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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2080

post #62371 of 70896
Usually 1/4 into the room is sticking them right in a bad spot, as I was told a few time when doing it myself. That didn't deter me from even trying at one point and I got the best response I had out of all positions. So as many computer models as some might throw at you, it all depends on what ends up sounding best to you sir! Good luck and I will check back tomorrow (Eastern US time, haha) Also, might want to create a thread so you/we don't clog up the audyssey thread. PM me a link to it if you do! Ill gladly continue to help.
post #62372 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Murray,

Take a look at the Room Mode Calculator (I converted 4x6x3 meters into feet and inches):




Your room dimensions present a difficult problem to overcome.  Note that the second order standing wave associated with the room width is 87Hz, and the 3rd order standing wave associated with the room length is also 87Hz.  This means that the 87Hz mode will be overwhelmingly present in the room, which could account for the bloated bass you are hearing.  (Also note that 58Hz is a standing wave associated with the length and the height of the room, which is also a serious issue.)

One way to address the 87Hz issue is sub placement.  On the front wall, try placing the subs at the 1/4 and 3/4 points of the room width (i.e. 3.25 feet from the left and right walls).  Same goes for the two rear subs.  Another option would be to place one pair of subs along the opposite side walls, either 3.25 feet from the front or back wall (i.e. the 1/6 or 5/6 points along the room length).  To address the 58Hz mode, place the two subs along opposite side walls at 4.75 feet from the front or back wall (i.e. the 1/4 and 3/4 points).  Ideally, place the two front subs to address the 87Hz mode, and the two side subs to address the 58Hz mode.

If you can't re-locate the subs, my fear is that you will not be able to address either mode by any other method.

Don't listen to the naysayer who feels that a room measurement system is not needed.  I looked at your home theater build thread, and you obviously invested a lot of time and money to build a really outstanding listening room.  Having gone this far, it would be a shame if you didn't develop the skills to assess the audio response in the room. If you don't, you will never be able to finish your room acoustically, which would be a shame.

Omnimic is a simple measurement system, and a good one.  However, you might also want to consider REW.  I know you were somewhat intimidated when you visited the Home Theater Shack web site.  However, we here at AVS have created a thread here, which is intended to make REW simple for first-time users like yourself.  You should also take a quick look at the REW Guide, referenced in a link in my signature, which is a step-by-step guide for beginners.  The cost of hardware is only about $100 to get started, and you can receive guidance from the many thread participants.

Good luck, and I hope you find the solution for your issue!

Austin

I have done what you said (I think)

I placed the L&R front subs 3' 6" out from the front side walls, and placed the other pair 3'6" from the front wall back, you can see the configuration in the images.


After EQ XT32 I noticed a huge difference, way more bass!!! louder!!! It is quite good, the back wall still is heavier than the other rows but it sounds cleaner, the whole room does, but the back wall could be better I'm sure. Ha that's the obsessive part of me;)
The two rear subs are still sitting in the back row at 3'6" from the ear side walls. I'm quite happy that things are sounding better. I would like to stay in this thread if its ok, I want to work more with placement and Audyssey for the time being.

If you want me to try measurements let me know, I will do anything to try to improve things.....

I have re measured everything in the room in feet and inches to help you guys in the USA help me.....
Take a look at those measurements and tell me if I should experiment more with placement. I will re design my new stage area around that final "best" sub placement we can find.
I may never get this whole thing perfect with the limitations I have within the room, but I at least want to try my best before I stop!

Thanks guys for all your help, its greatly appreciated, I value all your knowledge.
Cinema Plan - 2013-06-02.pdf 29k .pdf file

Edited by RapalloAV - 6/3/13 at 1:09am
post #62373 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

I will do anything to try to improve things.....
I think you have in-ceiling speakers, are you willing to install in-ceiling subs?
post #62374 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I think you have in-ceiling speakers, are you willing to install in-ceiling subs?
Ha! No way...
The two Velodynes I have on the floor at the back now are "in ceiling" ones, they were in the ceiling when I first built the cinema and they were disastrous!
We spent months trying to tame them. The building vibrated and rattled, it was terrible, its 100% better with them finally out of the ceiling, I will never use a ceiling sub again.
post #62375 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Murray.  Great response - thanks for all the detail. 

