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post #64381 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Here is Ryman Auditorium. Nothing but hard, smooth surfaces and some of the best acoustics in the U.S.

LOL, good point. So all hope is not lost for my apartment ;-)
post #64382 of 70896
Okay, Tombeck... First: GET A RUG! I can't stress this enough. Wood floors are aesthetically great, but for audio purposes, eh... not so much. I just moved into a new house and while the wood flooring is beautiful, the first thing I did was go buy an area rug before I even set up my speakers. Good thick curtains could help you on the left side, but the right side is a challenge. Either way, curtains couldn't hurt and would at least help with those glass surfaces.

Second, try pulling your speakers in away from the side walls a bit. You can keep a bit of toe-in, but judge it less on aiming toward your main listening position and more on where side-wall reflections will be. You should have a wide enough dispersion pattern that you don't have to aim them directly at the main listening position (and side-wall reflections are likely more harmful in your particular setup than off-axis response).

Third, if that wood floor is floating and not wood on concrete, consider isolation platforms. Auralex makes some fairly reasonable platforms that can decouple them from the floor. This is totally optional, but if your floors have any give to them, they may tend to act like a giant passive radiator. The first two suggestions, however, should take far more precedence.
post #64383 of 70896
Re tombeck

In that case set RLO to the highest positive number for music
post #64384 of 70896
I agree with Jeremy, maybe it's just the pictures but those speakers are right against the walls? Move them out 12-18 inches. It makes a big difference. My RF-7s are actually toe'd into the corners, about 12 inches out. I think they sound fine but probably would be better if they shot into a flat wall, sadly I have no other options.

----

I just finished my final Audyssey calibration with the new sub placement and settings. Think this is the one! I got the same sound as before, but much more punch and bass with virtual no boomy effect. Could not live without Audyssey XT32, sad part is now every receiver I get will need it or I won't be happy... and they tend to only be on flagship/expensive receivers. tongue.gif

Just going to make my switch to 4K in a few years that much harder...
Edited by Tyrindor - 8/28/13 at 3:03pm
post #64385 of 70896
Tyrindor, by then it'll be xt64, don't worry biggrin.gif Haha! Actually the Denonx4000 is a great "budget" option with 32.

Mr. Beck,

Excellent suggestions by everyone so far. The windows, floor and even the couch (looks quite reflective leather) are all going to brighten the sound some. RUG, Curtains, maybe a throw blanket behind your head and you have a good start. If treatments become an option, there are aesthetic ways of going about it, like screen printed panels that look just like pictures/paintings biggrin.gif You can customize them to your heart's (wife's) content!!!!!
post #64386 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

Okay, Tombeck... First: GET A RUG! I can't stress this enough. Wood floors are aesthetically great, but for audio purposes, eh... not so much. I just moved into a new house and while the wood flooring is beautiful, the first thing I did was go buy an area rug before I even set up my speakers. Good thick curtains could help you on the left side, but the right side is a challenge. Either way, curtains couldn't hurt and would at least help with those glass surfaces.

Hi Jeremy, thanks for your suggestions. I am considering a rug, and I don't even think the floor looks that great anymore ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

Second, try pulling your speakers in away from the side walls a bit. You can keep a bit of toe-in, but judge it less on aiming toward your main listening position and more on where side-wall reflections will be. You should have a wide enough dispersion pattern that you don't have to aim them directly at the main listening position (and side-wall reflections are likely more harmful in your particular setup than off-axis response).

Thanks, will try that. They're 40cm away from the side walls, I thought that would be enough. I deliberately pointed them at the listening position because not doing so is said to be a possible source for bright highs with Audyssey, so I never tried to change that aspect. I will try it this weekend though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

Third, if that wood floor is floating and not wood on concrete, consider isolation platforms. Auralex makes some fairly reasonable platforms that can decouple them from the floor. This is totally optional, but if your floors have any give to them, they may tend to act like a giant passive radiator. The first two suggestions, however, should take far more precedence.

I can't really change the floor, this is a rented apartment. I already had the wall reinforced for the heavy, hanging furniture and ended up getting a lawyer involved, so if I now try to modify the floor I risk losing my apartment ;-)

Last post for tonight, it's after midnight here. Thanks again for all your help!
post #64387 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Tyrindor, by then it'll be xt64, don't worry biggrin.gif Haha! Actually the Denonx4000 is a great "budget" option with 32.

Mr. Beck,

Excellent suggestions by everyone so far. The windows, floor and even the couch (looks quite reflective leather) are all going to brighten the sound some. RUG, Curtains, maybe a throw blanket behind your head and you have a good start. If treatments become an option, there are aesthetic ways of going about it, like screen printed panels that look just like pictures/paintings biggrin.gif You can customize them to your heart's (wife's) content!!!!!

