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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2061

post #61801 of 70911
^^ Just wondering if the normalization process would have the same effect if the subwoofer gain in question were set differently. Right now, mo949's sub gain is set at 3, and this allows Audyssey to hit calibration with -0.5 dB trim. If he set the sub's gain to add, say, 6 dB (or more), then the trim would shift to -6.5 dB. Would that in any way reduce Audyssey's applied normalization gain?
post #61802 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

^^ Just wondering if the normalization process would have the same effect if the subwoofer gain in question were set differently. Right now, mo949's sub gain is set at 3, and this allows Audyssey to hit calibration with -0.5 dB trim. If he set the sub's gain to add, say, 6 dB (or more), then the trim would shift to -6.5 dB. Would that in any way reduce Audyssey's applied normalization gain?

That's a great question. Way ahead of me. I was just reading through the history and was starting to wonder what upping or lowering Gain on the sub would do to the process.
post #61803 of 70911
Roger -- from my (admittedly limited) understanding, it doesn't seem like that would have any impact. The normalization has to do with correcting for the change in perceived sub level due to the room EQ. If you raise the sub gain, and Audyssey thus sets a lower sub level trim, it won't change the room acoustics will it? There would still be the same "gap" between the pre/post EQ level due to the EQ filtering, right?
post #61804 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

quite simple really, just get something that will Highpass your sub around its 18hz f3 point and the problem is fixed.

Feri, why in the world would you post a quote from a room correction system that shares virtually nothing with Audyssey's approach?

simple is to try and build/buy a highpass at 18hz? Do you have a link to an 18hz high pass I can buy? thankfully I don't need to buy a new sub too....

Let's start with the easiest thing to do, adjust your phase on the speaker and re-rerun audyssey to see if that helps out anything (you might be surprised here that it might actually work!) Try 0,90, and 180 degrees. That knob is on the back of your sub.

Next try putting the sub in another location and repeat step one if necessary and see what happens

Last step would be to put something in between your avr and the sub to put a steep cut on the response below 16-18hz and hopefully prevent the driver from behaving as it is, and so Audyssey will read a different f3 point and not try to filter where it shouldn't be. Something like the Behringer mic220 would be able to do it pretty easily, but I truly am surprised there isn't some type of protection circuitry or HighPass Filter already built into the sub. Almost all commercial offerings have this to do just as it says, protect the sub. It could even be that this filter in the sub has somehow malfunctioned but I highly doubt we need to travel down that path...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Feri, why in the world would you post a quote from a room correction system that shares virtually nothing with Audyssey's approach?


Good question beastaudio, because some people here say it's impossible. But if Trinnov can solve it with convolution (inverse filtering), then why couldn't Audyssey solve it? Big question! smile.gif

The question is not 'why couldn't they?' but 'why didn't they?'  Trinnov can do a lot of things Audyssey can't - from what I have read about it. I'd really like to give it a try. The main problem is that it isn’t implemented in any AVR/AVP that I want to own.

Trinnov in it's fullest form is a $20,000 plus system. That is why Audyssey won't be able to do the same thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

^^ Just wondering if the normalization process would have the same effect if the subwoofer gain in question were set differently. Right now, mo949's sub gain is set at 3, and this allows Audyssey to hit calibration with -0.5 dB trim. If he set the sub's gain to add, say, 6 dB (or more), then the trim would shift to -6.5 dB. Would that in any way reduce Audyssey's applied normalization gain?

Nope, it would just simply shift the gain structure around somewhat...
post #61805 of 70911
Hi Beastaudio. Appreciate the input, but wanted to clarify that the sub does have a built in filter that is working correctly (which is why the warning to the average consumer)....the issue is that Audyssey is boosting the range being 'rolled off' below 18hz and therefore is defeating the point of the filter in the first place and offsetting it. The technician and I confirmed this with test tones from 0 - 20hz with audyssey set to OFF. With audyssey OFF the sub rolled off the tones perfectly with no audible issues below 20hz with the receiver set to reference volume (0.0), so nothing has malfunctioned in the sub thankfully.


