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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2051

post #61501 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I don't think it's necessary to sweat on this issue too much more Keith. Just let everyone do as batpig suggests: use the internal test tones and call it a day.
 

 

I have stopped sweating :)  I am going to follow, as I usually do, Roger's advice, which I have now incorporated into the FAQ. The FAQ answer now seems to have most options covered, and people can choose the one that appeals to them the most.

post #61502 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Roger, with your permission, I will add that to the relevant FAQ answer by way of clarification of what is already there.  I will, of course, attribute it to you.
By all means, Keith. And feel free to correct my flippant naming of the various Dynamic modes. I was just tossing out terms without concern to do so correctly.

Thanks Roger...

post #61503 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I have stopped sweating smile.gif  I am going to follow, as I usually do, Roger's advice, which I have now incorporated into the FAQ. The FAQ answer now seems to have most options covered, and people can choose the one that appeals to them the most.

Keith, what are you going to tell folks (through the FAQ) when they come back and ask why they have consistent 71 dB in all their speakers when they read the channel levels are set to 75 dB by Audyssey?
post #61504 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The OP's problem was that his levels were all very different to each other when he tested - and that is unusual.
I think the OP will see much better results when he retests the levels with Dynamic EQ turned off.

And yes, the fact that Audyssey uses the MLP mic position to determine the delays and speaker gains does not mean it does not do so taking into full account the effect of the final EQ curves. This is not difficult, and Audyssey is a well designed process.

The only issue we are discussing is that the AVR structure places the noise generator after the EQ. Luckily, the 2 octaves between 500 Hz and 2 kHz are likely to be the least prone to response errors both in speaker design and in room interaction, so the differences will be minimal when comparing, in particular, a THX test signal (Optimizer) -- the narrowest of the narrow-band test signals, same as apparently generated inside Audyssey equipped AVRs (owing to the Holman connection in both cases). If the OP has such test signals (they are found on many DVDs and BDs), that would further aid in reducing variables in his retest.
post #61505 of 70896
I did rerun Audyssey and this time I only used 4 different mic positions all clustered closely to the mlp. The treble boost is still pretty high but not nearly as bright as before. I like a brighter sound so this sounds ok to me. Taking spl measurements with Audyssey on but all other functions off with the receiver test tones gave me a range of 70-74 db's from the various speakers so it's getting better. I did adjust all my speakers to 74 db's and it's starting to sound better. I called Denon yesterday and the guy I spoke with told me he was bumping me up to a higher tech level and that they would get back to me last night. I haven't heard back yet.
Mogorf....I think you might be right regarding a bad mic so I'm hoping Denon will send me another. My 3311 mic looks the same but it's a DM-A409 where the 4520's mic is an ACM-1HB so I didn't try to use that.
I might be imagining things now but it still just doesn't seem to sound as good with music as the 3311 did. The only way I'll know for sure is to swap them out which I'll try to get to this weekend. It could very well just be my imagination now but music still sounds muddy at higher volumes. I'm wondering if that XPA-3 might clear things up although my speakers are efficient and this receiver should have enough juice for them. I'm pushing 2 more speakers than I did with the 3311 but I wouldn't think that would make that much of a difference?
Despite these issues with stereo music, this receiver sounds great with movies using Neo:X mode.
post #61506 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

I did rerun Audyssey and this time I only used 4 different mic positions all clustered closely to the mlp. The treble boost is still pretty high but not nearly as bright as before. I like a brighter sound so this sounds ok to me. Taking spl measurements with Audyssey on but all other functions off with the receiver test tones gave me a range of 70-74 db's from the various speakers so it's getting better. I did adjust all my speakers to 74 db's and it's starting to sound better. I called Denon yesterday and the guy I spoke with told me he was bumping me up to a higher tech level and that they would get back to me last night. I haven't heard back yet.
Mogorf....I think you might be right regarding a bad mic so I'm hoping Denon will send me another. My 3311 mic looks the same but it's a DM-A409 where the 4520's mic is an ACM-1HB so I didn't try to use that.
I might be imagining things now but it still just doesn't seem to sound as good with music as the 3311 did. The only way I'll know for sure is to swap them out which I'll try to get to this weekend. It could very well just be my imagination now but music still sounds muddy at higher volumes. I'm wondering if that XPA-3 might clear things up although my speakers are efficient and this receiver should have enough juice for them. I'm pushing 2 more speakers than I did with the 3311 but I wouldn't think that would make that much of a difference?
Despite these issues with stereo music, this receiver sounds great with movies using Neo:X mode.

If I were you I would wait for the replacement mic and do all 8 available mic positions. Nothing to spare, let Audyssey do it's "thing" by providing as much info of your room as you can.

