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post #63571 of 70896
Out of curiosity, has it been contemplated that maybe the high khz and bit rate releases are actually better recorded and remastered and if that is the case they may very well sound better than the "regular" ones?
post #63572 of 70896
^^ A couple of comments:

I read the specs on your speakers, and they are high sensitivity. Others, particularly Klipsch owners, have reported similar results in which the speaker trims are maxed out in the negative direction. As you probably have read, if the trims are maxed out, there is no way of knowing if Audyssey would have set the trims even lower if it could have. In other words, the calibration is suspect. Attenuators is a way to easily address the situation.

The next time you try and calibrate, I would lower the sub gain by one click to see if you can get the final trim values higher than -12. Nothing wrong with a starting point lower than 75dB.

You should never lower crossover settings established by Audyssey. Audyssey measures the point where your speaker's response is -3dB, and that is what determines the crossover. The Audyssey filters only extend down to the F3 point. By lowering the crossover to 80Hz, you have a 40Hz "gap" with no correction, which is not desirable. There is nothing wrong with a 120Hz crossover. After all, the speakers are rated +/- 3dB only to 80Hz. The different crossovers for the center and surrounds are probably caused by specific audio characteristics in your room. Again, nothing to worry about--leave the crossovers alone.

You have some nice equipment. Stick with it, and I'm sure you will get an Audyssey calibration to your liking. And try and stay cool in this heat!
post #63573 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

^^ A couple of comments:

I read the specs on your speakers, and they are high sensitivity. Others, particularly Klipsch owners, have reported similar results in which the speaker trims are maxed out in the negative direction. As you probably have read, if the trims are maxed out, there is no way of knowing if Audyssey would have set the trims even lower if it could have. In other words, the calibration is suspect. Attenuators is a way to easily address the situation.

The next time you try and calibrate, I would lower the sub gain by one click to see if you can get the final trim values higher than -12. Nothing wrong with a starting point lower than 75dB.

You should never lower crossover settings established by Audyssey. Audyssey measures the point where your speaker's response is -3dB, and that is what determines the crossover. The Audyssey filters only extend down to the F3 point. By lowering the crossover to 80Hz, you have a 40Hz "gap" with no correction, which is not desirable. There is nothing wrong with a 120Hz crossover. After all, the speakers are rated +/- 3dB only to 80Hz. The different crossovers for the center and surrounds are probably caused by specific audio characteristics in your room. Again, nothing to worry about--leave the crossovers alone.

You have some nice equipment. Stick with it, and I'm sure you will get an Audyssey calibration to your liking. And try and stay cool in this heat!

Great advice Jerry...thanks so much. Even though I know my surrounds are +/- 3dB from 80Hz too with only a single 8"coax and compression driver, I should leave those at 60Hz and not raise to 80?(if they are still 60 on a rerun)

here is my before and after graph btw...with OmniMic

Oppo 105 decoding sending analog out..no EQ...just room treatments.


Oppo bitstreaming to Marantz and first Audyssey run
post #63574 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

Out of curiosity, has it been contemplated that maybe the high khz and bit rate releases are actually better recorded and remastered and if that is the case they may very well sound better than the "regular" ones?



FWIW I thought of that, and I assume others have also. To me it all comes down to the recording and mastering. Which may be why many classic rock albums still sound good by today's standards. I also think high res as far as SACD's go may sound better to some because many are multi channel. That said I hear zero difference between high res stereo downloads and a standard red book CD, YMMV.
Edited by comfynumb - 7/11/13 at 9:46pm
post #63575 of 70896
Double post
Edited by comfynumb - 7/11/13 at 9:31pm
post #63576 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinH View Post


Great advice Jerry...thanks so much. Even though I know my surrounds are +/- 3dB from 80Hz too with only a single 8"coax and compression driver, I should leave those at 60Hz and not raise to 80?(if they are still 60 on a rerun)

 

 

Nothing wrong with raising crossovers, it's perfectly normal.

