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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2074

post #62191 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Luke, I honestly wouldn’t worry about it. It doesn’t affect movies because you have the centre speaker physically locking the sound to the centre and if changing the distances by that small an amount gives you the result you are seeking, then go for it. IMO you will not be adversely affecting anything of significance. It's when people want to make big adjustments, say more than 1 ft, that the real problems arise.  Chances arem if you ran Audyssey again you might get slightly different results yet again. 

On a slightly different note, I once spent some considerable time trying to help a friend get a precise central image from his stereo speakers. We went through a lot of troubleshooting procedures and personally I just couldn't hear the off-centred vocal he was hearing, but we persevered and tried everything we could including moving the speakers, measuring the output voltages, rearranging some furniture and so on and on. All to no avail. After many hours of this my friend suddenly said "You don't think it has anything to do with my being partially deaf in my left ear do you?". My reply is not publishable on a forum smile.gif

LMAO.....he was deaf in one ear? He should start with that next time. I agree trying to get a good stereo image is time consuming...but it's worth it when you get it to your liking. I was able to do some more careful listening lastnight and I believe I'm happy and will stay with the adjustments I made. Thanks for all the info. Luke
post #62192 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Luke - it is impossible for dialogue to be un-centred when you are using the system in HT mode because the physical location of the centre channel assures that dialogue comes from the centre of the soundstage. This would also be the case if you used PLII for music, but as a stereo fan myself I can see why you may not care to do that. 

Stereo all the way!!!
post #62193 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Luke,

Assuming there is no defect in the electronics (which probably shouldn't actually be ruled out), an asymmetry in the measured audio suggests that there's an asymmetry in your room's physical configuration -- in the speakers, furnishings or walls.

Your photo seems to show a subwoofer in the right corner behind your main speakers. There seems to be something dark and taller in the left corner, but I can't make it out. Is that another sub, a shadow or something else?

Where's the entry-way located?
Was its door open or closed when you did the calibration?
How does its surface or construction differ from the walls?

Does the room have windows?
Where are they located?

What about the composition of the walls themselves: might one be a dense external wall and the other made of internal wood-frame construction?

Is the ceiling sloped?

Your photo doesn't show them , but presumably you have identical audio treatments on the side walls in addition to those behind the speakers.

Edited to add:
And where were you when the calibration was running?

Selden,

What you see in the left corner is a piece of foam. I put there because my daughter like to come bursting in room sometime because she discovered something new. Subwoofer is not directly behind the main right but off to the side a bit. Luke
post #62194 of 70896
Can we start a short discussion about running subwoofers hot while using Dynamic EQ ?

I've got dual subs almost ready to set up in the room. With dynamic EQ the subs would already be running hot at lower listening levels compared to without Dynamic EQ on.

If I bump the subs up +3db, and then run Dynamic EQ, is my bass going to be way way bloated until I get up to reference volume ?

Subs are DIY ported 18's tuned for 15hz. 700 watts per driver sustained.
post #62195 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

Can we start a short discussion about running subwoofers hot while using Dynamic EQ ?

I've got dual subs almost ready to set up in the room. With dynamic EQ the subs would already be running hot at lower listening levels compared to without Dynamic EQ on.

If I bump the subs up +3db, and then run Dynamic EQ, is my bass going to be way way bloated until I get up to reference volume ?

Subs are DIY ported 18's tuned for 15hz. 700 watts per driver sustained.

I think the only way you will get an answer to your question is by trying it yourself. Recall that you have four settings for the DEQ Reference Level Offset to tailor the amount of boost you are getting. I suspect you will find a setting to your liking. Please share with us your experiences!
post #62196 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

Can we start a short discussion about running subwoofers hot while using Dynamic EQ ?

I've got dual subs almost ready to set up in the room. With dynamic EQ the subs would already be running hot at lower listening levels compared to without Dynamic EQ on.

