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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2095

post #62821 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

The current D&M pre/pro is the Marantz AV8801. It's identical to the Denon AVR4520 receiver but with the power amps replaced by HDAM modules and speaker binding posts replaced by XLR connectors. Plus different fascia and logos.

And a few other things you didn't mention , I own an 8801 wink.gif
post #62822 of 70896
Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but concerning Audyssey LFC, has it been discussed how to practically use this feature and whether it even works well (ie in conjunction with dynamic volume, dynamic eq, etc)?

I just noticed it on my new receivers spec sheet and its got me curious on how to implement it into my late night viewing when everyone else is asleep.
post #62823 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hey Ray. Thanks for that info!  Yes please, a photo would be great. I can add it and the info to the Audyssey and Audyssey Pro FAQs.

HST, Max's comments wrt to the resonant frequency of the rubber bands gives some cause for concern. Have you measured whether this is an issue for you or not when using the mount?

Keith,

Most microphone shock mounts are designed to reduce (not eliminate- pretty impossible to do) low freq vibrations from entering the mic from the mic stand/boom. I have never had any problems using them - actually just the opposite as voices can actually sound 'smeared' when not using them, which is why pretty much all recording studios use them. I do a lot of audio for video and always use shock mounts, especially for condenser mics). The one that comes with the Audyssey Pro mic actually does the same job (and is much cheaper, which is why they are using such a mount). I like the spider shock mount better for control and stability - stays exactly where I put it without bending like the Audyssey version.

Here are pictures of the Audyssey Pro mic mounted on a stand (all my equipment for this is listed in my profile). I use a low profile stand for this which has a 48" reach on the boom - keeps the stand 'out of the picture' when doing calibrations. Feel free to use the pictures anyway you want.

Thanks again for contributing a LOT in the various threads (along with others). You all are amazing at answering questions quickly in the Audyssey threads (and of course various other threads).



post #62824 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but concerning Audyssey LFC, has it been discussed how to practically use this feature and whether it even works well (ie in conjunction with dynamic volume, dynamic eq, etc)?

I just noticed it on my new receivers spec sheet and its got me curious on how to implement it into my late night viewing when everyone else is asleep.

It hasn't really been discussed in this thread; here we are mostly focused on Audyssey calibration (MultEQ) specifically, and secondarily with Dynamic EQ... then Dynamic Volume and DSX get progressively less coverage, and LFC basically none.

Another factor is probably that the feature is available in so few models, AFAIK, only the Denon 4520CI (and its Marantz 8801 pre-pro twin) and now the brand new Denon X4000. So few people have really used it that much as it's not widely available, and the types of people buying high-end gear like the 4520CI are probably the people with big houses and dedicated theater room who don't even need it! wink.gif

Your best bet is to check the owner's threads of the models noted above and search for "LFC" and see what folks have said. I'll get you started by quoting myself from a post in the 4520CI thread where I gave my impressions of LFC and also linked a post from AustinJerry where he measured what it does. (see quote down below)

I'll note here that LFC only requires Audyssey MultEQ to be enabled; it can work with or without Dynamic EQ / Volume. Because it specifically targets the bass, you can use it strategically in conjunction with Dynamic EQ/Vol. I'll relate some of my own experience to illustrate this. Because I live in a smallish townhouse with thin walls, with a baby/wife sleeping right upstairs, the biggest issue for me is bass transmitting through the walls. LFC allows me to target the bass directly which enriches the rest of the audio quality. For example, Dynamic EQ is boosting the bass, but also the high freqs to a lesser extent, and also the surrounds. When you tweak Dynamic EQ by adjusting the Ref Level Offset, you impact all the things that Dyn EQ does. If you crank the Ref Offset to max (15dB) to combat boomy bass, you are also going to dull the details a bit and lose the surround immersion. With LFC, you can hit the bass directly and only when needed (e.g. late at night).

Similarly, let's say you use Dynamic Volume to blunt the bass for late night listening... before I cranked it all the way to max (Heavy/Midnight) for late night viewing in an effort to deal with the bass... but honestly Dyn Vol doesn't do that much to contain the bass. It prevents loud spikes of course but it doesn't really attenuate the rumble that's already there, so even on max compression I still did some yo-yo-ing with the volume to hear dialogue but turn it down for the loud stuff. With LFC, again, I can directly attenuate the bass by the desired amount, which allows me to run Dyn Vol at a lower level (Medium) so dialogue and overall dynamics are clearer, I just blunt the bass.