Wife? haha, I wish ;-) Yes, it's very reflective leather. I'll definitely start looking for aesthetically pleasing room acoustic treatment, haven't started looking yet. I thought about some stuff for the ceiling. I don't have any walls for picture-like treatment. Windows on the left, kitchen on the right, wooden sliding door behind. So it's really the floor and the ceiling that can be treated, plus curtains of course. I think that will make a huge difference.

good night smile.gif
post #64388 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombeck View Post

Lots of hard, smooth surfaces, almost nothing that absorbs sound.

If you think that table looks ugly, that's going away in a few weeks. I might add a curtain or a carpet if it helps with the sound, I haven't decided yet. And yes, a hi-fi rack is coming too, so the Marantz will not have to sit on the floor much longer. ;-)



Hey Tom,

Thanks for the pictures, I tried to stitch your two pix into a panorama pic, but PhotoShop had a hard time trying to align them, probably due to your changed positions while taking the shots. OK, that's not so important, after all this is not a photography forum, eh?! smile.gif So, here's the best (or worst!) I could do for a manual stitch:



But,

- I don't see a center speaker
- I don't see a sub or subs
- I do see an off-center display giving me goose bumps, so it's up to you to find the solution for a symmetric layout smile.gif

All in all, try to do a so-called "cold-setup" with all the above taken into consideration + all what other members already suggested,...and then do another Audyssey calibration in accordance with everything written in the Audyssey FAQ.

Wish you good luck, you've got all the potential in your room to arrive to an ear pleasing result! Come back with your solutions, please! smile.gif
Edited by mogorf - 8/28/13 at 3:44pm
post #64389 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Tyrindor, by then it'll be xt64, don't worry biggrin.gif Haha! Actually the Denonx4000 is a great "budget" option with 32.

Mr. Beck,

Excellent suggestions by everyone so far. The windows, floor and even the couch (looks quite reflective leather) are all going to brighten the sound some. RUG, Curtains, maybe a throw blanket behind your head and you have a good start. If treatments become an option, there are aesthetic ways of going about it, like screen printed panels that look just like pictures/paintings biggrin.gif You can customize them to your heart's (wife's) content!!!!!

Throw blanket behind the head? hmmm now you've got me thinking my wife's spot on the couch could be acoustically superior to my own biggrin.gif
post #64390 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombeck View Post

Wife? haha, I wish ;-) Yes, it's very reflective leather. I'll definitely start looking for aesthetically pleasing room acoustic treatment, haven't started looking yet. I thought about some stuff for the ceiling. I don't have any walls for picture-like treatment. Windows on the left, kitchen on the right, wooden sliding door behind. So it's really the floor and the ceiling that can be treated, plus curtains of course. I think that will make a huge difference.

good night smile.gif

Morning! Haha... Treatments behind your speakers can help as well, but let's tackle the other options before we look to that smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Throw blanket behind the head? hmmm now you've got me thinking my wife's spot on the couch could be acoustically superior to my own biggrin.gif

It works, especially on very reflective couches such as TB has. You would be very surprised at the reflections that are literally bouncing off the couch and assaulting your eardrums with nasties. I have a micro-suede and the difference was quite subtle but a nice tight leather seating is going to cause some reflections and within a few inches from your ears!!!!
post #64391 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post


Here is Ryman Auditorium. Nothing but hard, smooth surfaces and some of the best acoustics in the U.S.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tombeck View Post


LOL, good point. So all hope is not lost for my apartment ;-)

Not a good point.  The acoustical properties of a good room/auditorium for the creation of music are different from those where it is to be reproduced.  Your listening room should be able to recreate the illusion of any performance site, not just that one.  

post #64392 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by tombeck View Post

I can't really change the floor, this is a rented apartment. I already had the wall reinforced for the heavy, hanging furniture and ended up getting a lawyer involved, so if I now try to modify the floor I risk losing my apartment ;-)
You misunderstand. Isolation platforms don't modify your floor. They just sit under your speakers. It's basically a wood platform on top of dense foam that keeps the vibration from the speaker from transferring to the floor as much. Auralex has some that you can look at here: http://www.auralex.com/c_sound_isolation/c_sound_isolation.asp

Again, you would only hear a difference if your floor is very active and flexes. If it's wood paneling on concrete, not so much... but if you're on a second floor or on suspended wood floor, isolation can help. Most towers will come with some kind of isolation. My towers have rubber feet that slide on over the speaker spikes to do just that. If yours came with something like that and you aren't using them, I recommend using them. Alternately, if your towers accept standard screw-in speaker spikes, you can likely find some feet for it that will help if you don't want to do something like Auralex platforms.
post #64393 of 70896
I do this with the Auralex to good effect.
post #64394 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hey Tom,

Thanks for the pictures, I tried to stitch your two pix into a panorama pic, but PhotoShop had a hard time trying to align them, probably due to your changed positions while taking the shots. OK, that's not so important, after all this is not a photography forum, eh?! smile.gif So, here's the best (or worst!) I could do for a manual stitch:



But,

- I don't see a center speaker
- I don't see a sub or subs
- I do see an off-center display giving me goose bumps, so it's up to you to find the solution for a symmetric layout smile.gif

All in all, try to do a so-called "cold-setup" with all the above taken into consideration + all what other members already suggested,...and then do another Audyssey calibration in accordance with everything written in the Audyssey FAQ.

