a calibration disc and remeasure with everything turned off and report back.
This forum and the people in it are a great help!!!!!
post #61402 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Indeed, you are correct, Feri. But I figured that using one word ('bypass') was a hugely simpler way to explain the effect than 4 sentences wink.gif

How is this version Keith?

The point of using the test disc is to enable an SPL measurement to be taken with Audyssey engaged because the AVR test tones are in a block that comes after MultEQ and so it doesn't see the filters, and depending on what Audyssey has done, this could result in a different measurement to the Audyssey-on SPLs.
post #61403 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Another factor which probably skewed the db readings was that I had Dyn Eq engaged when I measured the test tones. That was before my original post so I didn't realize at the time how that might affect the measurements. I will get a calibration disc and remeasure with everything turned off and report back.
This forum and the people in it are a great help!!!!!

Please don't be confused Doug, if you mean you used the internal test tones having Audyssey engaged or not doesn't make any difference. See my previous post(s). smile.gif
post #61404 of 70895
I have just the multeq version of Audyssey and I am using two subs that Audyssey reads as one because I have no Sub Eq Ht on my avr. If one day I decide to use just one sub do I need to run Audyssey again in order to get the full potential of the one sub? In using two subs does the performance split up among the two or do each perform to their full capacity?
post #61405 of 70895
^Hi. Absolutely, if you change from 2 subs to 1 you should rerun Audyssey as for several reasons the LF response in the room will be different.

With 2 subs, it's best to get 2 that are exactly the same to avoid the lesser sub limiting the greater. The more significantly they different in overall capability the more the limitation. However, this is a complex topic. For ex., the limiting of the lesser sub can be somewhat ameliorated by placing it in a corner. And, the carefully measured and placed addition of even a lesser sub could have such a beneficial effect on overall bass smoothness it may be worth any limitation in the very low end.
post #61406 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Indeed, you are correct, Feri. But I figured that using one word ('bypass') was a hugely simpler way to explain the effect than 4 sentences wink.gif

How is this version Keith?

The point of using the test disc is to enable an SPL measurement to be taken with Audyssey engaged because the AVR test tones are in a block that comes after MultEQ and so it doesn't see the filters, and depending on what Audyssey has done, this could result in a different measurement to the Audyssey-on SPLs.

 

That is very clear, Feri, for sure. But it doesn't really add anything to the reader's comprehension of the issue, IMO,  that using the term 'bypass' doesn't convey. I guess most FAQ readers are not really interested in the inner workings of their AVR or Audyssey, so talking about 'blocks' that 'come after MultEQ' probably goes right over their heads. The most important thing for them to understand is that when they use the internal test tones, Audyssey is, er, bypassed ;)

post #61407 of 70895
+1 ... who cares about the specifics of the internal architecture. The word "bypass" conveys sufficient meaning to make that point in the FAQ clear. Feri's suggested wording doesn't add any meaningful clarity to the issue and that kind of specificity is outside the scope of the FAQ.
post #61408 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

+1 ... who cares about the specifics of the internal architecture. The word "bypass" conveys sufficient meaning to make that point in the FAQ clear. Feri's suggested wording doesn't add any meaningful clarity to the issue and that kind of specificity is outside the scope of the FAQ.

Then please explain to the FAQ readers why the Audyssey indicators remain lit during test tone rendering?tongue.gif
post #61409 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That is very clear, Feri, for sure. .................... when they use the internal test tones, Audyssey is, er, bypassed wink.gif

Bypassed? From right or left? tongue.gif (Sorry, couldn't resist!) cool.gif
post #61410 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Then please explain to the FAQ readers why the Audyssey indicators remain lit during test tone rendering?tongue.gif

Nobody will ever notice that. Tell you what -- if a single person ever posts on this thread voicing confusion because the FAQ said the internal test tones bypass Audyssey, but the Audyssey indicators are lit on their receiver's display, then we can ask Keith to change the FAQ wink.gif
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