As regards music, have you tried to fiddle with reference level offset, yet? wink.gif

Good luck. Repost back please when you have the new mic. smile.gif
post #61507 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I have stopped sweating smile.gif  I am going to follow, as I usually do, Roger's advice, which I have now incorporated into the FAQ. The FAQ answer now seems to have most options covered, and people can choose the one that appeals to them the most.

Personally, I think the language is right where it needs to be. If clarification from Audyssey ever pops up it could be readdressed, but I think you nailed it.
post #61508 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

And yes, the fact that Audyssey uses the MLP mic position to determine the delays and speaker gains does not mean it does not do so taking into full account the effect of the final EQ curves. This is not difficult, and Audyssey is a well designed process.

My money is on the "it doesn't do that" chip. biggrin.gif
post #61509 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Mogorf....I think you might be right regarding a bad mic so I'm hoping Denon will send me another. My 3311 mic looks the same but it's a DM-A409 where the 4520's mic is an ACM-1HB so I didn't try to use that.

The mics are actually interchangeable for those two models. I would try it with the 3311 mic, can't hurt!
post #61510 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That is true but I don't see how it invalidates my hypothesis.

It doesn't. My own measurements and the fact that Chris never even hinted at the fact that there is a complex process behind setting the channel trims leads me to believe there isn't one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I am only hypothesising - IDK if Audyssey works the way I suggested.

Well, me too. biggrin.gif To be honest, I never thought anyone believed the AVR internal test tones(or an un-EQ'd -20dBFS signal) were not a valid method to double check channel levels set by Audyssey until I read the FAQ.
post #61511 of 70896
Meanwhile, over at the Secrets of Home Theater High Fidelity site, Dr. David Rich has reviewed the Anthem ARC EQ system in a D2V prepro. He liked ARC very much.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/audio-calibration/audio-calibration-reviews/anthem-room-correction-arc-system-part-1.html

On page 9, halfway down under Notes on High Resolution Signal Processing, he cites the finding that the Marantz 8801 prepro with XT/32 engaged does not pass a 30 kHz signal from a 96k/24bit resolution input test signal, whereas the prepro does pass that signal without Audyssey engaged. From this, he opines that Audyssey must be downrezzing the input to 48k. He speculatively extends this to all implementations of Audyssey, presumably including Pro with XT/32.

I find his post EQ curve for the Marantz curious, in that there is no HF rolloff in the audio band below 20kHz, which we know the standard target curve contains. Perhaps, he is using the Audyssey flat or "music" curve. In fact, the Audyssey target curve may be the reason that the Marantz did not pass the 30kHz signal, as opposed to the downrezzing. His measurements show a response rolloff with Audyssey engaged above 20kHz. But, I do not think limiting the audio bandwidth is the same as downrezzing the signal to 48K resolution, or is it?

I am wondering if the powers that be at Audyssey have any comment on Rich's rather startling opinion.
Edited by fitzcaraldo215 - 4/16/13 at 6:52pm
post #61512 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Meanwhile, over at the Secrets of Home Theater High Fidelity site, Dr. David Rich has reviewed the Anthem ARC EQ system in a D2V prepro. He liked ARC very much.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/audio-calibration/audio-calibration-reviews/anthem-room-correction-arc-system-part-1.html

On page 9, halfway down under Notes on High Resolution Signal Processing, he cites the finding that the Marantz 8801 prepro with XT/32 engaged does not pass a 30 kHz signal from a 96k/24bit resolution input test signal, whereas the prepro does pass that signal without Audyssey engaged. From this, he opines that Audyssey must be downrezzing the input to 48k. He speculatively extends this to all implementations of Audyssey, presumably including Pro with XT/32.

I find his post EQ curve for the Marantz curious, in that there is no HF rolloff in the audio band below 20kHz, which we know the standard target curve contains. Perhaps, he is using the Audyssey flat or "music" curve. In fact, the Audyssey target curve may be the reason that the Marantz did not pass the 30kHz signal, as opposed to the downrezzing. His measurements show a response rolloff with Audyssey engaged above 20kHz. But, I do not think limiting the audio bandwidth is the same as downrezzing the signal to 48K resolution, or is it?

I am wondering if the powers that be at Audyssey have any comment on Rich's rather startling opinion.

The article stated that "access to the PC software had been the sole domain of third-party installers", and "Anthem has broken this model". Is this true?
post #61513 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post


The article stated that "access to the PC software had been the sole domain of third-party installers", and "Anthem has broken this model". Is this true?

