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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2099

post #62941 of 70910
Please let me know when you do, Comfy.
The suspense is killing me.
Thank you.
post #62942 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Nick View Post

Please let me know when you do, Comfy.
The suspense is killing me.
Thank you.



My boom is there Nick. There's two plastic bags, one with the tripod and one with the boom.
post #62943 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Nick View Post

And the dumb question of the day goes to...

So striving to be a good Audyssey devotee, I purchased the boom mic stand recommended in the FAQ (which, by the way, has been printed off and reside under my pillow). Here is what I ordered:

http://www.amazon.com/Stage-Stands-MS7701-Tripod-Microphone/dp/B000978D58

What came in the box was the tripod base and the first length of pipe. Straight as an arrow. There was no boom.

Was this an error, or is the boom sold separately. From the looks of the link, it should have shipped with the boom.

So before I embarrass myself with Amazon, I thought I would embarrass myself here.

???

Thank you.

Just Nick

Call them right away, they really have an outstanding customer service. And by the way, their website clearly shows what should be included in the box (yes, the 30" boom is part of the deal):





Chances are they will ship you a replacement at your request.

Cheers!
post #62944 of 70910
I'm just not sure how the Audyssey mic attached to the boom, is there an adapter I need?
post #62945 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm just not sure how the Audyssey mic attached to the boom, is there an adapter I need?

I'm using this with my boom:


http://www.amazon.com/CM01-Camera-Digital-Recorder-Adapter/dp/B001GWCC4I/ref=pd_sim_MI_11
post #62946 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

I'm using this with my boom:


http://www.amazon.com/CM01-Camera-Digital-Recorder-Adapter/dp/B001GWCC4I/ref=pd_sim_MI_11



So that threads onto the boom or slips over it and clamps on? Then the big screw threads into the mic? Live and learn, I thought I had everything I needed.
post #62947 of 70910
At the end of the boom arm is a standard screw thread for a mic holder, which is not the same as that for the camera tripod screw that the Audyssey mic uses. That adapter screws onto the end of the boom arm, and then the little flat part has a standard camera tripod screw thread.
Quote:
Live and learn, I thought I had everything I needed.

This IS covered in the Audyssey 101/FAQ you know wink.gif
post #62948 of 70910
A square cardboard flap, level, and piece of painters tape does wonders when you only ordered the stand wink.gif
post #62949 of 70910
I gotcha and yes now I see it in the F&Q. I just ordered it so I'll have to wait a couple more days. Thanks for the help guys.
post #62950 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
 I seem to recall that EQing in-ceiling speakers can be problematic because their sounds are coming from above and thus aren't tangential to the calibration microphone's input.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Hi Selden, care to expand a bit on what specific problems are supposed to occur?

The FR of the microphone is different for each orientation wrt signal source.

post #62951 of 70910
There's always options.


ACD Systems Digital Imaging
post #62952 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Ceiling speakers are problematic with Audyssey Room EQ and there was plenty of talk about it in this thread years ago. In fact if you put "ceiling" in the Search This Thread function you get 1454 hits.


Must be going back a long way as none of the current guys on the forum ever pointed that out to me in the very same thread.rolleyes.gif
post #62953 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

My boom is there Nick. There's two plastic bags, one with the tripod and one with the boom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Call them right away, they really have an outstanding customer service. And by the way, their website clearly shows what should be included in the box (yes, the 30" boom is part of the deal):





Chances are they will ship you a replacement at your request.

Cheers!

Why is it always me?mad.gif

New one is already on its way.

Good ol' Amazon.

Thanks for the verification.

Just Nick
post #62954 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Lookin good man. I like that dip you have around 1-2khz, I bet that takes a little of the harshness out. The slight slope across the entire bandwidth is nice too something I wish I could recreate in my own theater smile.gif Everyone wants dead flat, and I have dead flat, but alas I prefer a house curve like yours and for no good reason, I can't get that to happen, haha.

Thanks. The setup seems really good now. No harshness, but music sounds great still, the bright bits of a recording still sound bright and detailed. I've pondered cutting the Sonosubs down in half or lower and doing dual opposed ala bossobass type setup, but Im not sure yet. I don't get ANY of the boomy one note bass port noise stuff from these ported enclosures. If I didn't know better I would think they're sealed.
post #62955 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

There's always options.