I am glad you have found a set of mic positions that gives you a step towards the result you are after, but 
I suspect you have reached the limitations of what XT32 can do in a room like yours (and respect to you for the room too!). Using Audyssey in a big, multi-tiered room like yours is always tricky - the fact that there are risers means you inevitably have to compromise on mic height for example. Experimentation is the key, but I suspect you would like to spend more time watching movies than endlessly calibrating!  I know I would if I had that room!


You might want to consider Audyssey Pro. This allows you to use up to 32 mic positions and it also has a 'Target Curve Editor' which lets you make adjustments to the target curve that Audyssey is aiming for. Those adjustments might help. There is a dedicated thread for Pro help - it is linked in my sig.

Do you have REW for independent measuring? If you do, then you might care to take some measurements of the room, especially the bass, and see exactly what is going on in that back row. It might lead you to a case for a bit of independent parametric equalisation on the bass using something like the Behringer 1142P. REW is designed to work with the Behringer (and other PEQs) but I warn you now that it is a long road consisting of measuring, tweaking, measuring, tweaking, measuring, tweaking... and of course, good results are by no means guaranteed.

Other than that, given the physical limitations you mention wrt to sub placement and treatments, I am not sure there is anything else I can suggest. Maybe some of the other guys will have some ideas for you though. 

Gee Kbarnes this is sounding depressing.
I thought you and a couple of other very knowledgeable guys on this thread would have some answers......
Thank you so much for trying to help I wish there was something else I had not tried.

I don't have REW and I don't know if I have the knowledge to use it. I have had a look at the site but it looks a bit confusing.
I want to try and do more, I'm not the type to give up, can you help me please?

 

Hey Murray... no need to be depressed just yet :)  I pretty much limited my answers to the Audyssey issues you raised but Jerry has already chimed in with a few more great ideas, although I do note that you said that moving and relocating subs was not possible. However, sometimes people find that things do become possible if they are the only solution!

 

I would second Jerry's suggestion that you get REW.  As I said before, the only way to be sure what is going on with that back row is to measure. REW is not nearly as intimidating these days as it used to be - all you need for the latest version is REW itself (a free download), a laptop with HDMI out, and an HDMI cable to connect to your processor. Plus a calibrated mic which will run you about 100 bucks. It is now a one cable connection. Download the excellent Guide that Jerry has prepared (link in my sig) and have a look. It is very easy to use these days. The thread that the guide is hosted in is designed for those new to REW and you will get all the help you need there.

 

Given your investment to date, another 100 bucks is not a lot - and it is the only way to find out what is actually happening, which is the first step to fixing it.

post #62376 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

rapallo, Ill do my best to help on the measurement stuff. REW can be a bit daunting at first, and I usually suggest if someone is getting into meaurement stuff to take a look at the dayton omnimic from partsexpress.com. It is an all-in-one solution that is quite easy to get up and running and while it is not as robust as REW, it can take great in-room measurements and decay measurements (Which will help you to work on fixing that "boom" you are getting.

As far as your treatments go, I am glad they have helped, but unfortunately even at the depth you are using, they can only do so much for the low bass, and considering the lowest bass wavelengths are so long, absorption isn't going to ever get you all the way there. The rear of the room is always going to be toughest area to fix. something like a helmholtz resonator would possibly be the ticket, but I don't even mess with those as they are quite involved to get right.
Bottom line is doing anymore will just be chasing your own tail if you don't have some type of measurement rig to actually see what your adjustments are doing. The external EQ is not that daunting of a tax either and the 1124 Keith suggested is another great suggestion to get you starting with minimal experience in post-audyssey eqing. If you get your results right now to the best they have been, a good way to mess around to avoid this bass situation at the rear of the room would be to adjust the sub distance settings to see if you can get it any better, whilst remembering where you started so you may default back if your efforts are in vain.

Again Guys, you are trying to tell people to start measurements in their rooms whilst they bought an auto-run room correction system they'd like to use without any hassle. This is like telling someone the helicopter is available for you on the ground and I'll help you during take-off by telling you what to do with all the bells & whistles!!! Please be reasonable with advice, unless otherwise you may cause more confusion to OPs than you could have helped. cool.gifcool.gifcool.gif

 

Feri, with respect, what you have written is nonsense.

 

Murray has stated that he has gone as far as he can with Audyssey and the result is not satisfactory. He now has to move beyond what Audyssey can do if he is to get the result he is seeking. 

