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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2072

post #62131 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

@caloyzki: Here's a good one I have on my Samsung Galaxy: Sound Meter

It's calibratable and once it's done with the AVR's internal test tones at 75 dB, the sub of course reads a 65(ish) dB. I think it's pretty much enough for relative measurement of multiple subs.

Which one do you use?

i have these, audio tool, noise meter, sound meter (lite).but i dont know how to calibrate this spl apps. and yes i noticed that after running aud. how come i test the sub trim it only reads 60+ db only? i thought it should be 75db?
post #62132 of 70890
It's because of what was discussed above -- the microphone in your cell phone is not optimized to hear such low frequencies. Don't trust it for absolute measurement, only for relative balance with the other subwoofer.
post #62133 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

i have these, audio tool, noise meter, sound meter (lite).but i dont know how to calibrate this spl apps. and yes i noticed that after running aud. how come i test the sub trim it only reads 60+ db only? i thought it should be 75db?

Calibration is easy. Set AVR to output internal test tones. Notice that the AVR will default to 0 dB Master Volume. Place your smart phone at or near to MLP. Adjust +/- on smart phone app till you read 75 dB. Then you can move to relative sub SPL measurements and adjust the gain knobs on the subs back sides accordingly. Done. smile.gif

Well, on a second note all this jazz about calibration of an Android app is really not so important as long as you use the app for relative sub SPL measurements. That's all. Better than doing it by ear. smile.gif LOL
post #62134 of 70890
I just bought a basic spl meter at RadioShack for 50 bucks
post #62135 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

is my mic bad? i just re run my audyssey last night, only denon 1612. with my dual subs, not identical sub. i run first sub with the trim -0.5 and run the other sub to match the first and the trim -0.5. then run the full calibration with 2 feet apart on each position, how come the final result fo my sub -4.0. i am expexcting below -4.0 like closer to 0.00 result. is that a decent trim result for my subwoofer?

Do you like the sound of both of your non identical subs? You could always try just the better one alone and see how you like it. Just a thought.
post #62136 of 70890
Esp
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Do you like the sound of both of your non identical subs? You could always try just the better one alone and see how you like it. Just a thought.

Especially because audyssey will only eq to the ability of the lesser sub
post #62137 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Esp
Especially because audyssey will only eq to the ability of the lesser sub

What do you mean by ability, please?
post #62138 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Do you like the sound of both of your non identical subs? You could always try just the better one alone and see how you like it. Just a thought.

are you sure about this? i thought 2 subs, identical or not are better than 1 sub? and yes i like sounds from both of them.
post #62139 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

are you sure about this? i thought 2 subs, identical or not are better than 1 sub? and yes i like sounds from both of them.

I always thought 2 identical subs were better than one because you can get more equal room response and higher output. Otherwise why would anyone get more than one if it made no difference?
post #62140 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

What do you mean by ability, please?

I have one of these. Scroll down to see the graphs.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html

If I were to add a 200 dollar sub that rolls off steeply at 38hz and add it then audyssey would recognize the lesser ability of the cheaper sub and try to tame down the ability of the more capable one to match the eq'd ability of the lesser capable.

Surely I don't claim to know how this all works. I just read it previously. Someone who knows definitively please chime in
post #62141 of 70890
^and I'm sure I got some info mixed up. Please don't crucify me for such intolerance.
post #62142 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I always thought 2 identical subs were better than one because you can get more equal room response and higher output. Otherwise why would anyone get more than one if it made no difference?

Well, actually your thinking is basically right, but there are further considerations to be taken into account with multiple subs (read: more than one). In a nutshell a few aspects:

1. Even though subs are identical (same brand/same model #), they need careful in-room placement, unless otherwise they will act as two non-identical subs, e.g. in an extreme case, place one in a corner and a second one in the middle of the room and problems for EQ'ing them will exponentionally pop-up.

2. You don't put multiple subs in a room for higher output. Once Audyssey sets them up their joint output SPL will be set to the exact same SPL output as would be set for a single sub configuration. Or in other words, the SPL of each individual sub will be trimmed down to achive the joint reference level output.

