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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2066

post #61951 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

ezrangel,

Here's the placement guide for the wide speakers from Audyssey that might work better in your setup;

"The ideal location for the Wide speakers is along the side walls at 60° out from the center channel. To find the right spot, measure the distance from the center speaker to the left speaker. Then double it. That's where the Left Wide speaker should be placed. Repeat for the right side. The idea is to separate the Wides from the main left and right speakers so that their content is clearly coming from a different (wider) direction."

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2010/05/a-practical-guide-to-audyssey-dsx

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Patrick, the OP's left and right speakers are practically against the side walls, so it would be difficult to accomplish what the guideline recommends.
I read that guide and it doesnt make sense in a so narrow room. If I do what it says, my wides will be nowhere close to the 60 degree spot! But, it makes me think: does the 60 degree rule only aplies if the frontals are at the correct 30 degree angle position? In my case, the frontals are in a much tighter angle, should the wides be in a tighter angle too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Well, that's not going to help. I was going to suggest something more radical, like moving the seating a couple meters forward.
If you blow across an empty Coke bottle, you can get that small chamber to resonate. Enlarge that space to your 540x282 cm room, and that chamber will still resonate (produce strong peaks & dips at certain frequencies). For your room width, those frequencies will be at 61Hz, 122Hz, 183Hz, 244Hz and 305Hz. You can eliminate the first one by placing your subwoofer at the middle of room width, either on the front wall and/or middle of the back wall (if you have a 2nd sub). The rest of those width resonances can be cancelled by spreading your front L/R speakers 188cm apart. This will give you smoother sound across your entire seating.

The problem with having your speakers only 188cm apart is that you could end up with a really pinched soundstage. The way to avoid that is by moving your seating forward and/or moving the speakers towards the seats. For example: you currently have a tiny 36° soundstage; moving 2.25m from the speaker plane would give you a 45° soundstage and moving 2m from the speakers would result in a 50° soundstage. You can see where I'm going with this: if you want anything close to the speaker angles that Audyssey recommends, your entire set-up would occupy only the front half of your room. That would give you much more consistent spacing between your fronts, wides, sides and rears. Currently you have your fronts far away from you and the rest of the speaker pairs clustered around your seating, with a big open gap in between.
Thank you for the interesting calculations on the frequecies.
Unfortunately, moving the cough to the front enough to get the right angle on the frontals is not an option! But, if I did, the distance between left and right surrounds and the wide would be the same. Both speakers on each side would move towards the front iqually.
My only hope is, as I described above, if the wides could be closer to the frontals becouse the tighter angle between them. If not, maybe I would use just the height channels...
Another question, even if everything works and I could install the wide speakers properlly, they will be small satelite speakers, is that a problem?
post #61952 of 70906
Enlighten us--why is moving the couch forward something that you won't consider? You have received feedback from a number of people stating that this is the best option in a room shaped like yours.
post #61953 of 70906
I'm sorry. Of course, I consider every opinion, but my wife doesnt!
post #61954 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezrangel View Post

I'm sorry. Of course, I consider every opinion, but my wife doesnt!
Some are all alone in their HT.
post #61955 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezrangel View Post

Unfortunately, moving the cough to the front enough to get the right angle on the frontals is not an option!
You had already mentioned that the most you could move the couch forward was about 4 inches. But, since you had asked what I would do with the speakers, I thought I would explain what was possible in your room (knowing it wasn't feasable in your situation).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezrangel View Post

But, if I did, the distance between left and right surrounds and the wide would be the same. Both speakers on each side would move towards the front iqually.
Sure, but if you can't get consistent spacing by spreading your other speakers further apart (due to room width), then the alternative is to get that consistency by moving closer to the front speakers (or moving the front speakers closer).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezrangel View Post

If not, maybe I would use just the height channels...
Another question, even if everything works and I could install the wide speakers properlly, they will be small satelite speakers, is that a problem?
Small satellite speakers will work, but try to find ones that sound similar to your front speakers (from the same manufacturer, same speaker line, etc). BTW, given the choice between wides and heights, I would do the latter. YMMV.
post #61956 of 70906
OK so I'm running A-DSX Height from my Denon 3312. When I have a 6.1, or better dts or Dolby soundtrack, what happens to the Surround Back content?
post #61957 of 70906
The fact that you are running heights isn't really relevant. Anything with more than 5.1 channels is designed to be backwards compatible with 5.1 systems. Surr back content is folded back into the two surround channels. DSX then operates on the 5.1 content.
post #61958 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The fact that you are running heights isn't really relevant. Anything with more than 5.1 channels is designed to be backwards compatible with 5.1 systems. Surr back content is folded back into the two surround channels. DSX then operates on the 5.1 content.