So, wrapping it up... most of my viewing is streaming content through my Roku. Previously, my typical viewing (late at night, after work, baby and wife are asleep) would be Dyn EQ on with a 10-15dB ref offset, and Dyn Vol cranked up to max (Heavy). Now, I use only a 5dB ref offset, and Dyn Vol on Medium, but turn on LFC to attenuate the bass. So the bass is lessened, but everything else is better. It's a superior tradeoff for me. (on a side note, not related to LFC, it's worth noting that XT32 gets some credit too, as it has fully tamed some remnant boominess from the subwoofer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It works well for me, I use it for late night viewing while the wife is asleep upstairs and the combination of the increased clarity provided by XT32 and the bass attenuation of LFC has dramatically reduced the incidence of complaints from the wife. The truest empirical test! smile.gif Previously (Denon 2113 with XT) I had to set the ref level offset at 10 or 15 and Dynamic Volume at Heavy (Midnight) setting and I still got some complaints with bass effects and louder passages. With LFC engaged, combined with the much smoother bass calibration + extra dialogue clarity provided by XT32, I now only use a ref level offset of 5dB and keep Dyn Vol on Medium. It's a better overall solution because there are superior clarity and dynamics overall but I can target the bass directly with LFC as opposed to dulling the overall soundfield by maxing out the ref offset and Dyn Vol levels.

I quoted AustinJerry's measurements of LFC below, you can see there is a significant amount of attenuation in the bass. However, due to whatever "psychoacoustic processing" secret sauce Audyssey does, it certainly doesn't SOUND like there is 20-30dB of bass attenuation.

The strength of the effect really varies based on the "containment amount" setting (varying from 1-7). At the lowest setting (1) it barely feels like the bass is being attenuated, although Jerry's graphs demonstrate that there is actually around 15dB of attenuation at the lower frequencies. Obviously you don't get that "feel it in your body" rumble but that's precisely the stuff that transmits through walls which you are trying to eliminate... overall at the lower containment settings the bass doesn't feel that neutered though. As you crank up the containment, the bass gets more and more anemic, at levels above the default (4) it definitely feels neutered, although not nearly as bad as if you switched the sub off completely for example.

Overall it works as advertised. I definitely wouldn't call it a "gimmick". You can dial in the containment setting that gives you a good balance of preserving bass impact while cutting out the transmission through walls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Measurement is taken from the Sub1 pre-out.  LFC requires Audyssey to be engaged.  DEQ and DVol are off, of course.  At 20Hz, toggling through LFC values of 1,2,3, and 4 results in a decrease of -15dB, -20dB, -24dB, and -27dB, respectively.  Pretty kind to the neighbors, I suspect.  smile.gif



post #62825 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Keith,

Most microphone shock mounts are designed to reduce (not eliminate- pretty impossible to do) low freq vibrations from entering the mic from the mic stand/boom. I have never had any problems using them - actually just the opposite as voices can actually sound 'smeared' when not using them, which is why pretty much all recording studios use them. I do a lot of audio for video and always use shock mounts, especially for condenser mics). The one that comes with the Audyssey Pro mic actually does the same job (and is much cheaper, which is why they are using such a mount). I like the spider shock mount better for control and stability - stays exactly where I put it without bending like the Audyssey version.

 

Good point about the Pro mic mount attempting a similar job. I hadn't considered that. I actually hate the Audyssey flexible mount as it makes it so darn difficult to orientate the mic properly - as you say, it bends every which way. I think you have just cost me 50 bucks :)

 

Quote:
Here are pictures of the Audyssey Pro mic mounted on a stand (all my equipment for this is listed in my profile). I use a low profile stand for this which has a 48" reach on the boom - keeps the stand 'out of the picture' when doing calibrations. Feel free to use the pictures anyway you want.

 

Many thanks. Max is also a big fan of the low profile stand. I'll add your photos and links to the relevant parts of the FAQs (credited to you of course) - always good to give people a choice.

 
Quote:
Thanks again for contributing a LOT in the various threads (along with others). You all are amazing at answering questions quickly in the Audyssey threads (and of course various other threads).
Thanks very much - it's appreciated.
post #62826 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It hasn't really been discussed in this thread; here we are mostly focused on Audyssey calibration (MultEQ) specifically, and secondarily with Dynamic EQ... then Dynamic Volume and DSX get progressively less coverage, and LFC basically none.