 

While it is difficult to make any real conclusions based on the fact that the calibration is suspect, the post-Audyssey curve shows that some correction is being applied.  That hump at 10KHz to 13KHz is peculiar.

post #63577 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

@Morg81:  What mic are you using to take measurements?  I think your noise floor (70dB) is too high on your waterfall plots.  I would prefer to see what's going on down to 40 or 50dB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

^ That is correct, a lower limit of 70dB does not produce a waterfall graph that represents the true nature of bass decay in the listening room.  If you know how, please take a reading in your room when it is quiet, observe the noise floor, and publish new waterfalls with the correct value for the lower limit.  I would expect somewhere in the range of 40-50dB as your noise floor reading, depending on the sensitivity of your measurement equipment.

Hi,

As stated in my posts I'm using a Behringer ECM8000 (not calibrated, I'm using a general calibrated file for ECM8000) and a M-Audio Fast Track USB soundcard. I did calibrated the soundcard by using the "loop method".

I will not be able to do the measuring again as I am selling the Antimode tomorrow. I have a wife and a 13 months baby, and live in an appartement in town center, so finding a quiet moment with very low noise floor is quite an impossible mission! Sorry if my measures are not what you need/expect, but you'll have to do them yourselve if you need some more smile.gif
post #63578 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

IME, different types of subs, in different areas of the room make it even that much more difficult too. If I were to suggest anything, I would say add an additional sub if the exact same model, if you have the ability.

Agreed.  

post #63579 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Yes, those are useful locations (and Audyssey friendly) if you have a single row of seats. BTW, 1/4 and 3/4 points of room width can be on the front wall or back wall or anywhere inbetween.

Hi, Sanjay

Regarding 1/4 & 3/4 points of room width can be anywhere in-between the front wall & back wall, does it apply to ported and/or sealed subwoofer? Reason for asking is because my 2 subwoofers are rear ported.

Thanks.
post #63580 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morg81 View Post


Hi,

As stated in my posts I'm using a Behringer ECM8000 (not calibrated, I'm using a general calibrated file for ECM8000) and a M-Audio Fast Track USB soundcard. I did calibrated the soundcard by using the "loop method".

I will not be able to do the measuring again as I am selling the Antimode tomorrow. I have a wife and a 13 months baby, and live in an appartement in town center, so finding a quiet moment with very low noise floor is quite an impossible mission! Sorry if my measures are not what you need/expect, but you'll have to do them yourselve if you need some more smile.gif

No need to take new measurements. You can take the existing measurements, adjust the graph scale as per the recommendation, and post the updated versions.
post #63581 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

^^ A couple of comments:

I read the specs on your speakers, and they are high sensitivity. Others, particularly Klipsch owners, have reported similar results in which the speaker trims are maxed out in the negative direction. As you probably have read, if the trims are maxed out, there is no way of knowing if Audyssey would have set the trims even lower if it could have. In other words, the calibration is suspect. Attenuators is a way to easily address the situation.

The next time you try and calibrate, I would lower the sub gain by one click to see if you can get the final trim values higher than -12. Nothing wrong with a starting point lower than 75dB.

You should never lower crossover settings established by Audyssey. Audyssey measures the point where your speaker's response is -3dB, and that is what determines the crossover. The Audyssey filters only extend down to the F3 point. By lowering the crossover to 80Hz, you have a 40Hz "gap" with no correction, which is not desirable. There is nothing wrong with a 120Hz crossover. After all, the speakers are rated +/- 3dB only to 80Hz. The different crossovers for the center and surrounds are probably caused by specific audio characteristics in your room. Again, nothing to worry about--leave the crossovers alone.

You have some nice equipment. Stick with it, and I'm sure you will get an Audyssey calibration to your liking. And try and stay cool in this heat!

Some additional room treatments might help as well, where you will get additional attenuation with some properly placed panels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Nothing wrong with raising crossovers, it's perfectly normal.

While it is difficult to make any real conclusions based on the fact that the calibration is suspect, the post-Audyssey curve shows that some correction is being applied.  That hump at 10KHz to 13KHz is peculiar.

Agreed, especially since it was not there before. Did you reposition the speakers between the two measurements? I might suggest doing another sweep with perhaps 1/12 or 1/24 resolution to see if it is a particularly destructive peak that is causing that hump.
post #63582 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post

Regarding 1/4 & 3/4 points of room width can be anywhere in-between the front wall & back wall, does it apply to ported and/or sealed subwoofer?
Applies to all types of subwoofers and speakers. The idea is to place your sources of bass at locations of bass nulls in the room.
post #63583 of 70896
Is there much of a point to experimenting with speaker placement and room treatments without the benefit of REW?