ACD Systems Digital Imaging



Whatcha got there one of the terminators arms biggrin.gif it is amazing what we will invent to hold a microphone that promises to change sound as we know it. Thanks for the pic smile.gif
post #62956 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Nick View Post


Why is it always me?mad.gif

New one is already on its way.

Good ol' Amazon.

Thanks for the verification.

Just Nick



It's not just you biggrin.gif don't forget the adapter Nick smile.gif
post #62957 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

I seem to recall that EQing in-ceiling speakers can be problematic because their sounds are coming from above and thus aren't tangential to the calibration microphone's input.

Hi Selden, care to expand a bit on what specific problems are supposed to occur?

 

Not Selden, but... the main problem is that the 'grazing angle' of the mic is not what Audyssey expects. As you know, the mic is supposed to be pointed vertically up to the ceiling - but this assumes that the speakers are more or less at ear height. Clearly, when one points the mic up towards the ceiling and ceiling speakers are in use, the grazing angle is vastly different to what Audyssey expects, and this will skew the frequency response of the mic. It could even be similar to pointing the mic directly at a regular speaker, which is something I know you would never do, even under pressure of torture and cruel and unusual punishment :)

 

It isn't very easy to make a recommendation for anyone with ceiling speakers because by definition the mic will be orientated differently towards each speaker, typically. I think we just have to accept that this is a limitation in Audyssey MultEQ, which wasn't designed with ceiling speakers in mind. Perhaps I ought to add this to the FAQ?

post #62958 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Ceiling speakers are problematic with Audyssey Room EQ and there was plenty of talk about it in this thread years ago. In fact if you put "ceiling" in the Search This Thread function you get 1454 hits.


Must be going back a long way as none of the current guys on the forum ever pointed that out to me in the very same thread.rolleyes.gif

 

I should have picked up on this and I apologise for not doing so. I think I need to add a 'ceiling speaker' question to the FAQ.

post #62959 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

Thanks. The setup seems really good now. No harshness, but music sounds great still, the bright bits of a recording still sound bright and detailed. I've pondered cutting the Sonosubs down in half or lower and doing dual opposed ala bossobass type setup, but Im not sure yet. I don't get ANY of the boomy one note bass port noise stuff from these ported enclosures. If I didn't know better I would think they're sealed.

That is pretty much EXACTLY what I did to my old 11hz LLT monsters. They are now "half" sized and Dual opposed 18's. I am actually scooping some additional 24" sonotube in the next few weeks to build out two more, as I just sold the old boxes that the other 4 18's were in. I will be stacking these on the two I have so essentially it will be floor to ceiling drivers, 4 in each tower. :Prettycool:
post #62960 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

It's not just you biggrin.gif don't forget the adapter Nick smile.gif

As the FAQ reside under my pillow (see my prior post), I did not forget the adapter. It's just bad shipping luck. I really can't complain, give the sheer volume of things I buy online, such mishaps are exceedingly rare. My new (and hopefully complete) mic stand will be here Monday.

Just Nick
post #62961 of 70910
Ke
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not Selden, but... the main problem is that the 'grazing angle' of the mic is not what Audyssey expects. As you know, the mic is supposed to be pointed vertically up to the ceiling - but this assumes that the speakers are more or less at ear height. Clearly, when one points the mic up towards the ceiling and ceiling speakers are in use, the grazing angle is vastly different to what Audyssey expects, and this will skew the frequency response of the mic. It could even be similar to pointing the mic directly at a regular speaker, which is something I know you would never do, even under pressure of torture and cruel and unusual punishment smile.gif

It isn't very easy to make a recommendation for anyone with ceiling speakers because by definition the mic will be orientated differently towards each speaker, typically. I think we just have to accept that this is a limitation in Audyssey MultEQ, which wasn't designed with ceiling speakers in mind. Perhaps I ought to add this to the FAQ?
.

Keith - we really do not know what directionality there might be in the mike pickup pattern. If it is truly an omni mike, and likely it is as advertised, then ceiling speakers should not have much effect. An omni mike is not truly omni only from the bottom and related angles down in its lower hemisphere. I think the main reason the mike is to be pointed at the ceiling is so that it can gather direct sound and reflections equally from around the room so Audyssey can do its thing. Other orientations, other than vertical, might attenuate some sound because the mike's lower hemisphere comes into play. But, for now, without measured evidence to the contrary, I would expect the mike's upper hemisphere response to be sufficiently uniform to not cause a major problem with ceiling speakers. In other words, I doubt that there is something special about "grazing" pickup other than it is the best orientation to get all the sounds and reflections in the room, even ceiling reflections. Where the mike might have a problem is with floor reflections, but these are likely damped by carpeting in most rooms, at least at higher frequencies.
post #62962 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Ke
.

