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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2094

post #62791 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It's like talking to a wall sometimes. Why don't you just go to the product page and read the description. http://www.primacoustic.com/tripads.htm

Product page says: (My comments in Italics)

TriPad Microphone Stand Isolator

Isolates the microphone stand from studio floor - No real description on what "isolation" means and how it's done
Eliminates disruptive resonance from entering the mic - How does it eliminate?
Cleans up signal for less noise when recording - How do such puffs clean up the signal?
Improves clarity to deliver more natural sound - No comment, eh? smile.gif

My last post on the subject! Let's move on bp. smile.gif
post #62792 of 70906
I have an Marantz SR6006 and I just ran Audyssey without a problem. My question is when I had a Denon receiver I had a surround profile for Audyssey Multi and I dont see that option with my Marantz. I want to be able to utilize my 7.1 setup best as possible. Did I skip a step with setting up my receiver or Audyssey Multi isn't an option for the Marantz? My current surround profiles are stereo, auto, virtual, neo, dolby digital, dolby d +PLII x Movie.
post #62793 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by in4maous View Post

I have an Marantz SR6006 and I just ran Audyssey without a problem. My question is when I had a Denon receiver I had a surround profile for Audyssey Multi and I dont see that option with my Marantz. I want to be able to utilize my 7.1 setup best as possible. Did I skip a step with setting up my receiver or Audyssey Multi isn't an option for the Marantz? My current surround profiles are stereo, auto, virtual, neo, dolby digital, dolby d +PLII x Movie.

Before running Audyssey you need to specify your speaker setup. So I think you skipped a step in your receiver when the relevant menu poped-up. Why not go back and answer all questions properly! smile.gif Your current profiles don't matter when it comes to Audyssey auto-setup, these profiles have nothing to do with running Audyssey room correction coz they are not part of the room correction routine, thus are ignored. smile.gif
post #62794 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Well I guess it's a good thing he clearly understood that as he stated that's the specific reason he bought them wink.gif

BTW the product description said "disruptive resonances" not "destructive" and also clearly refers to isolating the mic from vibrations transmitted through the floor.
Nobody was talking about room modes at all until you brought it up. Not sure what the point of your post was.

Yeah, Yeah that's what I meant... "Disruptive", "Disruptive"! tongue.gif


...Glenn smile.gif
post #62795 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It's like talking to a wall sometimes. Why don't you just go to the product page and read the description. http://www.primacoustic.com/tripads.htm

Product page says: (My comments in Italics)

TriPad Microphone Stand Isolator

Isolates the microphone stand from studio floor - No real description on what "isolation" means and how it's done
Eliminates disruptive resonance from entering the mic - How does it eliminate?
Cleans up signal for less noise when recording - How do such puffs clean up the signal?
Improves clarity to deliver more natural sound - No comment, eh? smile.gif

My last post on the subject! Let's move on bp. smile.gif

Notice absolutely nothing mentioned about room modes. So again, wondering why on earth you decided to post in the first place, or what you contributed to the discussion.
post #62796 of 70906
So are you suggesting running the setup again and where can I find the speaker profile menu?
post #62797 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by in4maous View Post

So are you suggesting running the setup again and where can I find the speaker profile menu?

Do you have a User's Manual? Sorry, but it's your homework to do! eek.gifcool.giftongue.gif
post #62798 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baumann View Post

Since my dual subs are relatively close to my main listening position and also on a hardwood suspended floor I opted to up the isolation ante and I purchased these Boom Microphone Stand isolators which are supposed to isolate the microphone from destructive resonances.

As to there effectiveness I cant comment but I figured hey what the heck it probably could not hurt... it is all about isolating the mic right! wink.gif


I purchased these Primacoustic Tripad Isolators:

http://www.primacoustic.com/tripads.htm


Purchased from here:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/primacoustic-tripad-tripod-mic-stand-isolator


...Glenn smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baumann View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Well I guess it's a good thing he clearly understood that as he stated that's the specific reason he bought them wink.gif

BTW the product description said "disruptive resonances" not "destructive" and also clearly refers to isolating the mic from vibrations transmitted through the floor.
Nobody was talking about room modes at all until you brought it up. Not sure what the point of your post was.