 

Your constant view that Audyssey is the one and only answer to every problem is, frankly, ridiculous and not at all helpful to a guy who has taken a huge amount of time and trouble to tell us precisely what his problem is, supported with all sorts of data and photographs. To tell him, in effect, "you've bought an auto-run room correction system" so just be happy with it is insulting and pointless.

 

If Murray wants to address the problem he has eloquently described to us he now needs to go beyond what XT32 can do. I have suggested considering Pro, and using REW to discover what problems Audyssey has not been able to fix, and maybe some additional external parametric EQ on the bass. Jerry has suggested using the room modes calculator with a view to relocating the subs (plus using REW) and Beast has suggested additional treatments and using REW. Do you see a pattern developing here?

 

Murray is clearly not the average Joe Sixpack who buys some speakers and an AVR and plonks it down in his room, runs Audyssey and is done. You can surely tell from his build photos that he has put in a huge amount of effort and has one pesky problem that he cannot yet solve. He has even said he is not the type of guy to give up and that he is a perfectionist. Your suggestion that those of us who are trying to help him are actually causing more confusion for him is belittling his ability to understand what we are saying - if Murray is 'confused' then I am sure he can speak out for himself and, as always in this thread, he will be given all the help we can give him in order to remove his temporary confusion. 

 

Do you have any useful advice for Murray?

post #62377 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Again Guys, you are trying to tell people to start measurements in their rooms whilst they bought an auto-run room correction system they'd like to use without any hassle. This is like telling someone the helicopter is available for you on the ground and I'll help you during take-off by telling you what to do with all the bells & whistles!!! Please be reasonable with advice, unless otherwise you may cause more confusion to OPs than you could have helped. cool.gifcool.gifcool.gif

I'm really willing to listen to anyone who can help me. Fire suggestions and lets all try and make a decision from the ideas that come through. I'm not about to give up, as long as I have some of you to guide me I'm willing to work though this as best we can. If XT32 cant get me all the way and something else can, lets explore what's on the table. Im sure we can improve things as long as you can stay with me to help. Measurements are probably a very good start to see what we are dealing with if someone wants to help me with this.

Should I be looking at the Dayton Omni mic that Beastaudio has suggested?

BTW I do have the SMS-1 but that's only connected to the Velodyne at the rear. It has an Omni mic does it not?
http://velodyne.com/sms-1-digitalmanagement-system.html

 

You have a great attitude, Murray if you don't mind my saying so. I would ignore views that suggest Audyssey is the answer to all problems - it isn't (good as it is).

 

I'd seriously consider REW and a calibrated mic like the UMM-6. Apart from being about 200 bucks cheaper, REW is way more sophisticated and useful in many more practical ways. Beast is right that OmniMic is easy to use but there is very little support for it in the forums and it is very limited in what it can do. I bought OmniMic because I was daunted by REW in the past but I soon graduated to REW and currently my OM sits unused in a drawer. One of the main issues with OM is that the 'support' thread here on AVS is largely inactive and you would effectively be flying solo. With REW, you have dozens of guys in the REW/HDMI/USB thread who will be willing to help you out. First step - download and read Jerry's Guide. That will tell you how easy/difficult it is to get started. 

post #62378 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

If you get your results right now to the best they have been, a good way to mess around to avoid this bass situation at the rear of the room would be to adjust the sub distance settings to see if you can get it any better, whilst remembering where you started so you may default back if your efforts are in vain.

Adjusting the sub distance on the 80.3 do you mean? If so do you mean longer or shorter for the front subs?

I know the boom at the back comes from the front subes and not the rear, I have tested with and without.

Beast is referring to the 'sub distance tweak'. It's an area where Audyssey usually underperforms. I have compiled all the info for the tweak into one guide, attached. But before you can use the tweak you really need REW or some form of measuring the response as it changes. Doing it by ear is, unfortunately, not really possible.

 

Here's the Guide:

 

 

 

 

Audyssey Sub Distance Tweak Guide 986k .pdf file
post #62379 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

Okay smile.gif

1. Get some basic measuring stuff - you've gone way too far with that room not to have. Be aware that for you, measuring will be an all consuming passion in short order eek.gif

2. How about taking up that last row of seats temporarily? Store them somewhere, commit to 3 months without them. In that time, see what useful things you can do with the newly available space. Then decide if you want the chairs back.