Let's see others chime in for a more comprehensive discussion of single or multiple sub placement.

Guys? smile.gif
post #62143 of 70890
Hey guys, Before I do an Audyssey calibration I always make sure the mic is at ear level (above the seat back) and equal distance from the mains at the LP, but Audyssey 9 out of 10 times set the distance incorrectly for the mains and correctly for all the other channels. The physical distance of the mains to the LP is 6.8ft. Audyssey sets the left main to 6.6ft and the right to 7.0ft. Please note I make sure the mic is perfectly centered. Anyway, when watching a movie I don't find it off, but when listening to two channel music the vocals are not centered.....So what I do is I bump the left one up to 6.8ft and the right one down to 6.8ft and the sound is very centered and the way it should be for music. I have read in the Audyssey FAQ's that changing the distance is not recommended and could throw off the calibration.....So If changing it sounds right to me should I leave it? Or stay with what Audyssey sets it at? Any Idea on why it's setting the mains differently? Thanks Luke
post #62144 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Well, actually your thinking is basically right, but there are further considerations to be taken into account with multiple subs (read: more than one). In a nutshell a few aspects:

1. Even though subs are identical (same brand/same model #), they need careful in-room placement, unless otherwise they will act as two non-identical subs, e.g. in an extreme case, place one in a corner and a second one in the middle of the room and problems for EQ'ing them will exponentionally pop-up.

2. You don't put multiple subs in a room for higher output. Once Audyssey sets them up their joint output SPL will be set to the exact same SPL output as would be set for a single sub configuration. Or in other words, the SPL of each individual sub will be trimmed down to achive the joint reference level output.

Let's see others chime in for a more comprehensive discussion of single or multiple sub placement.

Guys? smile.gif

Also what about the ability of multiple subs together playing lower frequencies. Eg. Over on the master bass list movie forum there are some serious woofage setups. Someone will say that movie didn't have much bass. Then another will say ah yea it did it was just too low for your woofage setup
post #62145 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by luketo View Post

Hey guys, Before I do an Audyssey calibration I always make sure the mic is at ear level (above the seat back) and equal distance from the mains at the LP, but Audyssey 9 out of 10 times set the distance incorrectly for the mains and correctly for all the other channels. The physical distance of the mains to the LP is 6.8ft. Audyssey sets the left main to 6.6ft and the right to 7.0ft. Please note I make sure the mic is perfectly centered. Anyway, when watching a movie I don't find it off, but when listening to two channel music the vocals are not centered.....So what I do is I bump the left one up to 6.8ft and the right one down to 6.8ft and the sound is very centered and the way it should be for music. I have read in the Audyssey FAQ's that changing the distance is not recommended and could throw off the calibration.....So If changing it sounds right to me should I leave it? Or stay with what Audyssey sets it at? Any Idea on why it's setting the mains differently? Thanks Luke

Hi Luke, before going into details why Audyssey sets you distance for Mains differenly, would you care/mind to send a photo of your setup? I have a suspicion here! smile.gif
post #62146 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Also what about the ability of multiple subs together playing lower frequencies. Eg. Over on the master bass list movie forum there are some serious woofage setups. Someone will say that movie didn't have much bass. Then another will say ah yea it did it was just too low for your woofage setup

Umm, well, ...over at the master bass forum there are some serious woofage setups. Fully agree! And a lot of debate going on! Agree? Nothin' but forum life! Agree again?smile.gifcool.giftongue.gif
post #62147 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi Luke, before going into details why Audyssey sets you distance for Mains differenly, would you care/mind to send a photo of your setup? I have a suspicion here! smile.gif

Feri, I sure can when I get home....but in the mean time what is your suspicion? Luke
post #62148 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by luketo View Post

Feri, I sure can when I get home....but in the mean time what is your suspicion? Luke

Need photo to resolve suspicion, but room layout particulars come to mind. Let's see (literally speaking!) smile.gif
post #62149 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Umm, well, ...over at the master bass forum there are some serious woofage setups. Fully agree! And a lot of debate going on! Agree? Nothin' but forum life! Agree again?smile.gifcool.giftongue.gif