Thanks, so when I have a choice of dts 5.1 or 7.1, which should I choose, or does it make a differ?
Edited by SanchoPanza - 5/8/13 at 6:14pm
post #61959 of 70906
Hi. I'm looking for some advice/opinions on rear speaker placement. I will be installing a Denon 4520 7.2 set-up in my basement. My rear wall is 17' from the front wall & screen. Front and side speakers will be about 10' apart with the sides about 12' from the front wall. Front and rear speakers are in-wall Triads and the side speakers are in-wall surround Triads to be mounted in the ceiling. My problem is that I have a 4' wide hallway on the rear wall that only allows me to have the rear in-wall speakers mounted either (1) about 12' apart at the same height , or (2) about 7 - 8' apart but would require mounting the right rear speaker inside the bulkhead which will span the hallway (about 4" from ceiling) and the left rear speaker mounted 10" lower due to an HVAC duct that extends down 10" lower than the rest of the ceiling. I'm trying to determine what the better tradeoff would be: (1) evenly spaced rear speakers that are 12' apart installed at the same height or evenly spaced rear speakers that are 7 - 8' apart but one installed 10" lower than the other. Seating will be 5' in front of the rear wall and 12' back from the front wall. Any advice is greatly appreciated. I'm hoping that the Audyssey XT 32 of the Denon will adjust for either set-up but am looking for the best solution. Thx.
post #61960 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyb12345 View Post

I'm trying to determine what the better tradeoff would be: (1) evenly spaced rear speakers that are 12' apart installed at the same height or evenly spaced rear speakers that are 7 - 8' apart but one installed 10" lower than the other. Seating will be 5' in front of the rear wall and 12' back from the front wall.
12' apart would give your rear speakers over a 100° spread, which puts them a little too close to the sides for there to be meaningful rear-vs-side separation in the surround field. I would put them 7-8' apart, even if one is 10" lower than the other. Our human hearing is not so precise behind us, so I doubt you'd notice such a small discrepency.
post #61961 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani 
BTW, given the choice between wides and heights, I would do the latter.

Hi, sdurani

Just curious. Why given the choice between wides and heights, you would do the latter, i.e. Heights?

Thanks.
post #61962 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani 
BTW, given the choice between wides and heights, I would do the latter.

Hi, sdurani

Just curious. Why given the choice between wides and heights, you would do the latter, i.e. Heights?

Thanks.

Don't know about him, but I tried Height, Wide, & Surround Back, each in turn, with my Denon 3312, & liked A-DSX Height best, to my ears. Also, gives flexibility to use PLIIz. Used an old AVR to simulate Wides (Surround material, positioned as Wide) & provide real Surround Back.
post #61963 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post

Why given the choice between wides and heights, you would do the latter, i.e. Heights?
There's already lots of phantom imaging floating between front and side speakers, so wide speakers aren't necessary to hear sounds at that location. But the only way to get overhead imaging or a taller soundstage is to have speakers up there.
post #61964 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post

Why given the choice between wides and heights, you would do the latter, i.e. Heights?
There's already lots of phantom imaging floating between front and side speakers, so wide speakers aren't necessary to hear sounds at that location. But the only way to get overhead imaging or a taller soundstage is to have speakers up there.

Dolby Pro Logic IIz ONLY utilizes Heights. On t'other hand A-DSX sez Wides are Most important.
post #61965 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

Thanks, so when I have a choice of dts 5.1 or 7.1, which should I choose, or does it make a differ?
If you have a 5.1 system (one pair of surrounds), it does not matter.
post #61966 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

Thanks, so when I have a choice of dts 5.1 or 7.1, which should I choose, or does it make a differ?
If you have a 5.1 system (one pair of surrounds), it does not matter.