Option 1. I know is a must and will do this.
Option 2. is no go. I often have 12 people over for a movie, I cant go back to 8.

 

Murray, you may have to accept that it is not possible to get the room into perfect shape for 12 different seats. That is a heck of a tall order for anyone, and you have limitations wrt to speaker, sub and acoustic panel placement, which are probably the only real way to get this issue bottomed out. 

 

It's probably the case that out of the 12 people you invite over for a movie, some of them couldn't care less about the sound and are just overwhelmed and overjoyed at the prospect of a 'private screening' in a damn fine home theatre. If that is the case, stick them in the 'less than perfect' seats and put the true AV aficionados on the middle row with yourself.

 

I realise this is a compromise you may not wish to make, but, as the man said, "ya canna break the laws of physics". If you really can't add more, or more suitable, treatments, move the subs around, eliminate the problem back row etc, then you may just have to live with it.  But before we get to that point, do consider getting REW and a UMM-6 and learning how to measure the room. When you SEE what is actually going on in the room, in graphic form, you may well discover a previously-unknown flexibility. Many do ;)

post #62380 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

OK so I better get going with REW do I, do you all agree?

 

I agree.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I don't think you can go wrong with REW. Several of the REW thread participants are converts from OmniMic.

 

I agree again (and I was one of the converts and would never go back).

post #62381 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

I am very good at testing and trying to improve things, that doesn't worry me as Ive been doing so much for the past year or so. When I go to my cinema its usually more about playing with it than watching movies. I was a projectionist for over 35 years so I spent a lot of time playing with the toys more than watching film.

I am however a bit afraid of REV if its going to be frustrating to use as a first timer. Omnimic looks like it might be easier for me as a beginner, does anyone else want to pitch in?

 

Don't be afraid of REW. I was and it held me back and caused me to spend 300 bucks plus carriage to the UK for OmniMic, which never really did what I wanted.

 

Look Murray, I am the least technical guy you can imagine. I threw Windows out years ago and bought a Mac because it just was easier to use. Then in order to use OM (REW is Mac-friendly) I had to also buy a Windows laptop and re-learn how to use it, just for OM (and Audyssey Pro). So I had two learning curves in one there. I know nothing about software, nothing about Windows and am not interested. I have no technical background at all (my background is the creative side of advertising). But -- with the help of the guys in the REW thread, and Jerry's Guide -- I was taking measurements with REW on the first day I got my mic in the mail. I now consider myself at least reasonably proficient with REW and the measurements I have taken have helped me identify and fix all sorts of issues, leading to better sound in my small two-seat HT.

 

The investment, in cash terms, is 100 bucks. Chickenfeed compared with what you have spent so far. And if you really don't get on with REW, you will sell that calibrated mic in a snap, here on AVS - probably for 75 bucks or so. 

 

End of the day, it's up to you. OM is easy but not very flexible and costs 300 bucks IIRC. REW is a little more difficult but massively more useful and costs 100 bucks. I come down on the side of REW as you can see...

post #62382 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post


I placed the L&R front subs 3' 6" out from the front side walls, and placed the other pair 3'6" from the front wall back...

After EQ XT32 I noticed a huge difference, way more bass!!! louder!!! It is quite good, the back wall still is heavier than the other rows but it sounds cleaner, the whole room does, but the back wall could be better I'm sure. Ha that's the obsessive part of me;)
The two rear subs are still sitting in the back row at 3'6" from the ear side walls. I'm quite happy that things are sounding better. I would like to stay in this thread if its ok, I want to work more with placement and Audyssey for the time being.

If you want me to try measurements let me know, I will do anything to try to improve things.....

I am pleased you are making progress, Murray. As far as the back row, those seats are up against a wall. Since in any room, the effect of room modes is most intense near a room boundary, there isn't a whole lot up you can do to make it better. The only real way to address room modes is placement, either moving the subs (as you have done), or moving the listening spot. Since you are unwilling to give up the back row of seats, then, as Keith has suggested, place the least critical guests back there. wink.gif

Placing the subs in the 1/4 and 3/4 nulls can improve things, as you have found out. But the only real way to achieve additional improvements is to be able to measure the current state.
post #62383 of 70896
I just recalibrated Audyssey due to a few changes in my room. After the calibration I checked all my settings and noticed the LPF for LFE was set to 80Hz. I changed the setting to the recommended 120Hz. If I recall I was experimenting with the setting at 80Hz and I believe I forgot to change it back to 120Hz. I'm wondering with the setting set at 80Hz did it have an adverse effect on the calibration?