Another factor is probably that the feature is available in so few models, AFAIK, only the Denon 4520CI (and its Marantz 8801 pre-pro twin) and now the brand new Denon X4000. So few people have really used it that much as it's not widely available, and the types of people buying high-end gear like the 4520CI are probably the people with big houses and dedicated theater room who don't even need it! wink.gif

Your best bet is to check the owner's threads of the models noted above and search for "LFC" and see what folks have said. I'll get you started by quoting myself from a post in the 4520CI thread where I gave my impressions of LFC and also linked a post from AustinJerry where he measured what it does. (see quote down below)
 

 

Terrifically useful and informative post, baptpig. I actually had no idea what LFC really does, other than in the broadest sense. With your consent I will add this as a new question to the FAQ, cannibalising most of your material in your post (crediting you of course with the work).

 

One thing I might suggest for your consideration, given the circumstances you have wrt to wife, baby and neighbours late at night: have you tried or considered a tactile transducer (eg a Crowson or a Buttkicker)? I have used one of these under the principal listening seat for a long time - mainly because I have concrete floors and even two Submersives can’t shake concrete floors. Well, not much ;)

 

When you use a TT, the effect is quite remarkable. You can turn down the (audible) bass massively, without losing the 'sense' of deep, loud bass. I have experimented with this and while thinking I am listening to really loud bass, I have stood up and - suddenly - almost all the bass has disappeared!  Sit down again and it all returns. It is an uncanny effect.  I have the TT set up conservatively - that is I haven't got it set up to shake my chair until my fillings start to loosen - just enough so that it adds a nice thump at the bottom end. The Buttkicker amp that I use has controls to allow you to set the crossover and slope and volume so you can get it just how you want it. 

 

It's well worth, IMO, considering in circumstances like yours.

post #62827 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Good point about the Pro mic mount attempting a similar job. I hadn't considered that. I actually hate the Audyssey flexible mount as it makes it so darn difficult to orientate the mic properly - as you say, it bends every which way. I think you have just cost me 50 bucks smile.gif


Many thanks. Max is also a big fan of the low profile stand. I'll add your photos and links to the relevant parts of the FAQs (credited to you of course) - always good to give people a choice.

Yep, the Audyssey mount does bend every which way - I only used it once and decided against it. Sorry about making you spend money...biggrin.gif, but well worth it if you use it a lot.

Here is the mic stand I use. There are many choices out there for low profile mics, but this one has the greatest reach.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/hercules-stands-ms540b-low-profile-tripod-microphone-boom-stand

post #62828 of 70896
I have the basic audyssey microphone that was included with my Marantz AV8801. I purchased a microphone stand from a local music shop. Where can I purchase an adapter to connect the microphone to the stand? Can someone please provide a link?
post #62829 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

I have the basic audyssey microphone that was included with my Marantz AV8801. I purchased a microphone stand from a local music shop. Where can I purchase an adapter to connect the microphone to the stand? Can someone please provide a link?

http://www.amazon.com/CM01-Camera-Digital-Recorder-Adapter/dp/B001GWCC4I/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1371843895&sr=8-3&keywords=microphone+stand+adapter
post #62830 of 70896
Keith and Jerry I would really like you to comment on my post yesterday, I know you didn't see it as it got buried in the mic dispute cool.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/62790#post_23451805
post #62831 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

 
Yep, the Audyssey mount does bend every which way - I only used it once and decided against it. Sorry about making you spend money...biggrin.gif, but well worth it if you use it a lot.

Here is the mic stand I use. There are many choices out there for low profile mics, but this one has the greatest reach.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/hercules-stands-ms540b-low-profile-tripod-microphone-boom-stand
 

 

Phew, just bought the mount (75 bucks in the UK). Fortunately I saw this post after buying the mount so I wasn't tempted again.... :)  LOL. I will love that mount and it will be used a lot as my REW mic will fit into it as well. Thanks for the links.

post #62832 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Something very interesting I would like to share….

I must have done 100 EQs with XT32 over the last 6 months or more trying to find new positions that might improve that old back wall I have. I have ALWAYS moved the crossovers up to 80Hz THX and as everyone always says you should.