Batpig, I think I am going to try the highpass approach with these http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=266-246 filters that cutoff at 20hz. I'm just going to assume I won't miss the 18-20hz range that will get rolled off. I spoke with the technician and he said that should work provided I don't neglect to do one thing and that is that when I run Audyssey room setup that I do so with the RCA highpass not connected in line. He explained that would prevent audyssey from further boosting the below 20hz range to try and defeat 'both' filters. So in some ways I am just replacing the filtering that audyssee defeated in its calibration and losing 2hz of range as the tradeoff.

The reasoning for jumping straight to this approach is that I really love the way everything sounds right now and the issue is only in movies that hit those below 20hz LFE effects. Also, where my sub sits is part of the WAF biggrin.gif

Thanks for the detailed explanation of what was going on!
post #61806 of 70911
I wouldn't worry about "missing" the 18-20Hz range, remember that it's not a brick wall, it's a filter with a slope (12dB/octave according to the specs) so there will still be plenty of output between 18-20Hz.
post #61807 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Hi Beastaudio. Appreciate the input, but wanted to clarify that the sub does have a built in filter that is working correctly (which is why the warning to the average consumer)....the issue is that Audyssey is boosting the range being 'rolled off' below 18hz and therefore is defeating the point of the filter in the first place and offsetting it. The technician and I confirmed this with test tones from 0 - 20hz with audyssey set to OFF. With audyssey OFF the sub rolled off the tones perfectly with no audible issues below 20hz with the receiver set to reference volume (0.0), so nothing has malfunctioned in the sub thankfully.


Batpig, I think I am going to try the highpass approach with these http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=266-246 filters that cutoff at 20hz. I'm just going to assume I won't miss the 18-20hz range that will get rolled off. I spoke with the technician and he said that should work provided I don't neglect to do one thing and that is that when I run Audyssey room setup that I do so with the RCA highpass not connected in line. He explained that would prevent audyssey from further boosting the below 20hz range to try and defeat 'both' filters. So in some ways I am just replacing the filtering that audyssee defeated in its calibration and losing 2hz of range as the tradeoff.

The reasoning for jumping straight to this approach is that I really love the way everything sounds right now and the issue is only in movies that hit those below 20hz LFE effects. Also, where my sub sits is part of the WAF biggrin.gif

Thanks for the detailed explanation of what was going on!

Hi mo949, I think there is something wrong with this approach. If the sub has a built in filter and you put the parts-express high pass pad in the chain you are actually putting two filters in series and not replacing the filter Audyssey "defeated". I doubt that would solve the problem you are having now with the boost below "roll off". Neither Audyssey, nor you can defeat and offset that built-in filter in any way.

I think your problem lies somewhere else, but where it is I can not figure out yet. eek.gif
post #61808 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Roger -- from my (admittedly limited) understanding, it doesn't seem like that would have any impact. The normalization has to do with correcting for the change in perceived sub level due to the room EQ. If you raise the sub gain, and Audyssey thus sets a lower sub level trim, it won't change the room acoustics will it? There would still be the same "gap" between the pre/post EQ level due to the EQ filtering, right?
Your logic is completely sound. But I'm just not 100% sure the flaw in Audyssey follows such solid logic. wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

That's a great question. Way ahead of me. I was just reading through the history and was starting to wonder what upping or lowering Gain on the sub would do to the process.
No harm in trying. At worst, it makes zero difference (apart from displayed trim values).
post #61809 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I wouldn't worry about "missing" the 18-20Hz range, remember that it's not a brick wall, it's a filter with a slope (12dB/octave according to the specs) so there will still be plenty of output between 18-20Hz.

thanks, btw I did understand your normalisation comments but I didn't bring it up to the technician. I believe I could use the highpass filter and still run the mic tests etc in the future without worrying since if I understood correctly, the boost to my subsonic range isn't a result of specific measuresments and adjustments to that range by audyssey, but a blanket offset of the entire spectrum (within subwoofer ranges) which includes the subsonic portion to offset peak normalization in other areas of the spectrum. But sometimes safer than sorrier right biggrin.gif



Mogorf, when you solve it, let me know! biggrin.gif The 'defeated' part I wrote was in reference to audyssey instructing the receiver to increase DB's in the signal to my sub for the portion of sub sonic frequency that the sub's filter was trying to roll off.




btw, now I really really know more than I ever wanted to biggrin.gif
post #61810 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi mo949, I think there is something wrong with this approach. If the sub has a built in filter and you put the parts-express high pass pad in the chain you are actually putting two filters in series and not replacing the filter Audyssey "defeated". I doubt that would solve the problem you are having now with the boost below "roll off". Neither Audyssey, nor you can defeat and offset that built-in filter in any way.