Yeah, Yeah that's what I meant... "Disruptive", "Disruptive"! tongue.gif


...Glenn smile.gif
LOL, one of these days, I'll have to get a set of those and see how they compare. For now, my homemade solution works pretty well.

I tried a combo of gel mouse pads and open cell foam car wash sponges. They really do a pretty good job of isolating the stand from the floor. The other more clunky option was to use the open cell foam between the mic and stand, but it's much more of a PITA as you can't compress the foam or it doesn't attenuate transmitted vibrations.

As far as the shock mounts myoda referred to, I have such equipment and discovered that they aren't as effective. The bands that isolate the mic have their own resonant frequencies. They can and do work well attenuating incidental contact vibrations from the mic, but because the calibration signals use full sweeps, you can still potentially hit the resonant frequencies of the bands. The open cell foam on the other hand reduces all vibrations and the gel pads do the same thing acting as inertial dampers (similar to the way in which high viscosity silicone is used to dampen crankshaft vibration in a Fluidampr (http://www.fluidampr.com/what/) .


Max
post #62799 of 70906
Something very interesting I would like to share….

I must have done 100 EQs with XT32 over the last 6 months or more trying to find new positions that might improve that old back wall I have. I have ALWAYS moved the crossovers up to 80Hz THX and as everyone always says you should.

So I thought really there is not much left, Ive tried everything I can think of…
Then I thought the only thing I never tried was to leave the crossovers where XT32 found them, bingo the back wall is heaps better!!!!
And there is still heaps of bass, it still hits you in the chest throughout the entire room but without that shocking loud resonating in the back row, it tamed it right down.
And I still haven’t even added any extra db to any of the four SVS SB13u up the front or the two 12" Velodyne up the back, still all at 75db. The settings ar as follows:

Front 70Hz
Centre 60Hz
Surround 40Hz
Front wide 70Hz
Front high 40Hz

All the speakers are Klipsch THX and this is the first time Ive never moved them all up to 80Hz in the last 1.5 years. I now less low end is going to all the subs, but why is it that the back wall resonating on the real low notes has softened?
Its very interesting, but for now I will leave it this way as overall the whole room its much more similar.


(BTW they have just shipped my Calibrated Dayton UMM-6 mic today) http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html

No one has ever suggested I try this, but I’m feeling more positive….
Edited by RapalloAV - 6/20/13 at 11:29pm
post #62800 of 70906
Worth a try.^^
post #62801 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Something very interesting I would like to share….

I must have done 100 EQs with XT32 over the last 6 months or more trying to find new positions that might improve that old back wall I have. I have ALWAYS moved the crossovers up to 80Hz THX and as everyone always says you should.

So I thought really there is not much left, Ive tried everything I can think of…
Then I thought the only thing I never tried was to leave the crossovers where XT32 found them, bingo the back wall is heaps better!!!!
And there is still heaps of bass, it still hits you in the chest throughout the entire room but without that shocking loud resonating in the back row, it tamed it right down.
And I still haven’t even added any extra db to any of the four SVS SB13u up the front or the two 12" Velodyne up the back, still all at 75db. The settings ar as follows:

Front 70db
Centre 60db
Surround 40db
Front wide 70db
Front high 40 db

All the speakers are Klipsch THX and this is the first time Ive never moved them all up to 80Hz in the last 1.5 years. I now less low end is going to all the subs, but why is it that the back wall resonating on the real low notes has softened?
Its very interesting, but for now I will leave it this way as overall the whole room its much more similar.


(BTW they have just shipped my Calibrated Dayton UMM-6 mic today) http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html

No one has ever suggested I try this, but I’m feeling more positive….
First off, all those settings should read Hz, not db wink.gif

Second, depending on your sub placement, it's entirely possible that they may be exciting nodes at certain frequencies in your room that the satellite/speaker placements do not.


Max
post #62802 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

First off, all those settings should read Hz, not db wink.gif

Second, depending on your sub placement, it's entirely possible that they may be exciting nodes at certain frequencies in your room that the satellite/speaker placements do not.