So I thought really there is not much left, Ive tried everything I can think of…
Then I thought the only thing I never tried was to leave the crossovers where XT32 found them, bingo the back wall is heaps better!!!!
And there is still heaps of bass, it still hits you in the chest throughout the entire room but without that shocking loud resonating in the back row, it tamed it right down.
And I still haven’t even added any extra db to any of the four SVS SB13u up the front or the two 12" Velodyne up the back, still all at 75db. The settings ar as follows:

Front 70Hz
Centre 60Hz
Surround 40Hz
Front wide 70Hz
Front high 40Hz

All the speakers are Klipsch THX and this is the first time Ive never moved them all up to 80Hz in the last 1.5 years. I now less low end is going to all the subs, but why is it that the back wall resonating on the real low notes has softened?
Its very interesting, but for now I will leave it this way as overall the whole room its much more similar.


(BTW they have just shipped my Calibrated Dayton UMM-6 mic today) http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html

No one has ever suggested I try this, but I’m feeling more positive….

 

It never even occurred to me to suggest using the XOs Audyssey offers. Changing the XO can certainly have an impact on your problem. You may well have shifted a modal resonance from one set of speakers (the subs) to another set by lowering the XO, and as the other set will be in a different location, it is possible that this will have solved your problem. Also, the bass that was exciting the mode may now be less powerful and this could affect the perceived result too. Bottom line: if it works and you like it, then nice job.

 

When you get REW and your mic, you will be able to measure and see the impact of these kinds of changes in graph form. It really helps with the troubleshooting.

post #62833 of 70896
Murray,

I agree with Keith. However, I'm not convinced that a small crossover change could produce a significant difference, but I certainly could be wrong. Now that your mic is on the way, we will be looking forward to seeing some measurements that confirm the progress you have been making.
post #62834 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but concerning Audyssey LFC, has it been discussed how to practically use this feature and whether it even works well (ie in conjunction with dynamic volume, dynamic eq, etc)?

I just noticed it on my new receivers spec sheet and its got me curious on how to implement it into my late night viewing when everyone else is asleep.

It hasn't really been discussed in this thread; here we are mostly focused on Audyssey calibration (MultEQ) specifically, and secondarily with Dynamic EQ... then Dynamic Volume and DSX get progressively less coverage, and LFC basically none.

Another factor is probably that the feature is available in so few models, AFAIK, only the Denon 4520CI (and its Marantz 8801 pre-pro twin) and now the brand new Denon X4000. So few people have really used it that much as it's not widely available, and the types of people buying high-end gear like the 4520CI are probably the people with big houses and dedicated theater room who don't even need it! wink.gif

Your best bet is to check the owner's threads of the models noted above and search for "LFC" and see what folks have said. I'll get you started by quoting myself from a post in the 4520CI thread where I gave my impressions of LFC and also linked a post from AustinJerry where he measured what it does. (see quote down below)

I'll note here that LFC only requires Audyssey MultEQ to be enabled; it can work with or without Dynamic EQ / Volume. Because it specifically targets the bass, you can use it strategically in conjunction with Dynamic EQ/Vol. I'll relate some of my own experience to illustrate this. Because I live in a smallish townhouse with thin walls, with a baby/wife sleeping right upstairs, the biggest issue for me is bass transmitting through the walls. LFC allows me to target the bass directly which enriches the rest of the audio quality. For example, Dynamic EQ is boosting the bass, but also the high freqs to a lesser extent, and also the surrounds. When you tweak Dynamic EQ by adjusting the Ref Level Offset, you impact all the things that Dyn EQ does. If you crank the Ref Offset to max (15dB) to combat boomy bass, you are also going to dull the details a bit and lose the surround immersion. With LFC, you can hit the bass directly and only when needed (e.g. late at night).

Similarly, let's say you use Dynamic Volume to blunt the bass for late night listening... before I cranked it all the way to max (Heavy/Midnight) for late night viewing in an effort to deal with the bass... but honestly Dyn Vol doesn't do that much to contain the bass. It prevents loud spikes of course but it doesn't really attenuate the rumble that's already there, so even on max compression I still did some yo-yo-ing with the volume to hear dialogue but turn it down for the loud stuff. With LFC, again, I can directly attenuate the bass by the desired amount, which allows me to run Dyn Vol at a lower level (Medium) so dialogue and overall dynamics are clearer, I just blunt the bass.