I have now made it through the Harmon Paper (thank you Jerry) , and one of the things the author stresses is checking and double checking the effects of changes with appropriate measurement methods. This is just good old "scientific method." Though I have begun reading up on REW, I am so not there yet. Heck, I am just getting truly comfortable with accurate Audyssey runs. And I have a nasty hum thanks to my new ext amp (Having just entered the 9.1 DSX realm) that is only temporarily being dealt with by a cheater plug. To be honest with myself, getting my head around REW, and then up and running, is something for the fall or winter.

Like many of the others here, I have not been blessed with The Golden Ear. Experimenting with different placements and treatments, without the ability to see the accompanying graphs, strikes me as a descent into madness.

What is your advice? Thank you much.

Just Nick
post #63584 of 70896

^

Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

biggrin.gif
 

post #63585 of 70896
I know what you're thinking, 'cause right now I'm thinking the same thing. Actually, I've been thinking it ever since I got here: Why oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill?
post #63586 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Nick View Post

Is there much of a point to experimenting with speaker placement and room treatments without the benefit of REW?


Just Nick

Yes, there is. You make a change and listen to it. If you like it better, you keep it. If you do not, you change it back. Remember, this is all about making it sound better to YOU, not to a piece of paper or graph. If you like it better, then it IS better for you. Liking something is a personal preference. Graphs and Charts are great tools to get you to a point where you will most likely be very happy. However, if you personally like a boomy bass, then purposefully reducing your happiness (by reducing the bass) just to match a graph or chart look better is stupid.

To recap, the use of charts and graphs are great to give you a solid starting point. This point may also be your ending point, but it might not. You can certainly improve your sound enjoyment without them, it is just harder.
post #63587 of 70896
Blue pill and happy since upgrading to xt32 here:D
post #63588 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Applies to all types of subwoofers and speakers. The idea is to place your sources of bass at locations of bass nulls in the room.

Hi, Sanjay

I moved my 2 subs to the 1/4 & 3/4 points of room width, in front of the TV bench (indicated by the 2 small red dots in the attached pic & photo).

Then I did Audyssey calibrations 3 times. Every time, the Audyssey mic was accurate in the speaker distances.

As the subs were moved to the front instead of at sidewalls' mid-point originally (2.4m), the distances measured by the mic were further (3m, correct).

What I don't understand is this: At sidewalls' mid-point, to achieve 75db individually, each sub's vol knob was between 10 & 11 o'clock, and the combined vol resulted in -4.5 calibrated sub vol setting. Now at 1/4 & 3/4 room width points in front (further from MLP), to achieve 75db individually, I had to turn down each sub's vol knob to 9 o'clock (which is lower than before), And the combined vol also resulted in -4.5 calibrated sub vol setting. If i didnt turn down each sub's vol knob, the calibrated sub vol setting would be -11. Why is it that the subs are now further from MLP but yet in order to achieve 75db individually, I had to turn down each sub's vol knob? Could it be because at sidewall's mid-point, the subs were firing "sideways" & not directly at MLP, while at 1/4 & 3/4 room width points in front (though further), the subs are firing directly at MLP?

Subjectively, after moving the subs & listening to a few movie scenes, I feel that the bass is flatter (this is just purely based on my ears).

Thanks.




Edited by Ethan Ong - 7/13/13 at 1:37am
post #63589 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post

Why is it that the subs are now further from MLP but yet in order to achieve 75db individually, I had to turn down each sub's vol knob?
Since you are no longer sitting in a bass null at the centre line of the room (you cancelled it with sub placement), you don't have to turn up your subs as much as before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post

Subjectively, after moving the subs & listening to a few movie scenes, I feel that the bass is flatter (this is just purely based on my ears).
Flatter bass often sounds like less bass, so don't hesitate to raise the bass level so that it sounds right to you subjectively.
post #63590 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Since you are no longer sitting in a bass null at the centre line of the room (you cancelled it with sub placement), you don't have to turn up your subs as much as before.
Flatter bass often sounds like less bass, so don't hesitate to raise the bass level so that it sounds right to you subjectively.