7.1 with Heights, with another 4, 2 Surround & 2 Surround Back, with an old AVR. So, in this case, I think it does matter, although not many soundtracks give that option.
post #61967 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

So, is 3 1/2 feet to the side of a corner and 3" from the wall, still considered 'corner placement'? I can get closer to the corner, but not further away than that.

Is that the current location or the suggested new location for the purpose of the test? 

You might also consider putting the sub in a totally different spot just for experimental purposes. I think that at this stage we are not trying to suggest a permanent, good spot for the sub, but rather trying to establish if the sub's location is causing the problem. 

Hi Kbarnes - thanks for your reply (and previous help). So that is the current location. I call it a corner since it is near one, but it is by no means actually in the corner. Also, all spots that I place the mic have clear line of sight to the sub's front firing speaker and I run the test at night to avoid overhead air activity in the day. I will be putting it in a different spot, rerunning audyssey, rerunning the base sweep and will report my findings. I am waiting on my highpass filter and will have a full evening of experimenting once it gets here. I have a very simple straightforward 5.1 setup - i have no doubt I'll find a solution that works; whether its elegant or not is another question.

OK, understood. The results of your further experiments will be of interest to all of us - please let us know when you have carried them out. 

post #61968 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezrangel View Post

Unfortunately, moving the cough to the front enough to get the right angle on the frontals is not an option!
You had already mentioned that the most you could move the couch forward was about 4 inches. But, since you had asked what I would do with the speakers, I thought I would explain what was possible in your room (knowing it wasn't feasable in your situation).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezrangel View Post

But, if I did, the distance between left and right surrounds and the wide would be the same. Both speakers on each side would move towards the front iqually.
Sure, but if you can't get consistent spacing by spreading your other speakers further apart (due to room width), then the alternative is to get that consistency by moving closer to the front speakers (or moving the front speakers closer).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezrangel View Post

If not, maybe I would use just the height channels...
Another question, even if everything works and I could install the wide speakers properlly, they will be small satelite speakers, is that a problem?
Small satellite speakers will work, but try to find ones that sound similar to your front speakers (from the same manufacturer, same speaker line, etc). BTW, given the choice between wides and heights, I would do the latter. YMMV.

 

 

Ezrangel, I am in a similar position and cannot really accommodate wides - but I find heights really add to the experience. My room is a little wider than yours and in such a restricted environment I even question whether wides would add much to the overall experience.  TBH, I would work on the WAF and see if you can get her to accept the couch being much further into the room. If the room is dedicated to HT only, then it should be easier - if it is a multipurpose room and doubles as your living room, I can see the problem though ;)  Whatever you decide to do, good luck!

post #61969 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post

Why given the choice between wides and heights, you would do the latter, i.e. Heights?
There's already lots of phantom imaging floating between front and side speakers, so wide speakers aren't necessary to hear sounds at that location. But the only way to get overhead imaging or a taller soundstage is to have speakers up there.

Dolby Pro Logic IIz ONLY utilizes Heights. On t'other hand A-DSX sez Wides are Most important.

 

They do, and they may be right for music. But for movies, Sanjay's logic is unassailable: your front and surround speakers will phantom-image between the two anyway (if set up well) - but the sole way to get height info is to have speakers up there.

post #61970 of 70906
Don't disagree with the logic, just stating the facts. Given a choice, my EARS voted for HEIGHTS.

My situation voted for Surround BACK & wides (simulated), too.
post #61971 of 70906
Hi,
Anybody knows about DSX2, what's the difference with DSX?
Any AVR comes with it?
Cheers,
post #61972 of 70906
The only difference is that DSX 2 can operate on a 2ch input, whereas with the original version of DSX you need a 5.1 input... thus relying on something like PLII to do the 2.0 > 5.1 upmix first. DSX 2 can take the 2ch signal and scale it all the way up without any help. But with a 5.1 input they are the same.

AFAIK no AVRs have it yet.
post #61973 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I followed Igor's posts with interest but without coming to a definite conclusion. IIRC he was saying that the problem he was experiencing was 818-dependent. Also, Igor was reporting the boost in the satellite channels not the subs, so it is likely not a normalisation issue at all.