So, wrapping it up... most of my viewing is streaming content through my Roku. Previously, my typical viewing (late at night, after work, baby and wife are asleep) would be Dyn EQ on with a 10-15dB ref offset, and Dyn Vol cranked up to max (Heavy). Now, I use only a 5dB ref offset, and Dyn Vol on Medium, but turn on LFC to attenuate the bass. So the bass is lessened, but everything else is better. It's a superior tradeoff for me. (on a side note, not related to LFC, it's worth noting that XT32 gets some credit too, as it has fully tamed some remnant boominess from the subwoofer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It works well for me, I use it for late night viewing while the wife is asleep upstairs and the combination of the increased clarity provided by XT32 and the bass attenuation of LFC has dramatically reduced the incidence of complaints from the wife. The truest empirical test! smile.gif Previously (Denon 2113 with XT) I had to set the ref level offset at 10 or 15 and Dynamic Volume at Heavy (Midnight) setting and I still got some complaints with bass effects and louder passages. With LFC engaged, combined with the much smoother bass calibration + extra dialogue clarity provided by XT32, I now only use a ref level offset of 5dB and keep Dyn Vol on Medium. It's a better overall solution because there are superior clarity and dynamics overall but I can target the bass directly with LFC as opposed to dulling the overall soundfield by maxing out the ref offset and Dyn Vol levels.

I quoted AustinJerry's measurements of LFC below, you can see there is a significant amount of attenuation in the bass. However, due to whatever "psychoacoustic processing" secret sauce Audyssey does, it certainly doesn't SOUND like there is 20-30dB of bass attenuation.

The strength of the effect really varies based on the "containment amount" setting (varying from 1-7). At the lowest setting (1) it barely feels like the bass is being attenuated, although Jerry's graphs demonstrate that there is actually around 15dB of attenuation at the lower frequencies. Obviously you don't get that "feel it in your body" rumble but that's precisely the stuff that transmits through walls which you are trying to eliminate... overall at the lower containment settings the bass doesn't feel that neutered though. As you crank up the containment, the bass gets more and more anemic, at levels above the default (4) it definitely feels neutered, although not nearly as bad as if you switched the sub off completely for example.

Overall it works as advertised. I definitely wouldn't call it a "gimmick". You can dial in the containment setting that gives you a good balance of preserving bass impact while cutting out the transmission through walls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Measurement is taken from the Sub1 pre-out.  LFC requires Audyssey to be engaged.  DEQ and DVol are off, of course.  At 20Hz, toggling through LFC values of 1,2,3, and 4 results in a decrease of -15dB, -20dB, -24dB, and -27dB, respectively.  Pretty kind to the neighbors, I suspect.  smile.gif




Wow, great information. This post pretty much nailed everything I was looking for. Like you I live in San Diego where home's tend to not get hometheater rooms that can contain the bass...at least not the sub 5million dollar ones right?! lol

Thanks again.

edit: BTW that post is so well contained it may make a good hyperlink for the awesome FAQ that Kbarnes maintains....i looked there first for it, as I do for every question I have before posting biggrin.gif
post #62835 of 70896
post #62836 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It never even occurred to me to suggest using the XOs Audyssey offers. Changing the XO can certainly have an impact on your problem. You may well have shifted a modal resonance from one set of speakers (the subs) to another set by lowering the XO, and as the other set will be in a different location, it is possible that this will have solved your problem. Also, the bass that was exciting the mode may now be less powerful and this could affect the perceived result too. Bottom line: if it works and you like it, then nice job.

When you get REW and your mic, you will be able to measure and see the impact of these kinds of changes in graph form. It really helps with the troubleshooting.

Keith and Jerry I'm absolutely right its the most amazing thing I have discovered in 17 months using Audyssey, I always moved all the crossovers up to 80Hz, this time I left them as is!

I mentioned some weeks ago that there was a piece of music/tone in the movie "Town" that was horrendous to listen to in the back row, it resonated in a shocking manner. I constantly used that section in the movie as a test after all the trial runs I did changing the mic positions over and over again.... trying to rid that horrid tone I was hearing, plus the constant heavy bloated bass in the back row. I even discovered I could lower it by placing the mic close to the back of the seat which I knew was not a good idea.