Max

Yes correct they should be Hz not db, silly me!
I have corrected them.
post #62803 of 70906
great.Audyssey is the future and I can not wait until the denon pre/pro comes out.
post #62804 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by aufrank View Post

great.Audyssey is the future and I can not wait until the denon pre/pro comes out.

What Denon pre/pro ? and when?
post #62805 of 70906
From Audyssey Sub Distance Tweak Procedure.pdf:
Quote:
What Audyssey does, it does well, but there are limits to what it actually measures and compares. The Audyssey calibration process is not utilized to determine or check the integration of the speakers at the critical crossover frequency. Audyssey focuses on response and time domain correction for each speaker in isolation; it does not measure the combined response of the subwoofer(s) and speakers together. As a result, it is possible the subwoofer / satellite speaker blend at the selected crossover region is not optimal after calibrating, as Audyssey cannot correct what it does not measure..
Does XT32 still have this problem? Audyssey should look into this problem and have an updated measurement in the future.
post #62806 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

 
Hi Glenn,

Me thinks those isolators are not meant to isolate the mic from "destructive resonances" (whatever that means), but from sound reaching the mic through wood (like in your case the hardwood suspended floor) where it travels faster than in plain air. smile.gif Those "destructive resonances", aka "room modes" are dependent on your room dimensions and as such are calculatable. You may look up a room mode calculator on the Net for more info on your room! smile.gif

 

You've missed the point, Feri. The guy is concerned with structural, material-borne resonances through his floor, as you say. But then you bring in room modes which has nothing to do with it confused.gif

post #62807 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Well I guess it's a good thing he clearly understood that as he stated that's the specific reason he bought them wink.gif

BTW the product description said "disruptive resonances" not "destructive" and also clearly refers to isolating the mic from vibrations transmitted through the floor.
Nobody was talking about room modes at all until you brought it up. Not sure what the point of your post was.

Please feel free to look up "vibrations" and "resonance" and "room modes" and you will see how they are interrelated, or in other words mean the same thing. smile.gif

 

There are many words in English that mean the same as other words. It's the context in which they are used which is important. Please don't start another thread disruption Feri based on irrelevances.

post #62808 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

If it's the same thing why did you feel the need to post and draw a distinction between room modes and vibration reaching the mic through the hardwood floors? The latter is what the product claims to deal with, and it's also what the OP stated he bought them for. So what are you talking about again?????

Did I make a distinction between room modes and vibration? I don't think so. I was talking about sound travelling through wood faster than through plain air, wasn't I? And that is supposed to be the purpose of such isolators: to prevent sucha phenomenon. smile.gif They won't take care of room modes, no way!

 

So why did you mention room modes?  You wabbled on about the dimensions of his room and how he could look up a calculator where he could input the dimensions and see the resulting room modes.

 

Those "destructive resonances", aka "room modes" are dependent on your room dimensions and as such are calculatable. You may look up a room mode calculator on the Net for more info on your room! 

 

What on earth does that have to do with isolating a mic stand from the floor it is placed on to prevent vibrations through the floor feeding into the mic stand?  (I know that was a question but it was rhetorical - please, please don't answer it).

post #62809 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Nice, Glen! I especially hate that foot-tapping resonance. smile.gif

I've been working at a television station for 7 years, and been in radio for over 30 years, and have never seen cheap foam pads on mic stands. This is a time tested solution:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_mount

 

I actually tried to find a mount like that to use with my Audyssey Pro mic but they don't seem to exist for the kind of mics we use in AV hobbyism. 

 

EDIT: Max makes a good point though about the resonant frequencies of the rubber bands. When I have seen this sort of mic mount used in studios it has always been for voice recording - ie a limited FR. Not saying they aren't used for other purposes, just that that is all I personally have seen them used for.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 6/21/13 at 3:57am
post #62810 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Notice absolutely nothing mentioned about room modes. So again, wondering why on earth you decided to post in the first place, or what you contributed to the discussion.