I don't understand your objection. He WANTS to put a second filter in series, not "replace" the filter in the sub. The problem is that (for whatever reason) after running Audyssey he is getting too much boost below 20Hz. His solution is to insert a 20Hz HPF in the chain AFTER running Audyssey. Why would adding this 2nd filter not reduce the output below 20Hz?

Problem: After running Audyssey, sub is being asked to put out too much output below 20Hz, to the point that the sub is at risk of being damaged.
Solution: Insert a 20Hz HPF into the signal chain after running Audyssey.

So what's the objection?
post #61811 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

thanks, btw I did understand your normalisation comments but I didn't bring it up to the technician.

Just to be clear, my theory is just that, a hypothesis based on the experience of others. It's possible that's NOT the issue. If you had some way to measure the subwoofer pre-out and produce a graph like the one I posted above, that would help to confirm/disconfirm the cause.
post #61812 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I don't understand your objection. He WANTS to put a second filter in series, not "replace" the filter in the sub. The problem is that (for whatever reason) after running Audyssey he is getting too much boost below 20Hz. His solution is to insert a 20Hz HPF in the chain AFTER running Audyssey. Why would adding this 2nd filter not reduce the output below 20Hz?

Becasue I see no guarantee that by doubling the filters in-line would not make Audyssey boost even more. It can easily be a push-pull game till one side is exhausted. More attenuation may cause Audyssey to show more muscles. We'll see. cool.gif
post #61813 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Just to be clear, my theory is just that, a hypothesis based on the experience of others. It's possible that's NOT the issue. If you had some way to measure the subwoofer pre-out and produce a graph like the one I posted above, that would help to confirm/disconfirm the cause.

bp, do you have some reference for the Denon-1612 as regards to fixation of the sub boost?
post #61814 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I don't understand your objection. He WANTS to put a second filter in series, not "replace" the filter in the sub. The problem is that (for whatever reason) after running Audyssey he is getting too much boost below 20Hz. His solution is to insert a 20Hz HPF in the chain AFTER running Audyssey. Why would adding this 2nd filter not reduce the output below 20Hz?

Becasue I see no guarantee that by doubling the filters in-line would not make Audyssey boost even more. It can easily be a push-pull game till one side is exhausted. More attenuation may cause Audyssey to show more muscles. We'll see. cool.gif

No, read again. The 2nd filter will be placed in-line AFTER running Audyssey. Obviously putting the filter in line before running Audyssey would cause what you describe, as he already was aware of because he noted this explicitly in his post:

Quote:
I spoke with the technician and he said that should work provided I don't neglect to do one thing and that is that when I run Audyssey room setup that I do so with the RCA highpass not connected in line. He explained that would prevent audyssey from further boosting the below 20hz range to try and defeat 'both' filters.
post #61815 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Just to be clear, my theory is just that, a hypothesis based on the experience of others. It's possible that's NOT the issue. If you had some way to measure the subwoofer pre-out and produce a graph like the one I posted above, that would help to confirm/disconfirm the cause.

bp, do you have some reference for the Denon-1612 as regards to fixation of the sub boost?

Nope.
post #61816 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Becasue I see no guarantee that by doubling the filters in-line would not make Audyssey boost even more. It can easily be a push-pull game till one side is exhausted. More attenuation may cause Audyssey to show more muscles. We'll see. cool.gif

Mogorf, you are missing one 'magic' ingredient. The audyssey will not boost more because it will never learn of the second filters existence wink.gif What I was proposing is to let audyssey 'do its thing' then afterwards putting on the second filter. Without rerunning any other setups etc audyssey will have no clue that a filter is placed on the RCA line right before my sub amp.

Batpig, your hypothesis is as good as any. IF I had the right equipment I would gladly test it for you. All we can say for certain is that Audyssey is sending too much signal to the subsonic low end and that can surely result in subwoofer damage. Whether its attempting to 'correct' the subsonic end or just a result of a blanket boost is still up in the air.

Thanks everyone for your help.