If I bump the subs up +3db, and then run Dynamic EQ, is my bass going to be way way bloated until I get up to reference volume ?

Subs are DIY ported 18's tuned for 15hz. 700 watts per driver sustained.

 

The effect of DEQ gradually 'tapers off' as you approach reference level. It isn't a 'switch' that cuts in/out at reference level.

 

The objective of DEQ is to make the subs perceptually flat (to account for the way the human ear/brain perceives bass as SPLs drop) so it isn't as simple as DEQ 'running the subs hot'.

 

There are also the RLO (reference level offset) settings, as Jerry says, which you can use to 'tame' the amount of bass boost that is applied.  

 

Finally, why do you think you will want to run the subs +3dB over reference?  You seem to have decided this before the system is even up and running.

 

I would suggest you set it up, run Audyssey according to the requirements of the Setup Guide or 101 and then listen for a week or so before deciding to adjust (or not) the bass.  These FAQ answers may also help:

 

g)2.   What is Dynamic EQ?


g)3.   What is Reference Level Offset in Dynamic EQ?

post #62197 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by luketo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Luke,

Assuming there is no defect in the electronics (which probably shouldn't actually be ruled out), an asymmetry in the measured audio suggests that there's an asymmetry in your room's physical configuration -- in the speakers, furnishings or walls.

Your photo seems to show a subwoofer in the right corner behind your main speakers. There seems to be something dark and taller in the left corner, but I can't make it out. Is that another sub, a shadow or something else?

Where's the entry-way located?
Was its door open or closed when you did the calibration?
How does its surface or construction differ from the walls?

Does the room have windows?
Where are they located?

What about the composition of the walls themselves: might one be a dense external wall and the other made of internal wood-frame construction?

Is the ceiling sloped?

Your photo doesn't show them , but presumably you have identical audio treatments on the side walls in addition to those behind the speakers.

Edited to add:
And where were you when the calibration was running?

Selden,

What you see in the left corner is a piece of foam. I put there because my daughter like to come bursting in room sometime because she discovered something new. Subwoofer is not directly behind the main right but off to the side a bit. Luke

 

What about the other points Selden raises? They are all very valid in the context of your original question.

post #62198 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by luketo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Luke,

Assuming there is no defect in the electronics (which probably shouldn't actually be ruled out), an asymmetry in the measured audio suggests that there's an asymmetry in your room's physical configuration -- in the speakers, furnishings or walls.

Your photo seems to show a subwoofer in the right corner behind your main speakers. There seems to be something dark and taller in the left corner, but I can't make it out. Is that another sub, a shadow or something else?

Where's the entry-way located?
Was its door open or closed when you did the calibration?
How does its surface or construction differ from the walls?

Does the room have windows?
Where are they located?

What about the composition of the walls themselves: might one be a dense external wall and the other made of internal wood-frame construction?

Is the ceiling sloped?

Your photo doesn't show them , but presumably you have identical audio treatments on the side walls in addition to those behind the speakers.

Edited to add:
And where were you when the calibration was running?

Selden,

What you see in the left corner is a piece of foam. I put there because my daughter like to come bursting in room sometime because she discovered something new. Subwoofer is not directly behind the main right but off to the side a bit. Luke

Your description of the foam suggests that the doorway is at the front of the left sidewall, near the left front speaker. That foam and/or having the doorway open during the calibration are likely causes of the difference in the speaker's calibration.
post #62199 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by luketo View Post

Moving the MLP is an option but moving the speakers is not. I have been playing with my speaker positioning in this room for about 6 months now and they sound best where they are. I have confirmed the speakers physical measurements again and they are exactly the same distance from the rear wall and the side wall. Not even off by 1/16th of an inch.

I listen to alot of music also...so if I don't make the slight adjustment it does not sound like it should. You think the slight adjustment will throw off the calibration Jerry? You are more experience at this then I am. That's for sure!