But after leaving the cross-overs where Audyssey found them and not moving them up to 80Hz, has eliminated the horrid resonating tone in the "Town" and I'm using the recommended mic positions recommended in the FAQs.

I have gone back in and as a test started to move the crossovers up again, all to 70Hz, the horrid tone in the Town in the back row gets louder, move them up higher to 80Hz and that tone gets loader again, move them up to 100Hz and it gets worse again.....

I'm thrilled, its amazing to finally have cleaned things up, if I cant move everything up to 80Hz so be it!
The sound is different in the room though (not as warm) but I have all the bass I would ever need. It still hits you in the chest and some areas go down so low you feel it entirely though your body and head, its great!
But it is clean now, the three rows seem very similar I would be happy to place anyone in any seat in the room, they are all great.

Is there anything you have to add, or anything you would like me to try or report back?

N.B. I never lowered the cross overs, just left them as set by Audyssey. In fact I have been also discovered by leaving alone what Audyssey finds seems to work much better for me. I used to raise the centre channel 2db but now Im leaving everything alone, for me it is better to trust in Audyssey.
Edited by RapalloAV - 6/21/13 at 4:14pm
post #62837 of 70896
stupid newbie question...

I thought that Audessey was to set all of your X-over points, levels, EQ settings, etc. and does it better than a average or beginner person can do on their own.

I am reading all of these threads of people changing X-Over points, levels, etc.

Is this OK to do as long as you do it "in your reciever settings"? In other words, when you change something like a cross over point in your receiver, does Audessy correct for thgat and adjust everything else automatically to accommodate that?

Audessy set my surrounds at 90 hz this time when before it would always set them at 70.....
post #62838 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post


Is there anything you have to add, or anything you would like me to try or report back?

Murray, I don't think anyone is doubting that the changes have made things sound better. In my case, I'm simply interested in seeing the measurements that reveal the difference that changing the crossover values makes. Trust your ears, but verify by measuring.
post #62839 of 70896
DiamondDog see this http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_c2

from the excellent FAQ posted in Kbarnes' signature.
post #62840 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond Dog View Post

stupid newbie question...

I thought that Audessey was to set all of your X-over points, levels, EQ settings, etc. and does it better than a average or beginner person can do on their own.

I am reading all of these threads of people changing X-Over points, levels, etc.

Is this OK to do as long as you do it "in your reciever settings"? In other words, when you change something like a cross over point in your receiver, does Audessy correct for thgat and adjust everything else automatically to accommodate that?

Audessy set my surrounds at 90 hz this time when before it would always set them at 70.....

First off, Audyssey does not set XOs, but the AVR does. Audyssey measures the -3 dB point of each speaker in the system, then "reports" it to the AVR which sets an initial XO at a closest preset upper frequency, e.g. if Audyssey determined the -3 dB roll-off at 56 Hz then the AVR will choose 60 Hz. In my Denon the available presets are 40, 60, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 150, 200, 250 Hz.

The typical setting is usually 80 Hz, coz that's the frequency from where below normal healty human ears start to loose directionality clues. For more info see the blog "Small vs. Large" in my sig.
post #62841 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

First off, Audyssey does not set XOs, but the AVR does. Audyssey measures the -3 dB point of each speaker in the system, then "reports" it to the AVR which sets an initial XO at a closest preset upper frequency, e.g. if Audyssey determined the -3 dB roll-off at 56 Hz then the AVR will choose 60 Hz. In my Denon the available presets are 40, 60, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 150, 200, 250 Hz.

The typical setting is usually 80 Hz, coz that's the frequency from where below normal healty human ears start to loose directionality clues. For more info see the blog "Small vs. Large" in my sig.[/quote

+1. Just to add for newercomers, the chief technical officer of Audyssey used to post here a lot and mentioned more than once, IIRC, that Audyssey disagrees with some aspects of the manufacturers' crossover setting procedures (most specifically deciding what speakers should have no bass redirected to the sub). He also routinely suggested it was fine to raise the crossovers, but not to lower them (at least without XT532) because you at least theoretically leave some of the mains' range uncorrected in the difficult bass range.
post #62842 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

edit: BTW that post is so well contained it may make a good hyperlink for the awesome FAQ that Kbarnes maintains....i looked there first for it, as I do for every question I have before posting biggrin.gif

 

Agreed. It is in hand.

post #62843 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond Dog View Post

stupid newbie question...