Thanks Sanjay for your explanation.

And Thanks for your kind patience, putting up with my questions for a "novice" guy. :-)
post #63591 of 70896
Hi All (And especially Sanjay):

I have been reading Sanjay's posts regarding speaker placement with great interest. My initial choice for placement of my 2 subs was in diagonal corners of my HT. The Harman Paper seems to indicate that this is a good placement, saying "if it is good for a particular room, then leave it alone and move on to the next problem." I do not recall reading much in this thread regarding corner placements, and I was wondering what your thoughts were. Corner placement and Audyssey xt32 sounds good to me, but keep in mind my lack of The Golden Ear.

Should I disable Audyssey and see how that sounds, in order to determine how much is decent placement versus correction?

Thank you.

Just Nick
post #63592 of 70896

^Sure, Nick, why not A/B with and without Audyssey?  That test takes little time or effort and is kinda fun and interesting (at least that's the sort of thing the guys around here seem to find fun and interesting).  wink.gif

 

As you have an untreated room, let's assume the no Audyssey (NA) condition  will indeed sound different than with Audyssey (A).  Lots of folks, when first engaging Audyssey have a subjective experience of "losing the bass."   This is because some room peaks have been tamed.  Once they get used to flatter bass, when they turn off Audyssey, the bass  sounds boomier- or to the more discerning ear, uneven.  That is exactly what happens in my room.  Not only is the NA  bass  boomy, all that xs bass muddles things all the way up the freq range. The A bass is tighter and punchier and seems to open up the rest of the spectrum nicely.

 

To get a bit more objective and precise view absent a good measuring system, you can use some low freq test sweeps (20-200 or so) and a SPL meter.  I've done this and in my room the SPL starts quite low, even when I can hear very  low freq rumbles around 20 or 30Hz.  Then I see and hear an increase in SPL.  But with NA it's quite erratic, the needle bouncing up and down as the sweep progresses.  With A it  varies much less.  With or without a meter, if you pay close attention to the sound you'll hear it diminish in volume at certain pitches and increase at others.  If you want to further "develop your ear", put on some good musical test material (certain acoustic bass jazz music, for ex.) and listen to what happens to the notes A vs NA.  But that's a fairly challenging task because of the vagaries of which notes are played and how evenly they're played.

 

As to your last question, the issue to me is, are there significantly better practical alternative placements.  The best answer is a sub crawl with a proper measuring system. But there lies the rabbit hole!


Edited by SoundofMind - 7/13/13 at 5:18am
post #63593 of 70896
Thanks, SOM.
So as not to clog the thread with really basic discussions, can you or someone point me to a prior thread or link that discusses the nuts and bolts of low freq test sweeps?

And just as a friendly reminder, you really should proofread better before you post. And BTW, what does any of this have to do with pub crawls? I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm all in favor of celebrating a well-configured room and all, but shouldn't we be keeping our focus on the task at hand???

biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Seriously though, pointing me in the direction of how to conduct a proper sub crawl would be greatly appreciated as well. I have no experience with either of these procedures, but I am interested in learning how to do them well.

Thanks again SOM!

Just Nick
post #63594 of 70896
post #63595 of 70896

You can also download and use the RealTraps test CD.  The download location, which includes instructions, is here:  http://realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

 

While free (you only need an SPL meter), it is quite time-consuming to repeat the tests as you are moving the sub around.  A better solution would be to develop skills using REW.  You can find a beginner's guide linked in my signature, and a discussion in this thread:  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/0_20.

post #63596 of 70896

^+1  Jerry is suggesting a much better, more scientific and proven  approach.  Even though my measuring systems are limited by 1/6 or so smoothing which basically disaalows fine tuning, they were helpful in a "quickndirty" sub crawl placement.  I measured in MLP while moving the subs around.  I would never attempt it either by ear or even manually with a SPL meter if getting deep into proper placement and smoothest response. 

post #63597 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Nick View Post

My initial choice for placement of my 2 subs was in diagonal corners of my HT. The Harman Paper seems to indicate that this is a good placement, saying "if it is good for a particular room, then leave it alone and move on to the next problem."
Where in the paper does it indicate that 2 subs in diagonal corners is good placement?
post #63598 of 70896
Hi everyone,

I'm new to Audyssey and have spent the last couple of days reading through parts of this thread as well as the Audyssey FAQ and Setup guide and also some posts on Audyssey's blog by Chris.