Keith - we really do not know what directionality there might be in the mike pickup pattern. If it is truly an omni mike, and likely it is as advertised, then ceiling speakers should not have much effect. An omni mike is not truly omni only from the bottom and related angles down in its lower hemisphere. I think the main reason the mike is to be pointed at the ceiling is so that it can gather direct sound and reflections equally from around the room so Audyssey can do its thing. Other orientations, other than vertical, might attenuate some sound because the mike's lower hemisphere comes into play. But, for now, without measured evidence to the contrary, I would expect the mike's upper hemisphere response to be sufficiently uniform to not cause a major problem with ceiling speakers. In other words, I doubt that there is something special about "grazing" pickup other than it is the best orientation to get all the sounds and reflections in the room, even ceiling reflections. Where the mike might have a problem is with floor reflections, but these are likely damped by carpeting in most rooms, at least at higher frequencies.

I doubt we will ever know how much the grazing angle affects an Audyssey calibration. I don't have ceiling speakers, but my rear surrounds are mounted eight feet high on a back wall that is fairly close to my listening position (6 feet), so I suspect the angle of incidence for these speakers to be approximately 45 degrees. This can't be significantly different from Murray's situation. IMO, we can simply follow the guidelines by placing the mic at the MLP at ear height, point it towards the ceiling, and live with the results. In most cases, the results are pretty darn good.
post #62963 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Ke
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not Selden, but... the main problem is that the 'grazing angle' of the mic is not what Audyssey expects. As you know, the mic is supposed to be pointed vertically up to the ceiling - but this assumes that the speakers are more or less at ear height. Clearly, when one points the mic up towards the ceiling and ceiling speakers are in use, the grazing angle is vastly different to what Audyssey expects, and this will skew the frequency response of the mic. It could even be similar to pointing the mic directly at a regular speaker, which is something I know you would never do, even under pressure of torture and cruel and unusual punishment smile.gif

It isn't very easy to make a recommendation for anyone with ceiling speakers because by definition the mic will be orientated differently towards each speaker, typically. I think we just have to accept that this is a limitation in Audyssey MultEQ, which wasn't designed with ceiling speakers in mind. Perhaps I ought to add this to the FAQ?
.

Keith - we really do not know what directionality there might be in the mike pickup pattern. If it is truly an omni mike, and likely it is as advertised, then ceiling speakers should not have much effect. An omni mike is not truly omni only from the bottom and related angles down in its lower hemisphere. I think the main reason the mike is to be pointed at the ceiling is so that it can gather direct sound and reflections equally from around the room so Audyssey can do its thing. Other orientations, other than vertical, might attenuate some sound because the mike's lower hemisphere comes into play. But, for now, without measured evidence to the contrary, I would expect the mike's upper hemisphere response to be sufficiently uniform to not cause a major problem with ceiling speakers. In other words, I doubt that there is something special about "grazing" pickup other than it is the best orientation to get all the sounds and reflections in the room, even ceiling reflections. Where the mike might have a problem is with floor reflections, but these are likely damped by carpeting in most rooms, at least at higher frequencies.

 

Maybe, Fitz. But...

 

In the good old days, Chris commented that the grazing angle had some significance and was the reason the mic should be pointed to the ceiling.  If it made no real difference which direction the mic was pointed in, then we ought to be able to get a good calibration with a conventional speaker setup by pointing the mic directly towards the speakers. I doubt if many would agree that this was a good idea though ;)  

 

What would you suggest as to the reason why Audyssey struggles so much with ceiling speakers?

post #62964 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Ke
.

Keith - we really do not know what directionality there might be in the mike pickup pattern. If it is truly an omni mike, and likely it is as advertised, then ceiling speakers should not have much effect. An omni mike is not truly omni only from the bottom and related angles down in its lower hemisphere. I think the main reason the mike is to be pointed at the ceiling is so that it can gather direct sound and reflections equally from around the room so Audyssey can do its thing. Other orientations, other than vertical, might attenuate some sound because the mike's lower hemisphere comes into play. But, for now, without measured evidence to the contrary, I would expect the mike's upper hemisphere response to be sufficiently uniform to not cause a major problem with ceiling speakers. In other words, I doubt that there is something special about "grazing" pickup other than it is the best orientation to get all the sounds and reflections in the room, even ceiling reflections. Where the mike might have a problem is with floor reflections, but these are likely damped by carpeting in most rooms, at least at higher frequencies.