Having the speakers the same distance from adjacent walls is typically not a good practice. Most speaker companies recommend against it.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/speakerplacement.html

http://www.polkaudio.com/polk-university/articles/optimizing-the-sound-of-your-room

http://www.rivesaudio.com/files/spkr_plcmt.pdf

I stumbled on the 'golden ratio' (1 X 1.6) a while back and have set my front speakers using it and have been very happy with the results.

http://stereos.about.com/od/introductiontostereos/ht/sprkplace.htm

A more in depth article but not as practical, for home theater setups, from George Cardas;

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_rectangular_room.php
post #62200 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Do you guys bump your subs? If so how much?

Movies I prefer flat to only a few dB hot unless I am just trying to show off. For music I can sometimes approach 20dB hot just for fun....And it usually sounds pretty good too depending on what type of music I am listening to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I just bought a basic spl meter at RadioShack for 50 bucks

Best investment you can make for your theater, short of gettin a full measurement gear setup like an omnimic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I always thought 2 identical subs were better than one because you can get more equal room response and higher output. Otherwise why would anyone get more than one if it made no difference?

Those two things are important, as well as extension assuming the subs are sealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luketo View Post

Hey guys, Before I do an Audyssey calibration I always make sure the mic is at ear level (above the seat back) and equal distance from the mains at the LP, but Audyssey 9 out of 10 times set the distance incorrectly for the mains and correctly for all the other channels. The physical distance of the mains to the LP is 6.8ft. Audyssey sets the left main to 6.6ft and the right to 7.0ft. Please note I make sure the mic is perfectly centered. Anyway, when watching a movie I don't find it off, but when listening to two channel music the vocals are not centered.....So what I do is I bump the left one up to 6.8ft and the right one down to 6.8ft and the sound is very centered and the way it should be for music. I have read in the Audyssey FAQ's that changing the distance is not recommended and could throw off the calibration.....So If changing it sounds right to me should I leave it? Or stay with what Audyssey sets it at? Any Idea on why it's setting the mains differently? Thanks Luke

My stereo image always seems left after audyssey runs as well, and my speakers are equidistant and all that jazz just like yours. I say adjust it to what makes you happy and not have your head cocked to one side the whole time you are listening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Also what about the ability of multiple subs together playing lower frequencies. Eg. Over on the master bass list movie forum there are some serious woofage setups. Someone will say that movie didn't have much bass. Then another will say ah yea it did it was just too low for your woofage setup

Once again, they need to be sealed, so you can couple the response to gain more extension and get hopefully flat to 10hz or possibly even lower, but it really starts to get silly past 10hz and almost inaudible by 7hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luketo View Post

Thanks Kbarnes for the reply. Me changing it that little for some reason has a big impact. I have been using all the test cd's I get from Stereophile over the years on my Oppo 105 and there are tracks on there that states the vocals should be centered for that track and this is how I confirmed the difference in the distance settings....but like I mentioned earlier, I can't find it off watching movies on either settings so I guess I should leave it at the 6.8ft........but I really would like to know why it's doing it, so I can try to correct it. I love home theater and I love the science of too. Luke

I can hear even the slightest difference in adjusting the distance image. Even one step sometimes makes a difference to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post

Hi, beastaudio

I have 2 identical subs (mordaunt short's carnival) and equal distance from MLP. I set the subs at 75db individually during Audyssey set up and when I run both together, Audyssey lowered the overall level by -4.5 instead of the -3 that you mentioned. Does it mean that Audyssey didn't get it right? Should I up it from -4.5 to -3 ?

Thanks.

Sorry I didnt get to it sooner, but others have answered as I would have, but up it to -3dB if you think it sounds better!!A lot of people around here chase after dead -flat response, and to me, I had it, and just didnt like it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

I think the general consensus around here is that there's no particular reason to trust our Radio Shack meters more than we trust Audyssey's. So if it were me, I'd go back to what Audyssey set.