Although I am certain that the issue is real (it has been described too often to be a figment of the imagination I think), as batpig says above, don't worry about it. It is rare and only happens with certain combinations of equipment and placement. The benefits of XT32 in general vastly outweigh the slim possibility that this will affect you. 

Thanks for your reply Keith. It is reassuring to know that this is rare. I'd like to try XT32, and was on the fence a long time for the 818; but the Denon X4000 looks even better, at least on paper. smile.gif

Luca
post #61974 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarracudaDelGato View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I followed Igor's posts with interest but without coming to a definite conclusion. IIRC he was saying that the problem he was experiencing was 818-dependent. Also, Igor was reporting the boost in the satellite channels not the subs, so it is likely not a normalisation issue at all.

Although I am certain that the issue is real (it has been described too often to be a figment of the imagination I think), as batpig says above, don't worry about it. It is rare and only happens with certain combinations of equipment and placement. The benefits of XT32 in general vastly outweigh the slim possibility that this will affect you. 

Thanks for your reply Keith. It is reassuring to know that this is rare. I'd like to try XT32, and was on the fence a long time for the 818; but the Denon X4000 looks even better, at least on paper. smile.gif

Luca

 

I am sure you would be absolutely delighted with XT32. Either of those units is a good buy IMO, so it mostly comes down to preference I think, or one may have some feature you want that is lacking on the other. I think you’d be happy with either of them TBH. I’d be happy to own either I think. AAMOI, does the Denon have amp preouts?  I know the Onk does - you might decide at some stage to add external amplification for example...

post #61975 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I am sure you would be absolutely delighted with XT32. Either of those units is a good buy IMO, so it mostly comes down to preference I think, or one may have some feature you want that is lacking on the other. I think you’d be happy with either of them TBH. I’d be happy to own either I think. AAMOI, does the Denon have amp preouts?  I know the Onk does - you might decide at some stage to add external amplification for example...

Yes, the x4000 has pre-outs, including 2 separate sub outputs (unlike the 818), and SubEQ HT. I have an Emotiva XPA-3 already for the three front channels. smile.gif
post #61976 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarracudaDelGato View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I am sure you would be absolutely delighted with XT32. Either of those units is a good buy IMO, so it mostly comes down to preference I think, or one may have some feature you want that is lacking on the other. I think you’d be happy with either of them TBH. I’d be happy to own either I think. AAMOI, does the Denon have amp preouts?  I know the Onk does - you might decide at some stage to add external amplification for example...

Yes, the x4000 has pre-outs, including 2 separate sub outputs (unlike the 818), and SubEQ HT. I have an Emotiva XPA-3 already for the three front channels. smile.gif

 

Excellent - the addition of SubEQ HT does give the Denon an advantage there for sure. With the Emo and the x4000 you will have the foundation of a very good system.

post #61977 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarracudaDelGato View Post

Keith, this "normalization" issue sounds to my layman ears like the "low frequency boost" issue that IgorZep was lamenting a while back in the Onkyo 818 thread. I'm just curious, as a potential buyer of product with Audyssey... not trying to stir the pot. smile.gif My apologies if the two issues are not related.

The "normalization" issue on subwoofer is not the issue I am having, what I have is the F3 detection issue on satellites, that essentially creates heavy boost bellow real acoustical F3. Whatever the reasons the boost is there and consequences are similar for sub and satellites - increased distortion and wear of speakers...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