I doubt we will ever know how much the grazing angle affects an Audyssey calibration. I don't have ceiling speakers, but my rear surrounds are mounted eight feet high on a back wall that is fairly close to my listening position (6 feet), so I suspect the angle of incidence for these speakers to be approximately 45 degrees. This can't be significantly different from Murray's situation. IMO, we can simply follow the guidelines by placing the mic at the MLP at ear height, point it towards the ceiling, and live with the results. In most cases, the results are pretty darn good.

 

My Height speakers probably present a similar angle to the mic too. But surrounds and height speakers are far less critical than the main speakers and so the impact of calibration on them is likely to be less. Indeed in the REW thread we ignore the surrounds and height speakers totally of course.  In my reply earlier, I should perhaps have made it clear that I wasn't commenting specifically on any one situation, but in general. If the main speakers are mounted in the ceiling, it seems Audyssey struggles to give a good calibration from them. Other than the abomination that are ceiling speakers (IMO) it would seem to me to be the way off-SOP of a grazing angle that is the culprit, but it is only speculation of course. 

post #62965 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

My Height speakers probably present a similar angle to the mic too. But surrounds and height speakers are far less critical than the main speakers and so the impact of calibration on them is likely to be less. Indeed in the REW thread we ignore the surrounds and height speakers totally of course.  In my reply earlier, I should perhaps have made it clear that I wasn't commenting specifically on any one situation, but in general. If the main speakers are mounted in the ceiling, it seems Audyssey struggles to give a good calibration from them. Other than the abomination that are ceiling speakers (IMO) it would seem to me to be the way off-SOP of a grazing angle that is the culprit, but it is only speculation of course. 

As a test from hearing all this (new to me) ceiling speakers/grazing angle stuff I ran Audyssey again with a 35/40deg angle facing to the back wall, which was recommended, it did nothing different in my problem, it was the same. The only thing I noticed was after the EQ the ceiling speakers (surrounds and highs) were set higher, moved from 40Hz to 55Hz, but really that is nothing. Moving them up to 80Hz still brings in the unpleasant resonance. Also I don't think angling the mic in this position is a good thing when you have mixed speakers, ceilings with in walls, the mic positions never corresponds to any of the mix. Also angling the mic to the back wall is off for the surrounds Vs the front highs, the end up with a different grazing angle.

Since the proof was in the pudding, I re did the EQ facing the mic in the recommended position.

Personally I would not change the FAQ on this topic at this point in time, without more proof. Didn't change a thing for me so why bother....
post #62966 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post


Personally I would not change the FAQ on this topic at this point in time, without more proof. Didn't change a thing for me so why bother....

+1. Now try to imagine folks with an 11.x speaker system where speakers are set at anything but seated ear height having a challange of re-adjusting the mic during each and every Audyssey chirp's short time gap per each mic position!!! A good physical excercise, though! smile.gif

Meantime, if you look at the different angles of the popular umm-6 mic you can see there is only a minimal difference at the high end of the audio spectrum where program materials do not have significant contents at all.


Edited by mogorf - 6/28/13 at 2:31pm
post #62967 of 70910
I don't know if this has ever been asked but it is an interesting question....

What if all sorts of different things are going on with peoples ceiling above the position of the mic.

e.g.
Say six mic positions, the ceiling above is pretty flat and normal, but the other three best positions that need to be done have strange things going on, ceiling height is different, sloping ceiling, light fittings, bass traps etc etc etc...

Im sure some things could influence the EQ results, especially if there was a lot of sound insulation like traps, the ceiling reflection from the mic would be very different. Also if one had multiple risers for their seating, the different ceiling height for the mic must also change the reflections of the sound....

Don't know just throwing a spanner in the works, surly Audyssey behaves differently under different environments.
post #62968 of 70910
Quote:
What if all sorts of different things are going on with peoples ceiling above the position of the mic.

HEY - you're making me worry now - I have a ceiling fan right above the theoretical " sweet spot " ! eek.gif
post #62969 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

HEY - you're making me worry now - I have a ceiling fan right above the theoretical " sweet spot " ! eek.gif

The good news is Audyssey is engineered to optimize not a "sweet spot" but a "sweet area".
post #62970 of 70910
3 ceiling fans & a portable AC unit in my room. Sometimes I have to cut the Air Off to run A.
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