I'll report back when I've received my new highpass next week.
post #61817 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

No, read again. The 2nd filter will be placed in-line AFTER running Audyssey. Obviously putting the filter in line before running Audyssey would cause what you describe, as he already was aware of because he noted this explicitly in his post:

bp, after running Audyssey normaly one would/should not insert anything into the chain. Surely I wouldn't. eek.gif
post #61818 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

bp, after running Audyssey normaly one would/should not insert anything into the chain. Surely I wouldn't. eek.gif

if it protects your 1000$ sub from getting damaged you would smile.gif
post #61819 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

if it protects your 1000$ sub from getting damaged you would smile.gif

Did you try to place your sub at a different location to see what happens to the boost?
post #61820 of 70911
i have klipsh rw 12d sub, i see that it has 3 choices i can choose, before running the audysey which one i need to use, FLAT, PUNCH, DEPTH?
post #61821 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Did you try to place your sub at a different location to see what happens to the boost?

I get very little free time at home. Everytime I run audyssey for all 6 positions it takes a while and eats up a whole evening where I kick my wife out of the living room....my needless to say I try to avoid that. I have a corner that it is in and can theoretically move the sub a few inches in any direction, but anything more than that won't fit my wife's design aesthetic. I may run it again when i receive my hipass next week since the highpass itself appears to be a few inches long and may necessitate me moving the sub a few inches forward to accomodate it. After that point, I'll make sure to see if the sub is still boosted in the 'no no' zones before putting the highpass on. I believe it would be about 6 inches from the wall at that point as well.

If the room gain from placing the sub in the corner is making peaks that get tamed and then a normalisation is peanut buttered on afterwards, that would kind of mean that I should try and move my sub away from the sweet spot where I get all the room gain my sub manual tells me to try and achieve, right? Aren't you typically wanting the sub in a corner if you only have one?
post #61822 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

i have klipsh rw 12d sub, i see that it has 3 choices i can choose, before running the audysey which one i need to use, FLAT, PUNCH, DEPTH?

FLAT. Remember that Audyssey is trying to calibrate your sub's response to flat, so if you set it to another setting then Audyssey will just expend resources trying to calibrate out the "bumps" that the built in EQ is putting in. If you want to tweak the sub's response after running Audyssey then you can use one of the other settings.
post #61823 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

bp, after running Audyssey normaly one would/should not insert anything into the chain. Surely I wouldn't. eek.gif

Why not? What harm would be caused by using an HPF at 20Hz to cut off the subsonic frequencies if his sub can't handle it?
post #61824 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I get very little free time at home. Everytime I run audyssey for all 6 positions it takes a while and eats up a whole evening where I kick my wife out of the living room....my needless to say I try to avoid that. I have a corner that it is in and can theoretically move the sub a few inches in any direction, but anything more than that won't fit my wife's design aesthetic. I may run it again when i receive my hipass next week since the highpass itself appears to be a few inches long and may necessitate me moving the sub a few inches forward to accomodate it. After that point, I'll make sure to see if the sub is still boosted in the 'no no' zones before putting the highpass on. I believe it would be about 6 inches from the wall at that point as well.

If you follow your technician's advice and insert the high-pass after Audyssey, then you don't really need to re-run Audyssey, just insert it when it arrives. You may not even need to move the sub a few inches if you insert the highpass at the AVR's suboutput provided you have enough room at the back side. Result will be the same smile.gif
Quote:
If the room gain from placing the sub in the corner is making peaks that get tamed and then a normalisation is peanut buttered on afterwards, that would kind of mean that I should try and move my sub away from the sweet spot where I get all the room gain my sub manual tells me to try and achieve, right? Aren't you typically wanting the sub in a corner if you only have one?

I typicall don't want a single sub in the corner, and I'm afraid I'm not the only one here. cool.gif
post #61825 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

FLAT. Remember that Audyssey is trying to calibrate your sub's response to flat, so if you set it to another setting then Audyssey will just expend resources trying to calibrate out the "bumps" that the built in EQ is putting in. If you want to tweak the sub's response after running Audyssey then you can use one of the other settings.
i see. in other words, set it to FLAT before running the aud. and after running aud. it is safe to changed it to PUNCH, DEPTH? wichever it suits me, and it doesnt affect the aud. result?
post #61826 of 70911
Think of it this way: Audyssey is setting your speakers to "flat" reference baseline. If, after calibration, you want to deviate from that reference, it won't hurt anything. It just means your starting point is a known "reference" that you can always return to.