After doing all that, I am still confused as to how I need to setup my system to best work with Audyssey. My questions revolves around the "small vs large" speaker issue which has probably been beaten to death on this thread and if so I apologize for dreading it up again.

I currently have a pair of Wisdom Audio Adrenaline M50s as my front speakers. This consists of a 4' line source + a 12" sub on each speaker. I also have some in-ceiling rear surrounds and a Velodyne 10" Impact-10 sub.

My front speakers are connected via Front L/R pre-outs from my Marantz SR7007 AVR to an active crossover device (that comes with the Wisdom speakers). From there the high frequency and low frequency signals are both amplified and then feed the speakers.

My AVR is directly powering my rear surrounds.

My dedicated Velodyne sub is connected via the SW1 output on my AVR.

Now when I run Audyssey in this 4.1 setup, my AVR detects the front speakers as "Large" because they are full range. Now if I understand it correctly, the general consensus with regards to an Audyssey setup seems to be to set all speakers to small so as to benefit from the higher filter resolution for the subwoofer channel and to also increase the headroom for the AVR by not having it try to push full range to other speakers.

Regarding this, I have a few questions:

  1. If my Velodyne 10" sub is nowhere as capable as the 12" subs on my front speakers, do I really want to have Audyssey see my front speakers as Small and then pass all LFE to the Velodyne? I say this because looking at the specifications of the LFE speaker on my WIsdoms, it seems they are much more capable than the Velodyne. Specs here: Wisdom Audio Adrenaline M50 Specs
  2. Should I even keep the Velodyne 10" sub in the setup or switch simply to a 4.0 setup instead?
  3. Is there any headroom benefit to be gained versus my current setup? Isn't my AVR already free from the front L/R headroom since I am using pre-out connections?
  4. Because my front wisdom speakers are connected via a crossover is there a way to have my setup so that I can still benefit from the increased filter resolution for the subwoofer channel in Audyssey?

Here is a flowchart showing my setup:



and here is an image of the speakers:



Would really appreciate any help anyone can provide as to how to get an optimal setup here.

Thank you!
post #63599 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post

Thanks Sanjay for your explanation.
You're welcome. Pretty easy to understand when you think of it as high pressure (your subs) combining with low pressure (room nulls) to average out and give you more equal pressure (flatter response) across the room.
post #63600 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehan View Post

  1. If my Velodyne 10" sub is nowhere as capable as the 12" subs on my front speakers, do I really want to have Audyssey see my front speakers as Small and then pass all LFE to the Velodyne? I say this because looking at the specifications of the LFE speaker on my WIsdoms, it seems they are much more capable than the Velodyne. Specs here: Wisdom Audio Adrenaline M50 Specs
  2. Should I even keep the Velodyne 10" sub in the setup or switch simply to a 4.0 setup instead?
  3. Is there any headroom benefit to be gained versus my current setup? Isn't my AVR already free from the front L/R headroom since I am using pre-out connections?
  4. Because my front wisdom speakers are connected via a crossover is there a way to have my setup so that I can still benefit from the increased filter resolution for the subwoofer channel in Audyssey?

1. Whether you set your speakers to small, or leave them as large, depends on the bass performance in your listening room. The main speakers are placed in the room for best stereo imaging. Subwoofers are placed in the room to provide smoothest response. In most rooms, it is unusual that the same placement would produce both the best imaging, and the smoothest bass. Being able to separate these two objectives by having one or more capable subwoofers, and letting them handle the bass by setting the mains to small, is an approach that is highly recommended.

Having said that, in your particular case, you should measure bass performance with the mains set to large. If it is acceptable to you, there is nothing wrong with leaving things as they are.

2. Depends. Again, everything hinges on your ability to measure bass response with, and without, the sub.

3. I doubt that headroom plays a significant factor in your decision.

4. Not that I am aware of.

Very nice speakers, by the way!
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