Not my consensus for sure. Honestly for the last two or three pages of discussion, I have all the same solution. Jpowell and Luketo, you both seem very dedicated to optimizing your systems, so go out and get a measurement system like the Dayton Omnimic v2. It is literally as simple as setting up the mic at your listening positions, and popping the cd/dvd in your player and start running sine sweeps. The newer mics are calibrated to 5hz as well. You'll actually be able to see what each of your speakers is doing at the listening position, or what adding additional subs does to your overall response, or changing the toe-in of your speakers or ANYTHING else you might want to experiment with doing. It is $300 well spent, and the capabilities are easy to master.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

Can we start a short discussion about running subwoofers hot while using Dynamic EQ ?

I've got dual subs almost ready to set up in the room. With dynamic EQ the subs would already be running hot at lower listening levels compared to without Dynamic EQ on.

If I bump the subs up +3db, and then run Dynamic EQ, is my bass going to be way way bloated until I get up to reference volume ?

Subs are DIY ported 18's tuned for 15hz. 700 watts per driver sustained.

Running hot AND with Dyn EQ yields too much boost to the sub level if you are anywhere past -25 on the master volume in my experience.
post #62201 of 70896
Beast audio "Not my consensus for sure. Honestly for the last two or three pages of discussion, I have all the same solution. Jpowell and Luketo, you both seem very dedicated to optimizing your systems, so go out and get a measurement system like the Dayton Omnimic v2. It is literally as simple as setting up the mic at your listening positions, and popping the cd/dvd in your player and start running sine sweeps. The newer mics are calibrated to 5hz as well. You'll actually be able to see what each of your speakers is doing at the listening position, or what adding additional subs does to your overall response, or changing the toe-in of your speakers or ANYTHING else you might want to experiment with doing. It is $300 well spent, and the capabilities are easy to master."

I plan to get into that but I will be moving soon so I will wait. I have an hsu VTF 15h so it can go sealed, 1 port open, 2 ports open. Eq 1 or 2 and also has adjustable Q control. I plan to go dual in January. Dr. Hsu recommends to run Ausyssey 1 port open, eq 1 and Q control at max (.7). Then change the sound to your liking. Like tweaking the tune on top of Audysseys work.
post #62202 of 70896
Sry for the irregular quote technique. Haven't figured out how to manually quote on my iphone
post #62203 of 70896
"Once again, they need to be sealed, so you can couple the response to gain more extension and get hopefully flat to 10hz or possibly even lower, but it really starts to get silly past 10hz and almost inaudible by 7hz."

Right now I'm running 2 ports open, eq 2 and Q control at about 4.3. Eq2 isn't the flattest but right now I like the sound. Bigger kick drum sound.
post #62204 of 70896
post #62205 of 70896
I love the kickdrum sound, but as far as running ports open, adding additional PORTED subs is just going to add headroom and/or capability. You will gain a little extra extension below the port tune but it will still drop at 24dB/octave from the tune on down. In a sealed setup, the rolloff is only 12dB per octave and there is no port tune, so the rolloff in general is more gradual, so adding subs and capability will allow you to boost the low end up to where you can hopefully get flat response, and get it much lower than a ported design could do. It takes a lot of sealed subs though to really dig deep but the time and effort is worth it if you are willing to go the distance.
post #62206 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

Having the speakers the same distance from adjacent walls is typically not a good practice. Most speaker companies recommend against it.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/speakerplacement.html

http://www.polkaudio.com/polk-university/articles/optimizing-the-sound-of-your-room

http://www.rivesaudio.com/files/spkr_plcmt.pdf

I stumbled on the 'golden ratio' (1 X 1.6) a while back and have set my front speakers using it and have been very happy with the results.

http://stereos.about.com/od/introductiontostereos/ht/sprkplace.htm

A more in depth article but not as practical, for home theater setups, from George Cardas;

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_rectangular_room.php

Wow, Patrick, that is contrary to conventional wisdom. I didn't read all the references you posted, but the first one (Galen Carol) states: "It is most important to insure that the distance to the back and side walls are unequal. Do not place the speaker, say, 20" from both back and side walls. That said, be sure both speakers are set the same; symmetry is very important. By that we mean if the left speaker is 20" from the back-wall and 30" from the side-wall, try to place the right speaker in the same way. This may not be possible in all situations, but do your best to give each speaker a similar acoustic environment."