 

Quite. I dread to think how confusing all this irrelevant waffle is to a newcomer to the thread who is trying to find useful and correct information. There's a reasonable possibility of someone reading a few recent posts and then coming to the conclusion that room modes are material/structural-borne vibrations. Sheesh.  Every time such a ludicrous proposition is made, others then have to step in to correct it. It is starting to become tiresome IMO.

post #62811 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

From Audyssey Sub Distance Tweak Procedure.pdf:
Quote:
What Audyssey does, it does well, but there are limits to what it actually measures and compares. The Audyssey calibration process is not utilized to determine or check the integration of the speakers at the critical crossover frequency. Audyssey focuses on response and time domain correction for each speaker in isolation; it does not measure the combined response of the subwoofer(s) and speakers together. As a result, it is possible the subwoofer / satellite speaker blend at the selected crossover region is not optimal after calibrating, as Audyssey cannot correct what it does not measure..
Does XT32 still have this problem? Audyssey should look into this problem and have an updated measurement in the future.

 

Yes it does. Audyssey doesn't measure the combined response of the speakers and subs so it can't make any allowance for their interaction. I doubt if this feature will ever be introduced into XT32. It is against the 'Audyssey philosophy' of using multiple mic positions for one thing - the post-cal measurements would have to be made using the exact same mic positions and this is more or less impossible. 

 

Also, I think it is important to remember what XT32 is: it is an automated room correction system. As such is it is designed to be easy to use by anyone, with no knowledge of acoustics or measuring etc required. Using software and a mic to examine the phase relationships between subs and satellites is fairly advanced technique and so doesn’t really come under the scope of the automated system.

 

It isn’t really a 'problem' that Audyssey needs to fix - it is a limitation of an automated system.

post #62812 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I dread to think how confusing all this irrelevant waffle is to a newcomer to the thread who is trying to find useful and correct information.

 

I'm guessing a lot of people simply dismiss the entire thread as endless postings by identical people with more agendas than helpful information. Sure there are a few gems but overall it's more entertaining for the bickering. My pet peeve is the requirement these people have to answer a question regardless of how many have already answered it identically. Makes one wonder who the post is actually for...

post #62813 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufrank View Post

great.Audyssey is the future and I can not wait until the denon pre/pro comes out.

What Denon pre/pro ? and when?

The current D&M pre/pro is the Marantz AV8801. It's identical to the Denon AVR4520 receiver but with the power amps replaced by HDAM modules and speaker binding posts replaced by XLR connectors. Plus different fascia and logos.
post #62814 of 70906
Hmm, so if I stand outside with a tuning fork and strike it against the curb, the "Vibration" I am hearing is actually a room mode? Haha, now that is funny.
post #62815 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by in4maous View Post

I have an Marantz SR6006 and I just ran Audyssey without a problem. My question is when I had a Denon receiver I had a surround profile for Audyssey Multi and I dont see that option with my Marantz. I want to be able to utilize my 7.1 setup best as possible. Did I skip a step with setting up my receiver or Audyssey Multi isn't an option for the Marantz? My current surround profiles are stereo, auto, virtual, neo, dolby digital, dolby d +PLII x Movie.

Depending on whether or not you are inputting PCM or bitstream on your player, the "multi" will automatically happen with the Marantz. If it is bitstream, the unit will show it as TrueHD or DTS as the Marantz will be dcoding the bitstream, and if you are inputting PCM (aka the BD player is doing the decoding) then the unit will show "Multi in." Holding down the movie button on the Marantz remote is the other way to get to additional sound profiles if you want to edit additionally.
post #62816 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by in4maous View Post

I have an Marantz SR6006 and I just ran Audyssey without a problem. My question is when I had a Denon receiver I had a surround profile for Audyssey Multi and I dont see that option with my Marantz. I want to be able to utilize my 7.1 setup best as possible. Did I skip a step with setting up my receiver or Audyssey Multi isn't an option for the Marantz? My current surround profiles are stereo, auto, virtual, neo, dolby digital, dolby d +PLII x Movie.

You are confused about something, there is no such thing as a "surround profile for Audyssey Multi" on any Denon AVR. The surround mode is disconnected from the Audyssey stuff (with the exception of DSX of course which is a surround mode, but leaving that aside). Audyssey doesn't do "surround profiles", there is a single calibration which balances and EQ's all of your speakers and this applies to any surround mode.