I assume the PUNCH/DEPTH settings are just EQ settings that change the "shape" of the subwoofer response, so using them after calibration (which will give you that "flat" starting point) is fine, but turning them on BEFORE running calibration means Audyssey will just be working against them.
post #61827 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Think of it this way: Audyssey is setting your speakers to "flat" reference baseline. If, after calibration, you want to deviate from that reference, it won't hurt anything. It just means your starting point is a known "reference" that you can always return to.

I assume the PUNCH/DEPTH settings are just EQ settings that change the "shape" of the subwoofer response, so using them after calibration (which will give you that "flat" starting point) is fine, but turning them on BEFORE running calibration means Audyssey will just be working against them.
gotcha. thanks again sir Batpig. youre the Man.
post #61828 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Why not? What harm would be caused by using an HPF at 20Hz to cut off the subsonic frequencies if his sub can't handle it?

May cause attenuation even in the pass area, i.e. above 20 Hz. I just checked Harrison Labs homepage, but there is no mentioning about that which makes me curious why? That will mean the sub trim will need to be rechecked and readjusted by at least an SPL meter or maybe sublte, I dunno. And can cause unwanted phase issues. Any curve that is not flat will shift phase (in Laymans), which means in this case below the 20 Hz limit. I know this may sound like a pedantric approach, but think about it a bit, please. You may have valuable extention of your excellent sub even below 20 Hz which might play loud, but not flat and can be out of phase.
post #61829 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Trinnov in it's fullest form is a $20,000 plus system. That is why Audyssey won't be able to do the same thing
 

They put a serviceable Trinnov system in a mid-priced Sherwood AVR a few years ago, so it is doable.

post #61830 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I don't understand your objection. He WANTS to put a second filter in series, not "replace" the filter in the sub. The problem is that (for whatever reason) after running Audyssey he is getting too much boost below 20Hz. His solution is to insert a 20Hz HPF in the chain AFTER running Audyssey. Why would adding this 2nd filter not reduce the output below 20Hz?

Becasue I see no guarantee that by doubling the filters in-line would not make Audyssey boost even more. It can easily be a push-pull game till one side is exhausted. More attenuation may cause Audyssey to show more muscles. We'll see. cool.gif

Even if you had BOTH in before audyssey ran, the two filters will couple and Audyssey's muscle might be a bit "Atrophied" by attempting to filter out a 24db or possibly even more rolloff. Audyssey can't effectively boost to the moon, but I can flapjack a driver if you aren't careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

i have klipsh rw 12d sub, i see that it has 3 choices i can choose, before running the audysey which one i need to use, FLAT, PUNCH, DEPTH?

My guess is the Depth is an approach where you will sacrifice a little midbass spl for a more extended low end, while Punch will rolloff the lower freqs more and create more capability overall in the 20-30hz area. I agree with BP that starting with it flat is the perfect approach however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Did you try to place your sub at a different location to see what happens to the boost?

I get very little free time at home. Everytime I run audyssey for all 6 positions it takes a while and eats up a whole evening where I kick my wife out of the living room....my needless to say I try to avoid that. I have a corner that it is in and can theoretically move the sub a few inches in any direction, but anything more than that won't fit my wife's design aesthetic. I may run it again when i receive my hipass next week since the highpass itself appears to be a few inches long and may necessitate me moving the sub a few inches forward to accomodate it. After that point, I'll make sure to see if the sub is still boosted in the 'no no' zones before putting the highpass on. I believe it would be about 6 inches from the wall at that point as well.

If the room gain from placing the sub in the corner is making peaks that get tamed and then a normalisation is peanut buttered on afterwards, that would kind of mean that I should try and move my sub away from the sweet spot where I get all the room gain my sub manual tells me to try and achieve, right? Aren't you typically wanting the sub in a corner if you only have one?

Corner loading doesn't necessarily give you the best output however, it is just more common than not. Anytime you move a sub towards another wall you get acoustic coupling that will create more capability, but that doesn't always equate out to capability and a flat response to start with. Is it a good place to start? Sure, but if it aint working, it isn't a stopping point. Take this with a grain as far as the WAF goes, This is also coming from a guy with two 6 foot tall line sources in the living room that don't fit in ONE bit, but so far, I haven't gotten any flack from the better half, so there they shall stay!
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