I do not think so.  Almost from the beginning, Audyssey sold Pro kits to private individuals.  Of course, Anthem never made any restrictions or even implied them.

post #61514 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Typically there could be two likely causes for this:

1) There is a blown driver in one of the speakers
2) There is something weird going on with your room acoustics

In both cases, a massive dip in the ~200Hz range will cause Audyssey to think your speaker rolls off around there. On Denons, the only crossover choice above 200Hz is 250Hz, so for whatever reason Audyssey is "hearing" the -3dB point of at least one of the speakers in that 200-250Hz range. It only takes one speaker, because crossovers can only be set by speaker pair.

As a test, try pulling the speakers out to a different position and re-running. To speed up the process you only need to do 2-3 measurements and then let it calculate and you can view the "parameter check" screen to verify the new crossover.

Also, make sure the "jumper" is securely connected between the upper/lower binding posts. If the low frequency posts are not getting a signal, the woofers will not fire.


I have been trying to get online for the past few days but unfortunately work has been keeping me late. Let me first start off by thanking you for your helpful tip and taking your time in helping me solve this problem.

To try and solve my weird 250Hz crossover problem I played around with Audyssey earlier and tried experimenting. I pushed the twin towers back towards the wall from about 6 inches to about two inches and saw my crossover adjust to about 200Hz. I then toe'd in the towers towards the Main Listening Position and saw a nice drop to 110Hz. But that is as low as I could get it even after changing the 1st Audyssey microphone placement several times hoping that I was just hitting a null. I racked my brain trying to figure out what the heck is going on and so I looked around the room to see if there was any furniture in the room that might be affecting my measurements. Sure enough, a child's chair that I had bought my daughter a few months ago must have been in a "sweet spot" and throwing off all of my measurements because I removed the chair from the room and re-ran Audyssey. Boom. Instantly. Crossovers for the fronts: 40Hz. I was amazed that such a small chair could affect the room acoustics so much. Of course I have since raised the crossover to 100Hz but wanted to let everyone know that the world is good again the now I can start to REALLY enjoy my movie collection.
post #61515 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorPharm View Post

I was amazed that such a small chair could affect the room acoustics so much.

That makes at least two of us that are amazed. Was the chair in a corner, near a wall, or away from boundaries in the middle of the room?

Any chance you have measuring gear to record that change?
post #61516 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post

The article stated that "access to the PC software had been the sole domain of third-party installers", and "Anthem has broken this model". Is this true?

As Kal says, many, probably most these days, Audyssey Pro users are not professional installers. Most are audiophiles, like me or kbarnes or many others in this thread and also at the Audyssy Pro thread. Pro is available for purchase by audiophiles from installers, regional distributors or directly from Audyssey.

Like a number of things in Rich's article, I get the impression that Rich is not as knowledgable about Audyssey as he ought to be in publishing what he did. I find all of his conclusions about Audyssey, therefore, somewhat suspect. On the other hand, his review of ARC is very good, based on my experience with it on friend's systems.
post #61517 of 70896
Anyone ever heard of the company "Home Theater Guru"? Ever read their article: Audyssey MultEQ Comparison To Manual Audio Calibration ( http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=3218 )

I think I would never buy anything from such a company who has so many misunderstandings in one single article. Time for them to read the FAQ! Letter by letter, so to speak! smile.gif

Have fun reading on a slow Wednesday evening! smile.gif
post #61518 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Anyone ever heard of the company "Home Theater Guru"? Ever read their article: Audyssey MultEQ Comparison To Manual Audio Calibration ( http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=3218 )

I think I would never buy anything from such a company who has so many misunderstandings in one single article. Time for them to read the FAQ! Letter by letter, so to speak! smile.gif

Have fun reading on a slow Wednesday evening! smile.gif

 

Can you re-post the link please, Feri. I'd like to have a look. Thanks.

post #61519 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Can you re-post the link please, Feri. I'd like to have a look. Thanks.

Is it working now Keith?
post #61520 of 70896

No posts in over 24 hours?  confused.gif

 

Has everyone switched to a new hobby, or is something wrong with AVS?

post #61521 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

No posts in over 24 hours?  confused.gif

Has everyone switched to a new hobby, or is something wrong with AVS?

Nothing to ask,...FAQ is soooo good! smile.gif
post #61522 of 70896
Hi,

i received an ONKYO TX-NR818 today. I bought it because of Audyssey XT32... My old Denon AVR2312 has only Audyssey XT and i want to try XT32... After making the measuring on 8 positions on a tripod it sounds very nice. From my point of view the speakers sounds better then with the Denon (XT)... I have a simple question. On The Denon menu i can go to Audyssey and "Check EQ". There i saw the EQ from Audyssey and Audyssey Flat curves.... At the ONKYO i can't find this point? I can select between Audyssey Movie and Music. Can anybody help me?