This clearly contradicts your statement. I agree with Galen--symmetry is very important, and I'll wager that many others on this thread will agree.

Edit: OK, I glanced at several other of the links, and they all say the same thing--the speakers should be placed equidistant from the side walls. Is it possible that I am misinterpreting your original statement?
post #62207 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

My old grandaddy used to say that when one gets something for nothing, they invariably get what they paid for wink.gif  Anyone even a little bit serious about this hobby should invest a few dollars, IMO, in a proper SPL meter. It will last forever and be useful in numerous ways.

I can never understand the reluctance to spend relatively tiny sums of money in order to get the best out of an expenditure of relatively huge sums of money. It's the same with mic stands - people go to the most ludicrous lengths to kludge up some form of Heath-Robinson/Rube Goldberg contraption rather than spend just $20 on a proper stand. Never ceases to amaze me.

Keith,

With all due respect and a million more to your granddaddy, nonetheless I’d like to raise an issue in general that may catch the attention of both long time members as well as new posters here when it comes to discussing issues some may have during auto-setup and chime in here for advice on what to do.

Without a lengthy speech, I’d like to point out that most of Audyssey users buy their gear with the expectation that once the procedures in the User’s Manual are followed they will get a room EQ system that works as advertised. We all know by now that there are a lot of further considerations to be taken into account, FAQ’s, speaker setup “best practices”, crossovers, WAF, etc., just to name a few.

On the other hand, I do believe majority of the questions can be answered by friendly and knowledgeable members here to the satisfaction of the inquirers within a short period.

What my point is that telling people to invest into “gizmos and gadgets” (regardless of its price) that will last forever may make some members frustrated, surely more than they were before posting here. The “gizmos and gadgets” may be worth a million for you, but will be absolutely alien to others. Most probably they won’t understand why it is recommended when they bought a system that is supposed to do everything automatically.

Should measurements be the only solution for an inquirer it might be better to direct them to a measurement thread provided they are interested and ready for the steep learning curve of such it order to gather worthy details of their room-speaker-Audyssey interaction. Over at those threads you will need to quote granddaddy no more! smile.gif
Edited by mogorf - 5/20/13 at 2:24pm
post #62208 of 70896
Jerry,

When I read this quote from Luke;

"I have confirmed the speakers physical measurements again and they are exactly the same distance from the rear wall and the side wall. Not even off by 1/16th of an inch."

I interpreted it to mean that he had them the same distance from both walls. As in, 2 feet from the front and 2 feet from the side wall. If that is true then the links might be of some interest. I couldn't agree more that symmetry is very important. In my case, I have them 41.6 inches from the front wall and using the 'golden ratio' of 1.6, 26 inches from the sides, in both front speaker positions. The formula can be used in either configuration.

I know that after I found it, it took a lot of the guesswork out of placement and constant fiddling with my speakers, And they sound really good, too. biggrin.gif
post #62209 of 70896
OK, Patrick, we are good. I simply misinterpreted your previous post.
post #62210 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I love the kickdrum sound, but as far as running ports open, adding additional PORTED subs is just going to add headroom and/or capability. You will gain a little extra extension below the port tune but it will still drop at 24dB/octave from the tune on down. In a sealed setup, the rolloff is only 12dB per octave and there is no port tune, so the rolloff in general is more gradual, so adding subs and capability will allow you to boost the low end up to where you can hopefully get flat response, and get it much lower than a ported design could do. It takes a lot of sealed subs though to really dig deep but the time and effort is worth it if you are willing to go the distance.