But can you explain that graph, if normalisation is not causing the self-evident boost. What is your explanation?
Personally I believe there is no "normalization" issue at all, newer was. There was a bug in the first implementations of XT32 (and my be in another versions) and many people complained. The "normalization" is the first word that Chris was used when this appeared, so this word spread around. Later, under the pressure of the non-happy customers, the issue causing the boost was resolved with software update (but may be not completely and it still can happen under some circumstances or with some receivers), and Chris once answered it was not normalization, but was a bug (you can search the history here, I believe this was on this forum), but everyone still uses this word as a tradition to explain any boost produced by Audyssey in the low frequencies (and Chris tried this trick also for my issue).
Considering the graph discussed here for last two weeks, there is an easy explanation that the so called "normalization" is not the issue, at least is not the root issue, it is just a consequence of poor EQ in the first place. Let's remember school and try to think analytically, assume there is 9dB normalization boost applied to the curve at the last stage (as it is the value all subsonic frequencies are boosted by). Then simply move down the graph down 9dB, we will see the Audyssey curve before the normalization, i.e. EQ as is. How it looks? Do you see something strange? The one thing - there is no single boost in it, so, it is not that it applied boosts and cuts and it appeared that there more cuts than boosts. It simply cut EVERYTHING above F3 to different levels. Surely, if you "correct" this way you need to "normalize" heavily... But why on earth they correct it this way??? eek.gif
The real normalization based on the difference of mathematical weighting and acoustical/psychological one is usually very small, within 1-2dB... As it happens with my sub, it is less than 1dB measured...
post #61978 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarracudaDelGato View Post

Thanks for your reply Keith. It is reassuring to know that this is rare. I'd like to try XT32, and was on the fence a long time for the 818; but the Denon X4000 looks even better, at least on paper. smile.gif
I would really recommend you to try the receiver in your room to check how the calibration works before committing to buying. Especially if you are considering 818. While complaining about the issue is rare, there is no guarantee that the issue itself is rare, many people just don't care or can't compare (and it really sounds better than any boom-box even with this issue, it is just far from how it should actually sound). About the rarity, just the first other owner of 818 who measured it confirmed that he also have the issue, the similarities between our setups are just the 818 and the room size/layout and lack of acoustic treatments. And within that room it is 100% repeatable and on all satellites independent on placement, so I really doubt it is so rare you shouldn't worry about it at all. Better test in your room and compare with some other receiver if possible.
post #61979 of 70906
I have two subs but I want to use one for mid and upper bass and the other for only low. Do I run Audyssey with both subs set to OUT and then flip one to IN to kick in for low frequencies or do I have one set to IN and the other to OUT before running Audyssey? My avr has no subeq ht.
post #61980 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarracudaDelGato View Post

Thanks for your reply Keith. It is reassuring to know that this is rare. I'd like to try XT32, and was on the fence a long time for the 818; but the Denon X4000 looks even better, at least on paper. smile.gif
I would really recommend you to try the receiver in your room to check how the calibration works before committing to buying. Especially if you are considering 818. While complaining about the issue is rare, there is no guarantee that the issue itself is rare, many people just don't care or can't compare (and it really sounds better than any boom-box even with this issue, it is just far from how it should actually sound). About the rarity, just the first other owner of 818 who measured it confirmed that he also have the issue, the similarities between our setups are just the 818 and the room size/layout and lack of acoustic treatments. And within that room it is 100% repeatable and on all satellites independent on placement, so I really doubt it is so rare you shouldn't worry about it at all. Better test in your room and compare with some other receiver if possible.

 

I don't think it is as cut and dried as you imply, Igor. There are other knowledgeable users in the 818 thread (eg Markus) who disagree with you on your findings, or more precisely on the cause. A couple of reports aren’t enough IMO to come to a definitive conclusion, especially in the face of opposing and well-considered opinions.  IIRC you also asked both Audyssey and Onkyo to investigate the problem and neither of them could reproduce it.  The problem also seems to be easily worked around simply by raising the crossovers anyway.

 

I am not saying that a problem does not exist - just that the jury is still out and, based on the number of reports, if there is a problem it is rare. I don't really buy the idea that the problem may be common but the reports rare because people cannot be bothered to investigate or cannot understand the issues. That may be true of the general public but it is not true of AVS members, where any known issues in equipment are mercilessly laid bare.

 

Even if the problem does exist in all 818 units, in the case of the OP above, the problem can easily be removed entirely from the equation simply by choosing the Denon unit. The Denon appears to have the edge on the 818 in any case in this instance. The main thing is that there are now two reasonably affordable routes to XT32 which is a great step forward for anyone on a tight budget or, as in your case, anyone who lives in a country where AV equipment is far more expensive than it is in the US.  I realise that the option of a Denon doesn’t help in your case and I also accept that you genuinely feel that you have this problem. I hope that you can find an acceptable way to make the 818 perform for you as you hoped it would when you bought it.

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