I thought that Audessey was to set all of your X-over points, levels, EQ settings, etc. and does it better than a average or beginner person can do on their own.

I am reading all of these threads of people changing X-Over points, levels, etc.

Is this OK to do as long as you do it "in your reciever settings"? In other words, when you change something like a cross over point in your receiver, does Audessy correct for thgat and adjust everything else automatically to accommodate that?

Audessy set my surrounds at 90 hz this time when before it would always set them at 70.....

 

No stupid questions in this thread, DD - any and all questions are welcome :)

 

First thing to be aware of is that it isn't Audyssey which sets the crossovers - it is the AVR. Audyssey simply reports back to the AVR the frequency at which it detected the response had fallen by 3dB (the F3). The AVR manufacturer then decides what to do with that information and at this stage it is, unfortunately, out of Audyssey's hands. Some AVR manufacturers, for example, will set speakers to 'Large' if Audyssey has reported an F3 below 80Hz. Others won't. So for this reason, it is always recommended to review the XO settings suggested and, usually, to raise them to 80Hz. There are many benefits to doing this and indeed Audyssey themselves have suggested the same.  Changing the XO settings manually does not in any way adversely affect the Audyssey calibration.

 

Here is the full skinny on it, from the FAQ:

 

c)2.   Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?


c)3.   I have big tower speakers at the front. Shouldn't I set these to Large'?


c)4.   Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?

post #62844 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post


Is there anything you have to add, or anything you would like me to try or report back?

Murray, I don't think anyone is doubting that the changes have made things sound better. In my case, I'm simply interested in seeing the measurements that reveal the difference that changing the crossover values makes. Trust your ears, but verify by measuring.

+1 concurred. I too find it amazing that such a small change has made such a big difference, but there is no doubting what Murray is hearing and he has tested it with his 'test passage' from The Town and is very happy with the result. HST, I too would love to see the measurements that reveal the change.

post #62845 of 70896
Quote:
Audessy set my surrounds at 90 hz this time when before it would always set them at 70.....

This is more than likely due to some type of change in your room. Did you move a couch, or large piece of furniture? Or did you run Audyssey differently than you used to? Sometimes it just makes a small change to affect Audyssey's results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Murray, I don't think anyone is doubting that the changes have made things sound better. In my case, I'm simply interested in seeing the measurements that reveal the difference that changing the crossover values makes. Trust your ears, but verify by measuring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

+1 concurred. I too find it amazing that such a small change has made such a big difference, but there is no doubting what Murray is hearing and he has tested it with his 'test passage' from The Town and is very happy with the result. HST, I too would love to see the measurements that reveal the change.

Depending on how the actual "tone" was actually mastered, I wonder the benefit you are finding leaving the XO points lower is due to the fact that the mains and the subs are creating a suckout in their blended area. I would certainly still measure your results and see what changes in the back row as you adjust the XO points.
post #62846 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Depending on how the actual "tone" was actually mastered, I wonder the benefit you are finding leaving the XO points lower is due to the fact that the mains and the subs are creating a suckout in their blended area..

What does this mean, can you explain please?
post #62847 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Depending on how the actual "tone" was actually mastered, I wonder the benefit you are finding leaving the XO points lower is due to the fact that the mains and the subs are creating a suckout in their blended area..

What does this mean, can you explain please?

 

At the XO point (which isn't a brick wall remember, but is on a 'slope') both the mains and the subs will be playing some of the same frequencies at the same time. Unless they are all in phase around that point, then it is possible that there is some cancellation going on. Changing the XOs, and/or changing the location of the speakers and/or subs will affect the frequency response around the XO region. 

 

Look at the difference it made around my own XO region when I moved the L speaker 12 inches to the left, the right speaker 12 inches to the right and one of the subs about 3 feet further along the wall it is on:

 

post #62848 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Quote:
Audessy set my surrounds at 90 hz this time when before it would always set them at 70.....

This is more than likely due to some type of change in your room. Did you move a couch, or large piece of furniture? Or did you run Audyssey differently than you used to? Sometimes it just makes a small change to affect Audyssey's results.