As beastaudio points out you are probably conflating the MULTI IN surround mode (indicating the multichannel PCM input) with the Audyssey settings. Audyssey stuff (MultEQ, Dyn EQ, Dyn Vol) can be combined with any surround mode. So it's likely the difference is just in the way the newer Marantz is displaying the info. The current choices you list indicate that the receiver is getting a Dolby Digital 5.1 input.
post #62817 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Hmm, so if I stand outside with a tuning fork and strike it against the curb, the "Vibration" I am hearing is actually a room mode? Haha, now that is funny.

The tuning fork is a silly example beastaudio, most common tuning forks are made to resonate at 440 Hz, but I hope you agree with me that you can even excite your room modes with bass sound coming from the outside, eh? And in that case no mic stand pads will do any justice. The only way is to sound proof the room. That's all. smile.gif
post #62818 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I actually tried to find a mount like that to use with my Audyssey Pro mic but they don't seem to exist for the kind of mics we use in AV hobbyism. 

EDIT: Max makes a good point though about the resonant frequencies of the rubber bands. When I have seen this sort of mic mount used in studios it has always been for voice recording - ie a limited FR. Not saying they aren't used for other purposes, just that that is all I personally have seen them used for.

Hi Keith,

I don't participate much here since you and other as so good at answering questing quickly. But, I thought I'd chime in on this one. There is a shock mount you can use for your Audyssey Pro mic, I use one for mine. They are made for holding 'Pencil Type' mics, which the Audyssey Pro falls under. I have used this one with great results - holds the mic well. I already had some on hand (along with the standard type for condenser mics like pictured) as I do some recording.

Mic:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/audio-technica-at8410a-shock-mount



You may want to post this in the Audyssey Pro thread also if you feel there would be interest. If you would like a pic of the actual mic mounted on a stand with this shock mount, just let me know.
post #62819 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I dread to think how confusing all this irrelevant waffle is to a newcomer to the thread who is trying to find useful and correct information.

 

Quote:
I'm guessing a lot of people simply dismiss the entire thread as endless postings by identical people with more agendas than helpful information. 

 

If so then they are doing themselves a disservice IMO. This thread is the biggest on AVS and probably one of the most widely read and most influential in helping people. 

 

Quote:
Sure there are a few gems but overall it's more entertaining for the bickering. My pet peeve is the requirement these people have to answer a question regardless of how many have already answered it identically. 

 

I think this is called 'helping people' ;) The thread is too long and cumbersome to search easily so many people just dive in and ask their question, unaware it has been answered numerous times. I generally just refer them to the FAQ, but will often add a line or two of additional info if the FAQ doesn't cover it in full. 

post #62820 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I actually tried to find a mount like that to use with my Audyssey Pro mic but they don't seem to exist for the kind of mics we use in AV hobbyism. 

EDIT: Max makes a good point though about the resonant frequencies of the rubber bands. When I have seen this sort of mic mount used in studios it has always been for voice recording - ie a limited FR. Not saying they aren't used for other purposes, just that that is all I personally have seen them used for.

Hi Keith,

I don't participate much here since you and other as so good at answering questing quickly. But, I thought I'd chime in on this one. There is a shock mount you can use for your Audyssey Pro mic, I use one for mine. They are made for holding 'Pencil Type' mics, which the Audyssey Pro falls under. I have used this one with great results - holds the mic well. I already had some on hand (along with the standard type for condenser mics like pictured) as I do some recording.

Mic:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/audio-technica-at8410a-shock-mount



You may want to post this in the Audyssey Pro thread also if you feel there would be interest. If you would like a pic of the actual mic mounted on a stand with this shock mount, just let me know.

 

Hey Ray. Thanks for that info!  Yes please, a photo would be great. I can add it and the info to the Audyssey and Audyssey Pro FAQs.

 

HST, Max's comments wrt to the resonant frequency of the rubber bands gives some cause for concern. Have you measured whether this is an issue for you or not when using the mount?

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