Surely there are areas to disagree or prefer a different setup, tune, whatever. And then there are areas that are scientifically factual.
post #62150 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by luketo View Post

Hey guys, Before I do an Audyssey calibration I always make sure the mic is at ear level (above the seat back) and equal distance from the mains at the LP, but Audyssey 9 out of 10 times set the distance incorrectly for the mains and correctly for all the other channels. The physical distance of the mains to the LP is 6.8ft. Audyssey sets the left main to 6.6ft and the right to 7.0ft. Please note I make sure the mic is perfectly centered. Anyway, when watching a movie I don't find it off, but when listening to two channel music the vocals are not centered.....So what I do is I bump the left one up to 6.8ft and the right one down to 6.8ft and the sound is very centered and the way it should be for music. I have read in the Audyssey FAQ's that changing the distance is not recommended and could throw off the calibration.....So If changing it sounds right to me should I leave it? Or stay with what Audyssey sets it at? Any Idea on why it's setting the mains differently? Thanks Luke

 

When you say the mic is 'centred' I assume you have measured the distance from the tip of the mic to the centre of one of the drivers in each speaker?  The discrepancy is only 4 inches, so if one sub was 2 inches forward and the other 2 inches back, that could explain it, even though the mic is actually at the mid point laterally of the two subs.

 

The distances are really delays - Audyssey calculates the distance by measuring the time it takes for the impulse to travel from the speaker to the mic. The speed of sound is approximately 1130 feet per second so the time taken for the sound to travel to the mic for the left speaker is 5.8 milliseconds and the time for the right speaker is 6.2 milliseconds. The difference is just 0.4 of a millisecond. I am not sure that this very small difference is going to result in an audible skewing of the imaging towards one speaker. If we 'reverse engineer' the Haas effect, it would tell us that a sound can be as much as 10dB louder and still not be perceived as a distinct auditory 'event' even if it is delayed by several milliseconds. That would suggest that a difference in time of arrival of the signal of just 0.4 of one millisecond would be insignificant in imaging terms. I know that the Hass effect is not concerned with the issue you describe but the general findings seem to be relevant. In any event, when you are using the system in 5.1 mode, the centring of the image is all but assured because you are, of course, using a centre channel physical speaker. That would explain why you don't perceive this effect on movies.

 

If I am right (and I accept I may not be) changing the distances by such tiny amounts will not have any appreciable impact on the stereo imaging, so if you find you prefer the sound with both speakers set at 6.8ft, then by all means do it!

 

I would be wary of evaluating this using random music excerpts as you have no way to be 100% sure that the vocal is centred in the source. It would be better, IMO, to use a test disc with a specific test designed to enable the listener to precisely locate the central image.

post #62151 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

When you say the mic is 'centred' I assume you have measured the distance from the tip of the mic to the centre of one of the drivers in each speaker?  The discrepancy is only 4 inches, so if one sub was 2 inches forward and the other 2 inches back, that could explain it, even though the mic is actually at the mid point laterally of the two subs.

The distances are really delays - Audyssey calculates the distance by measuring the time it takes for the impulse to travel from the speaker to the mic. The speed of sound is approximately 1130 feet per second so the time taken for the sound to travel to the mic for the left speaker is 5.8 milliseconds and the time for the right speaker is 6.2 milliseconds. The difference is just 0.4 of a millisecond. I am not sure that this very small difference is going to result in an audible skewing of the imaging towards one speaker. If we 'reverse engineer' the Haas effect, it would tell us that a sound can be as much as 10dB louder and still not be perceived as a distinct auditory 'event' even if it is delayed by several milliseconds. That would suggest that a difference in time of arrival of the signal of just 0.4 of one millisecond would be insignificant in imaging terms. I know that the Hass effect is not concerned with the issue you describe but the general findings seem to be relevant. In any event, when you are using the system in 5.1 mode, the centring of the image is all but assured because you are, of course, using a centre channel physical speaker. That would explain why you don't perceive this effect on movies.