 

Small variations in mic position can also make similar small changes.

post #62849 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

+1 concurred. I too find it amazing that such a small change has made such a big difference, but there is no doubting what Murray is hearing and he has tested it with his 'test passage' from The Town and is very happy with the result. HST, I too would love to see the measurements that reveal the change.
Keith I have more to report on my findings...... I did many more tests last night changing the cross overs and have found the culprit on that one horrid note in the "Town"
Now some may not believe me but the problem is fixed, that very same horrid "tone" is now the same in every row, let me explain.... That "note" was soft and low in the middle row but when I sat in the back row it was loud and would warble and resonate, it was absolutely intolerable!!!

Last night I started to raise the crossovers on different groups of speakers rather than moving all up to 80Hz. Remember I left them were Audyssey found them below.

Front 70Hz
Centre 60Hz
Surround 40Hz
Front wide 70Hz
Front high 40Hz

I started with the front centre moving it up to 80Hz, the "note" was the same. I then moved up the front left & right to 80Hz, the "note" was exactly the same (what the heck I think????)
I raised the wides to 80Hz still no change....
The I started on the front highs raised them from 40Hz up to 80Hz, OMG the "note" started to resonate again, what on earth is going on here I think....I turn them back down to 40Hz and the "note" from the Town is great again. I then try the surrounds moving them from 40Hz up to 80Hz, the "note" is horrid again.... I then move the highs and the surround's up to 80Hz and the "note" is out of control, exactly the shocker Ive been listening to over and over again for the last 1.5 years!!!!

Ok the light bulb is coming on in my head...... Im starting to feel happy as I now know whats causing the problem with the so called horrid "note", frequency in the "Town" and the boom at the back wall, which has now been eliminated completely though the tests. I moved every speaker up to 80Hz except the highs and the surrounds, the sound, the bass, the boom and the "note" is superb in every row, all the three rows sound exactly the same to my ear. The horrid back wall boom has gone forever!

Now my thoughts came down to the speaker design of the surrounds and highs, interesting that they are all the same and not used anywhere else in the cinema. Lets take a look at them and maybe you guys might tell me why is it these four speakers introduce the boom and the horrid frequency in the "Town" when I start to move the crossovers higher than 40/50Hz?

We are dealing with four top of the range Klipsch THX in ceiling THZ KL-7502 speakers. Enclosed design tuned port chamber, feq response 45Hz - 20kHz.
http://www.klipsch.com/kl-7502-thx-in-ceiling-speaker

Is there any possibility that since these are the only speakers in the cinema with a port design that the port creates the problem? Everything else is sealed including the 6 subs. The room also is sealed.

Ok I know we still don't have measurements yet, but at the end of the day after doing hundreds of Audyssey EQ's trying to EQ the "note" and boom out of the room/back row, all along it was four speakers causing the problem.

Every speaker is now set to 80Hz except the four ported ceiling speakers. The sound is magnificent throughout all the three rows, Im over the moon!
And finally the "note" in the back row is hardly heard, its soft and hard to hear, there is no LOUD warbling resonance from it, spectacular!!!

I thank all the guys here especially Keith and Jerry for offering help and ideas. I thank myself too for not giving up. I never thought I would discover this even though I don't understand it, but its fixed. Who cares if the highs and surrounds arnt at 80Hz, I certainly don't, but the rest of the speakers are;)

Guys please chirp in if you know why the ported highs and surrounds don't work well set higher than 40/50Hz, considering they go down to 20Hz.......
post #62850 of 70896

To be honest, Murray, this saga gets more peculiar each day.

 

Let's think about it.  Raising a crossover transfers the reproduction of frequencies below the crossover from the speaker to the array of subs.  So, you are saying that raising the crossover to 80Hz is causing more of the undesirable resonance for the so-called "tone" at the back row, even though it's the subs that are handling the increased load of the change?  This seems counter-intuitive.

 

Unless, and this is going to seem really far-fetched, the so-called "tone" is a very low frequency effect recorded only on the surround channels.  By lowering the crossovers for the surrounds, you are asking the surrounds to handle a very low frequency tone that they are incapable of reproducing, which results in the undesirable tome being suppressed completely (i.e. no longer being reproduced by the subs, and not capable of being reproduced by the surrounds).  That would be weird, no?

 

Regardless, in my opinion, you are using a single note in one movie to tune your entire theater.  So, back to my original (and recurring) recommendation--measure when you get your mic, and adjust things accordingly.  In the meantime, it is nice to see that you are pleased with your sound.

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