Hmmm. Perhaps I can ask/find some measurements of some guys running multiple to see what they got.

So, in theory, running 2 ports open with multiple subs is "kind of" pointless?
post #62211 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Not my consensus for sure. Honestly for the last two or three pages of discussion, I have all the same solution. Jpowell and Luketo, you both seem very dedicated to optimizing your systems, so go out and get a measurement system like the Dayton Omnimic v2. It is literally as simple as setting up the mic at your listening positions, and popping the cd/dvd in your player and start running sine sweeps. The newer mics are calibrated to 5hz as well. You'll actually be able to see what each of your speakers is doing at the listening position, or what adding additional subs does to your overall response, or changing the toe-in of your speakers or ANYTHING else you might want to experiment with doing. It is $300 well spent, and the capabilities are easy to master.
Running hot AND with Dyn EQ yields too much boost to the sub level if you are anywhere past -25 on the master volume in my experience.

Just to be clear, the Omnimic is abour a million miles from my ratshack meter. Starting with it's individually calibrated, continuing to ability to eliminate the A or C curves, etc. I'd agree that accurate measuring systems are, uh, accurate, and we know that the AUdyssey mics are tested to plus or minus 2 dB, which is less than perfect calibration of the mic. So if I spurred you to make your comment, fine. If you thought your coment relevant to mine, nope.
post #62212 of 70896
post #62213 of 70896
Ok I asked this with owners of the Anthem DV2

ARC or AUDYSSEY Multi EQ 32 which is best
post #62214 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Ok I asked this with owners of the Anthem DV2

ARC or AUDYSSEY Multi EQ 32 which is best

Huh? And what did they say?
post #62215 of 70896
Okay, so I finally got an evening to test and rerun audyssey in the hopes that I could eliminate the rattle caused by overboosting. I did everything with a boom mic too.

First thing I did was pull the sub out into the middle of the room. Reran Audyssey and voila, no more subsonic rattle. However, I started to get the rattle at 25hz and just under 30hz.

So then I put the sub back towards its original 'cornerish' location but pulled out a bit more from the wall and then reran Audyssey. The rattle came back at 20hz and then 25hz.

At that point I gave up and returned the sub back to the spot that had the subsonic rattle and I reran audyssey and then placed the highpass 20hz filter on it. I now get a little rattling in the deepest effects around 20hz, but its only once or twice in any effect heavy movie and I don't think I can do better.

So, the only thing I can think of is my sub is sensitive to being overboosted even a little and I either need to get a newer receiver with a better version of Audyssey, or I need another sub to share the load. Willl another sub result in less overall db boosts from audyssey?
Also, is it possible that the mic is not very good at the lower frequencies (<30hz)?

Thanks all.
post #62216 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Huh? And what did they say?

Nothing yet! Which receiver has DSX 2 yet.
post #62217 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Nothing yet! Which receiver has DSX 2 yet.

What is Dsx 2?
post #62218 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post


What is Dsx 2?

 

Search is handy.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/61950#post_23295641

post #62219 of 70896

Yes of course...
post #62220 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

This is from the FAQ answer that I directed you to earlier:

"It is also important to set the levels on both subs so that they are the same, before you do the Audyssey calibration. One way to do this is to run a test tone from your AVR or a calibration disc with one sub switched off. Set the active sub so that it reads about 72dB using a Sound Pressure Level meter located at the Main Listening Position. Then switch that sub off and repeat the procedure for the second sub. It is vital that you do this step or your subs will be unbalanced'. If you aim for 72dB on each sub then you will allow for the greater output from the pair. MultEQ and MultEQ XT will adjust the sub trim to the appropriate level when doing the calibration."

I did this. Follow everything. Because of my mismatched subs. Move the first sub knob til I get 72db then turn off did the same thing to the other sub til get 72db.connect both subs using y adapter Run the avr test tone both subs read 71-72 db. run the first measurement check the trim and how come the sub trim is -11.0db???
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)