Bill
post #62384 of 70896
Quick question about setting up a sub...

I just came across the idea that if Audyssey sets your sub's level to -12, then the sub's gain is too high and should be lowered (I set it at 1/2 way as suggested and -12 is what I got). Am I correct in saying that my goal should be to keep adjusting the sub's gain until Audyssey hits 0db?
post #62385 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbogast777 View Post

Quick question about setting up a sub...
I just came across the idea that if Audyssey sets your sub's level to -12, then the sub's gain is too high and should be lowered (I set it at 1/2 way as suggested and -12 is what I got). Am I correct in saying that my goal should be to keep adjusting the sub's gain until Audyssey hits 0db?

+ or - 3 db is the traditional goal
post #62386 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbogast777 View Post

Quick question about setting up a sub...

I just came across the idea that if Audyssey sets your sub's level to -12, then the sub's gain is too high and should be lowered (I set it at 1/2 way as suggested and -12 is what I got). Am I correct in saying that my goal should be to keep adjusting the sub's gain until Audyssey hits 0db?

The closer you are to 0dB, the better. It sounds a lot better, although as pointed out, +/-3dB is the range to aim for.
post #62387 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I just recalibrated Audyssey due to a few changes in my room. After the calibration I checked all my settings and noticed the LPF for LFE was set to 80Hz. I changed the setting to the recommended 120Hz. If I recall I was experimenting with the setting at 80Hz and I believe I forgot to change it back to 120Hz. I'm wondering with the setting set at 80Hz did it have an adverse effect on the calibration? Bill

Bill, you're fine. User settings, including this one, have no effect on the Audyssey calibration.
post #62388 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I just recalibrated Audyssey due to a few changes in my room. After the calibration I checked all my settings and noticed the LPF for LFE was set to 80Hz. I changed the setting to the recommended 120Hz. If I recall I was experimenting with the setting at 80Hz and I believe I forgot to change it back to 120Hz. I'm wondering with the setting set at 80Hz did it have an adverse effect on the calibration?

Bill

 

No, Bill. It is ignored during the calibration. You are good to go.  EDIT: as SoM said in his post which I failed to spot :)

post #62389 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbogast777 View Post

Quick question about setting up a sub...

I just came across the idea that if Audyssey sets your sub's level to -12, then the sub's gain is too high and should be lowered (I set it at 1/2 way as suggested and -12 is what I got). Am I correct in saying that my goal should be to keep adjusting the sub's gain until Audyssey hits 0db?

 

You don't need to strive for 0dB. +/-3.5dB or thereabouts is fine.

 

See this FAQ answer for more info:

 

e)6. What do I do if my trim levels are at the limits of their adjustment ('maxed out')?

 

And this answer if you decide to run the subs 'hot', as some do:

 

f)4.    If I want to run my subs a little 'hot' where should I make the changes?

post #62390 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbogast777 View Post

Quick question about setting up a sub...

I just came across the idea that if Audyssey sets your sub's level to -12, then the sub's gain is too high and should be lowered (I set it at 1/2 way as suggested and -12 is what I got). Am I correct in saying that my goal should be to keep adjusting the sub's gain until Audyssey hits 0db?
Nope. jlpowell's advice is good-also see the Audyssey FAQ:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_e6

"It is important that no trim level is 'hitting the stops' or maxed out. The reason for this is that if you do hit the stops, you have no way of knowing if Audyssey would have gone even further if it had been able to. So if, for example, your sub is set to -15dB, then there is the possibility that it could have been set to -17dB if Audyssey had allowed it.
If subwoofer trim is maxed out:
Ideally, your sub should be in the trim range of approximately -3.5dB to +3.5dB. If your sub is not in this range then you can adjust it by using the sub volume control knob and running Audyssey again until you get the trim where you want it.
Also, one of the reasons for having Audyssey's subwoofer trim level in the +/- 3.5dB range is that values closer to -12 dB might prevent a subwoofer's Auto-On feature from working because the output of the receiver would be too low. (We recommend that if your sub has an 'Auto-on' setting on its power control, to turn this OFF before running MultEQ. This will ensure the sub always 'wakes up' when it is first pinged.) There is another reason why it is important to aim for a sub trim in the approximate range of +/- 3.5dB and this concerns the safety of your sub and avoiding damage to it. Please read this FAQ Technical Note for more information."
Quote:
Originally Posted by SARHENTO View Post

The closer you are to 0dB, the better. It sounds a lot better, although as pointed out, +/-3dB is the range to aim for.
What are you basing that on? I recommend you read the Audyssey FAQ and the linked technical note linked there.
post #62391 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SARHENTO View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arbogast777 View Post

Quick question about setting up a sub...