Thank you.
Regards,
Ben
post #61523 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyTurbo View Post

Hi,

i received an ONKYO TX-NR818 today. I bought it because of Audyssey XT32... My old Denon AVR2312 has only Audyssey XT and i want to try XT32... After making the measuring on 8 positions on a tripod it sounds very nice. From my point of view the speakers sounds better then with the Denon (XT)... I have a simple question. On The Denon menu i can go to Audyssey and "Check EQ". There i saw the EQ from Audyssey and Audyssey Flat curves.... At the ONKYO i can't find this point? I can select between Audyssey Movie and Music. Can anybody help me?

Thank you.
Regards,
Ben

 

If you are talking about viewing the EQ graphs, I think this feature is exclusive to Denon.

post #61524 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyTurbo View Post

Hi,

i received an ONKYO TX-NR818 today. I bought it because of Audyssey XT32... My old Denon AVR2312 has only Audyssey XT and i want to try XT32... After making the measuring on 8 positions on a tripod it sounds very nice. From my point of view the speakers sounds better then with the Denon (XT)... I have a simple question. On The Denon menu i can go to Audyssey and "Check EQ". There i saw the EQ from Audyssey and Audyssey Flat curves.... At the ONKYO i can't find this point? I can select between Audyssey Movie and Music. Can anybody help me?

Thank you.
Regards,
Ben

Denon's Audyssey = Onkyo Audyssey Movie

Denon's Audyssey Flat = Onkyo Audyssey Music

post #61525 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

That makes at least two of us that are amazed. Was the chair in a corner, near a wall, or away from boundaries in the middle of the room?

Any chance you have measuring gear to record that change?

Unfortunately I do not have any gear to take graphs or measurements of the room. I can say that the chari is meant for children so it is only about 2.5 ft. tall and it was located near the middle of the room, away from walls and corners and just touching my couches. It was approximately 2 ft. to the left and one foot to the front of the 1st microphone position. Maybe it was something else in the room but after taking many measurements and getting crazy results, I removed the chair and nothing else and instantly all the numbers fell into place. If I had not been the one measuring myself I probably wouldn't believe it!
post #61526 of 70896
When setting up dual subs with Aud using XT32, with the OSD asking to put the sub at 75 is it best to do each individual sub say at 72 or 73 rather than each one at 75dB. That way of course the combine dB with both subs on isn't hitting 81 an possibly giving you a very low level trim? Is there any best practice when doing this?
post #61527 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

When setting up dual subs with Aud using XT32, with the OSD asking to put the sub at 75 is it best to do each individual sub say at 72 or 73 rather than each one at 75dB. That way of course the combine dB with both subs on isn't hitting 81 an possibly giving you a very low level trim? Is there any best practice when doing this?

I have 2 identical subwoofers. What I did was to set up each subwoofer at 75db individually. Then when both are switched on, the combined db was 80 & i left the 80db intact. Audyssey set the trim at -4.5 & I also left the "-4.5" as it is.
post #61528 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

No posts in over 24 hours?  confused.gif

 

Has everyone switched to a new hobby, or is something wrong with AVS?

 

:)  I've been very busy with other stuff. We are having a horse crisis - he has a hairline fracture of a small bone in his foot and has to have 12 weeks of rest. All dressage competitions cancelled. Much to-ing and fro-ing with vet and farrier, who has designed and made him a special shoe to take the strain off the bone. He is also confined to stable which is driving him nuts.  Other than that, all normal here.

 

I guess Spring isn’t the favourite time for people to have Audyssey problems. Or maybe the FAQ is answering everything <fbg>.

post #61529 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post

I have 2 identical subwoofers. What I did was to set up each subwoofer at 75db individually. Then when both are switched on, the combined db was 80 & i left the 80db intact. Audyssey set the trim at -4.5 & I also left the "-4.5" as it is.
hi, i am wondering how you did to set up each subwoofer to 75db? i have dual sub to, different brands. but i am curious how do you set up your sub to reach 75db? by adjusting the gain volume of the sub while listening at Main listening position?
post #61530 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

hi, i am wondering how you did to set up each subwoofer to 75db? i have dual sub to, different brands. but i am curious how do you set up your sub to reach 75db? by adjusting the gain volume of the sub while listening at Main listening position?
It depends on your version of Audyssey - Ethan and I have Onkyo receivers with 2 sub connections. When Audyssey runs, it uses the mic to prompt the user to adjust the sub(s) to 75db on the screen. When the adjustment is complete, Audyssey runs its routine. You can do the same thing if you have 2 subs connected with a y cable.
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