If I am right (and I accept I may not be) changing the distances by such tiny amounts will not have any appreciable impact on the stereo imaging, so if you find you prefer the sound with both speakers set at 6.8ft, then by all means do it!

I would be wary of evaluating this using random music excerpts as you have no way to be 100% sure that the vocal is centred in the source. It would be better, IMO, to use a test disc with a specific test designed to enable the listener to precisely locate the central image.

Keith, honestly speaking, instead of such lenghty trial and error based troubleshooting spree with Hass effect and description of speed of sound and converting it to milliseconds and all the reverse engineering stuff, I really would wait for Luke to come back with a photo or two of his room setup! No need to over exaggurate matters! Agree? smile.gif
post #62152 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

When you say the mic is 'centred' I assume you have measured the distance from the tip of the mic to the centre of one of the drivers in each speaker?  The discrepancy is only 4 inches, so if one sub was 2 inches forward and the other 2 inches back, that could explain it, even though the mic is actually at the mid point laterally of the two subs.

The distances are really delays - Audyssey calculates the distance by measuring the time it takes for the impulse to travel from the speaker to the mic. The speed of sound is approximately 1130 feet per second so the time taken for the sound to travel to the mic for the left speaker is 5.8 milliseconds and the time for the right speaker is 6.2 milliseconds. The difference is just 0.4 of a millisecond. I am not sure that this very small difference is going to result in an audible skewing of the imaging towards one speaker. If we 'reverse engineer' the Haas effect, it would tell us that a sound can be as much as 10dB louder and still not be perceived as a distinct auditory 'event' even if it is delayed by several milliseconds. That would suggest that a difference in time of arrival of the signal of just 0.4 of one millisecond would be insignificant in imaging terms. I know that the Hass effect is not concerned with the issue you describe but the general findings seem to be relevant. In any event, when you are using the system in 5.1 mode, the centring of the image is all but assured because you are, of course, using a centre channel physical speaker. That would explain why you don't perceive this effect on movies.

If I am right (and I accept I may not be) changing the distances by such tiny amounts will not have any appreciable impact on the stereo imaging, so if you find you prefer the sound with both speakers set at 6.8ft, then by all means do it!

I would be wary of evaluating this using random music excerpts as you have no way to be 100% sure that the vocal is centred in the source. It would be better, IMO, to use a test disc with a specific test designed to enable the listener to precisely locate the central image.

Thanks Kbarnes for the reply. Me changing it that little for some reason has a big impact. I have been using all the test cd's I get from Stereophile over the years on my Oppo 105 and there are tracks on there that states the vocals should be centered for that track and this is how I confirmed the difference in the distance settings....but like I mentioned earlier, I can't find it off watching movies on either settings so I guess I should leave it at the 6.8ft........but I really would like to know why it's doing it, so I can try to correct it. I love home theater and I love the science of too. Luke
post #62153 of 70890
So I have been asking questions about my sub on its forum. I just discovered (had it about 4 months) that it is recommended to set it to 1 port open, EQ setting 1, and Q control to .7 (maximum) run Audyssey then change to your liking. I prefer 2 ports open, EQ 2, and have recently tried Q control .5. (It ranges.3-.7). I'm just trying to understand this approach. It seems like it is a way to override audyssey.

Here is a link to the sub, if you scroll down it shows the different graphs for different settings.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html

Just hoping someone can help me understand this approach.

Also a link to the thread of the questions I was asking and Dr. Hsu was providing.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1288202/the-official-hsu-vtf-15h-thread/3900#post_23327785
post #62154 of 70890
^obviously many of you are not familiar with this sub and its different settings but surely you can understand running audyssey then changing the tune and the effects of that
post #62155 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I always thought 2 identical subs were better than one because you can get more equal room response and higher output. Otherwise why would anyone get more than one if it made no difference?
I guess I'm good with my two subs right? tongue.gif
post #62156 of 70890
Remember that Audyssey tries to calibrate your sub to have a flat response. So if you select a mode that is non-flat because you prefer the sound, then calibrate with Audyssey, the MultEQ correction will expend resources trying to re-flatten the response. So the theory in general is that when you have a sub with different "shaping" options for the bass output, you should always calibrate in the flattest possible mode, and then make any changes for preference AFTER calibration.
post #62157 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by luketo View Post