I just came across the idea that if Audyssey sets your sub's level to -12, then the sub's gain is too high and should be lowered (I set it at 1/2 way as suggested and -12 is what I got). Am I correct in saying that my goal should be to keep adjusting the sub's gain until Audyssey hits 0db?

The closer you are to 0dB, the better. It sounds a lot better, although as pointed out, +/-3dB is the range to aim for.

 

It will make no difference to the sound quality whether it is at 0dB or -3.5dB or +3.5dB, or even a fair bit outside those ranges.  There's no point in using a lot of trial and error to get close to 0dB.

post #62392 of 70896
he-he
Keith 1 SoM 2
biggrin.gif
post #62393 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Don't be afraid of REW. I was and it held me back and caused me to spend 300 bucks plus carriage to the UK for OmniMic, which never really did what I wanted.

Look Murray, I am the least technical guy you can imagine. I threw Windows out years ago and bought a Mac because it just was easier to use. Then in order to use OM (REW is Mac-friendly) I had to also buy a Windows laptop and re-learn how to use it, just for OM (and Audyssey Pro). So I had two learning curves in one there. I know nothing about software, nothing about Windows and am not interested. I have no technical background at all (my background is the creative side of advertising). But -- with the help of the guys in the REW thread, and Jerry's Guide -- I was taking measurements with REW on the first day I got my mic in the mail. I now consider myself at least reasonably proficient with REW and the measurements I have taken have helped me identify and fix all sorts of issues, leading to better sound in my small two-seat HT.

The investment, in cash terms, is 100 bucks. Chickenfeed compared with what you have spent so far. And if you really don't get on with REW, you will sell that calibrated mic in a snap, here on AVS - probably for 75 bucks or so. 

End of the day, it's up to you. OM is easy but not very flexible and costs 300 bucks IIRC. REW is a little more difficult but massively more useful and costs 100 bucks. I come down on the side of REW as you can see...

Totally agree, as another 'convert'. Not to add more "peer pressure", but ultimately the OmniMic users on AVS tend to be DIYers looking to build speakers and subs, and the ones using it with Audyssey actively are a minority. Unfortunately the dedicated thread is dormant - not just because of the momentum toward REW among Audyssey users, but because until recently, there was no way to use the OmniMic for the kind of individual channel (or pair of channels, such as center and subs) testing that we've been using to evaluate our systems. But cost aside ($100 for a UMM-6 mic and free REW download vs. $300ish for OmniMic), the evolving REW thread and Jerry's how-to guide will get you in on the ground floor of applied independent accessment use for HT acoustics, as well as Audyssey (and potentially other RC like YPAO or ultimately Dirac or Trinnov LOL) in general.
post #62394 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

No way... I will never use a ceiling sub again.
OK, just checking since your seating is in the way of some good subwoofer locations. Since there are no obstructions on the ceiling, I thought I'd ask.
post #62395 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SARHENTO View Post

The closer you are to 0dB, the better. It sounds a lot better, although as pointed out, +/-3dB is the range to aim for.

Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with Sub EQ HT set the level of my front subs at -2.0dB and my rear subs at -4.0dB.
post #62396 of 70896
You should have no worries there.
post #62397 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

I placed the L&R front subs 3' 6" out from the front side walls, and placed the other pair 3'6" from the front wall back, you can see the configuration in the images.

After EQ XT32 I noticed a huge difference, way more bass!!! louder!!! It is quite good, the back wall still is heavier than the other rows but it sounds cleaner, the whole room does, but the back wall could be better I'm sure. Ha that's the obsessive part of me;)
The solution is this. Use the first 2 rows whenever possible. The third row only for those occasions when it's a full house, or when the material is not bass critical (sports or other such TV).

The unfortunate reality of placing seats right against the rear wall is elevated bass that is significantly out of balance with the other rows. It will not be possible to unify the bass response across all the seats in that case. If you could move the rear seats even 2 feet forward, it would help a lot, but it appears the riser is too shallow for that.
post #62398 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Don't be afraid of REW. I was and it held me back and caused me to spend 300 bucks plus carriage to the UK for OmniMic, which never really did what I wanted.

Look Murray, I am the least technical guy you can imagine. I threw Windows out years ago and bought a Mac because it just was easier to use. Then in order to use OM (REW is Mac-friendly) I had to also buy a Windows laptop and re-learn how to use it, just for OM (and Audyssey Pro). So I had two learning curves in one there. I know nothing about software, nothing about Windows and am not interested. I have no technical background at all (my background is the creative side of advertising). But -- with the help of the guys in the REW thread, and Jerry's Guide -- I was taking measurements with REW on the first day I got my mic in the mail. I now consider myself at least reasonably proficient with REW and the measurements I have taken have helped me identify and fix all sorts of issues, leading to better sound in my small two-seat HT.

The investment, in cash terms, is 100 bucks. Chickenfeed compared with what you have spent so far. And if you really don't get on with REW, you will sell that calibrated mic in a snap, here on AVS - probably for 75 bucks or so. 

End of the day, it's up to you. OM is easy but not very flexible and costs 300 bucks IIRC. REW is a little more difficult but massively more useful and costs 100 bucks. I come down on the side of REW as you can see...

Kbarnes thank you for your support and the other guys who have shown they care too, its greatly appreciated smile.gif
You guys make me want to keep trying my best to improve my situation. I know the back row can never be perfect with the seats at the wall, but I want to get it as good as I can within reason. If it costs money so be it, Ive invested over 200k to date so a few more dollars is ok by me.

I will start on the tutorial and get the mic, I know I will need to import it as it wont be available in New Zealand.

Thanks guys......
post #62399 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Murray,

Take a look at the Room Mode Calculator (I converted 4x6x3 meters into feet and inches):
Your room dimensions present a difficult problem to overcome.  Note that the second order standing wave associated with the room width is 87Hz, and the 3rd order standing wave associated with the room length is also 87Hz.  This means that the 87Hz mode will be overwhelmingly present in the room, which could account for the bloated bass you are hearing.  (Also note that 58Hz is a standing wave associated with the length and the height of the room, which is also a serious issue.)

One way to address the 87Hz issue is sub placement.  On the front wall, try placing the subs at the 1/4 and 3/4 points of the room width (i.e. 3.25 feet from the left and right walls).  Same goes for the two rear subs.  Another option would be to place one pair of subs along the opposite side walls, either 3.25 feet from the front or back wall (i.e. the 1/6 or 5/6 points along the room length).  To address the 58Hz mode, place the two subs along opposite side walls at 4.75 feet from the front or back wall (i.e. the 1/4 and 3/4 points).  Ideally, place the two front subs to address the 87Hz mode, and the two side subs to address the 58Hz mode.

If you can't re-locate the subs, my fear is that you will not be able to address either mode by any other method.

Don't listen to the naysayer who feels that a room measurement system is not needed.  I looked at your home theater build thread, and you obviously invested a lot of time and money to build a really outstanding listening room.  Having gone this far, it would be a shame if you didn't develop the skills to assess the audio response in the room. If you don't, you will never be able to finish your room acoustically, which would be a shame.

Omnimic is a simple measurement system, and a good one.  However, you might also want to consider REW.  I know you were somewhat intimidated when you visited the Home Theater Shack web site.  However, we here at AVS have created a thread here, which is intended to make REW simple for first-time users like yourself.  You should also take a quick look at the REW Guide, referenced in a link in my signature, which is a step-by-step guide for beginners.  The cost of hardware is only about $100 to get started, and you can receive guidance from the many thread participants.

Good luck, and I hope you find the solution for your issue!

Austin

Can you help me with the new room sizes I posted please, I just want to see if I can move the subs into an even better position please up the front?
post #62400 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARHENTO View Post

The closer you are to 0dB, the better. It sounds a lot better, although as pointed out, +/-3dB is the range to aim for.

Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with Sub EQ HT set the level of my front subs at -2.0dB and my rear subs at -4.0dB.

 

Then chances are, you are good to go..

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