Hey guys, Before I do an Audyssey calibration I always make sure the mic is at ear level (above the seat back) and equal distance from the mains at the LP, but Audyssey 9 out of 10 times set the distance incorrectly for the mains and correctly for all the other channels. The physical distance of the mains to the LP is 6.8ft. Audyssey sets the left main to 6.6ft and the right to 7.0ft. Please note I make sure the mic is perfectly centered. Anyway, when watching a movie I don't find it off, but when listening to two channel music the vocals are not centered.....So what I do is I bump the left one up to 6.8ft and the right one down to 6.8ft and the sound is very centered and the way it should be for music. I have read in the Audyssey FAQ's that changing the distance is not recommended and could throw off the calibration.....So If changing it sounds right to me should I leave it? Or stay with what Audyssey sets it at? Any Idea on why it's setting the mains differently? Thanks Luke

Well, I never trust physical distance measurements. If you want to permanently resolve this issue, follow this procedure:

1. Place the mic at the proper position in the MLP.
2. Run a single point calibration, run the calculation, and observe the distances that Audyssey calculates.
3. If the left and right distances are not identical, adjust the position of the speakers.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until Audyssey calculates the distances as the same.
5. Run the full 8-position calibration.
6. Enjoy the centered sound.

You can also adjust the MLP seating position if you don't want (or can't) adjust the position of the left and right speakers.

See, Feri, a solution that doesn't require a picture of the OP's room and system. Pretty creative, huh?
post #62158 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Remember that Audyssey tries to calibrate your sub to have a flat response. So if you select a mode that is non-flat because you prefer the sound, then calibrate with Audyssey, the MultEQ correction will expend resources trying to re-flatten the response. So the theory in general is that when you have a sub with different "shaping" options for the bass output, you should always calibrate in the flattest possible mode, and then make any changes for preference AFTER calibration.

I think it just clicked. So basically if I change to 2 ports open and eq 2 rather than 1 port open and eq 1(the recommended audyseey calibration setting) then I am essentially changing on top of the audyssey eq magic on the sub. Kinda like tweaking my audyssey eq'd sub.

Right?
post #62159 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Remember that Audyssey tries to calibrate your sub to have a flat response. So if you select a mode that is non-flat because you prefer the sound, then calibrate with Audyssey, the MultEQ correction will expend resources trying to re-flatten the response. So the theory in general is that when you have a sub with different "shaping" options for the bass output, you should always calibrate in the flattest possible mode, and then make any changes for preference AFTER calibration.
Yes sir that's what I did on my klipsch. Phase 0, LFE MODE LOWPASS OFF, EQ TO FLAT. AND didn't change anything after the aud. dayton PHASE OFF, CROSSOVER FREQUENCY ALL THE WAY TO 150HZ. then run 1st sub -0.5db then connect the dayton -0.5db. Then run the full aud. -0.4db final sub trim.
post #62160 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Well, I never trust physical distance measurements. If you want to permanently resolve this issue, follow this procedure:

1. Place the mic at the proper position in the MLP.
2. Run a single point calibration, run the calculation, and observe the distances that Audyssey calculates.
3. If the left and right distances are not identical, adjust the position of the speakers.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until Audyssey calculates the distances as the same.
5. Run the full 8-position calibration.
6. Enjoy the centered sound.

You can also adjust the MLP seating position if you don't want (or can't) adjust the position of the left and right speakers.

See, Feri, a solution that doesn't require a picture of the OP's room and system. Pretty creative, huh?

Hi Jerry, if you don't mind I tend to disagree with point no. 3. Adjusting the position of the Mains may sometimes not be an option in a given room configutation due to whatsover reason only known to the OP, thus Audyssey is still there to compensate for distance differences by way of setting trims accordingly, while ensuring same level of SPL at the MLP regardless of distance differences. I'd wait for those photos to make any further conclusive suggestions. Agree? smile.gif
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