Wish you good luck, you've got all the potential in your room to arrive to an ear pleasing result! Come back with your solutions, please! smile.gif

Good work on the panorama picture smile.gif I could have shot a panorama pic, but I didn't think of doing so. If you want, you can take a look at the other renderings of my apartment here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/so4g1xwv304bt96/gkKbIor-K3
So there is a center channel, and there is a subwoofer ;-) Right now it's on the right side though, not the left as on the renderings.
I know, they're both not optimally placed, but believe me when I say I am extremely happy with the sound in movies, it's so much better than everything I could wish for in this 24m^2 room. I'm usually also very happy with the sound of music, it just irks me that if I want to listen louder, I have to turn off Audyssey which seems counter-intuitive.
About the off-center tv / seating position: I'm afraid that's going to stay like this for the next 10 or 20 years ;-) honestly, it doesn't bother me. I'm sitting in front of the TV and concentrate on the picture, not the furniture. Audyssey takes care that all speakers sound equally loud where I sit (though it doesn't do that perfectly).
I'll play more with my settings, speaker placement and calibration over the weekend, unless I have to work.
thanks again for your suggestions.
kind regards, thomas
post #64395 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

It works, especially on very reflective couches such as TB has. You would be very surprised at the reflections that are literally bouncing off the couch and assaulting your eardrums with nasties. I have a micro-suede and the difference was quite subtle but a nice tight leather seating is going to cause some reflections and within a few inches from your ears!!!!

Actually I do already have a blanket on the couch, also over the back rest where I sit, albeit to protect the leather, not to improve the sound, but if it also improves the sound, all the better :-)
post #64396 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

You misunderstand. Isolation platforms don't modify your floor. They just sit under your speakers. It's basically a wood platform on top of dense foam that keeps the vibration from the speaker from transferring to the floor as much. Auralex has some that you can look at here: http://www.auralex.com/c_sound_isolation/c_sound_isolation.asp

Again, you would only hear a difference if your floor is very active and flexes. If it's wood paneling on concrete, not so much... but if you're on a second floor or on suspended wood floor, isolation can help. Most towers will come with some kind of isolation. My towers have rubber feet that slide on over the speaker spikes to do just that. If yours came with something like that and you aren't using them, I recommend using them. Alternately, if your towers accept standard screw-in speaker spikes, you can likely find some feet for it that will help if you don't want to do something like Auralex platforms.

I'm sorry I misunderstood. My B&W came with screw-in rubber feet that one can use instead of the spikes, and I've always been using them. Not sure if insulation will still make a difference then. I'm afraid I don't know how the floor was constructed - I'd guess paneling on concrete, but that guess is pretty worthless ;-)

sorry for all the single posts, typing this on a tablet during my commute, it's a pain already as-is without trying to combine all replies into one post ;-)
post #64397 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Tyrindor,

My understanding, from reading the FAQ at "Ask Audyssey", is that the DynEQ response curves take into account the trim levels set by Audyssey's calibration. If you manually change those trim levels, DynEQ's adjustments won't be as accurate.
 

 

This is correct, Selden. Audyssey 'knows' if the trim has been changed, so it can make allowances for it wrt to DEQ. It's also a reason to boost the bass in the trims rather than at the sub itself if one wishes to run the bass a little hot.

post #64398 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Even if the acoustics suck, at least it's a really good looking room cool.gif

That said, if it was ME the off-center TV would drive me nuts. I require symmetry and normal angles. I'm the guy who adjusts crooked pictures at other people's houses when they are in the bathroom biggrin.gifeek.gif

 

OMG. I thought that was just me! :)

post #64399 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

OMG. I thought that was just me! smile.gif

one of you should change your handle to "Monk" smile.gif
post #64400 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

This is correct, Selden. Audyssey 'knows' if the trim has been changed, so it can make allowances for it wrt to DEQ. It's also a reason to boost the bass in the trims rather than at the sub itself if one wishes to run the bass a little hot.

I thought this was discussed a long time ago and found not to be the case.  I don't see how DEQ can compensate if I change trim levels.  If it did the trim would have no net affect.  For instance, I turn the sub level down using the trim, DEQ does not see that and determine it needs to boost more.  It just does its thing.  Same for surround levels...I feel there is too much boost so I trim them all down 2db and DEQ does not try to change that.

 

So what do you mean by "allowances"?


Edited by primetimeguy - 8/29/13 at 2:32pm
post #64401 of 70896
+1

This had come up a few times and it actually is not true. DEQ has the ability to "track" channel level changes but receiver mfgrs have never implemented it. That is why there are conflicting posts from Chris. He later disavowed that statement after checking and discovering it was never implemented.

If I wasn't on my phone I could search and find the reference.
post #64402 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

+1

This had come up a few times and it actually is not true. DEQ has the ability to "track" channel level changes but receiver mfgrs have never implemented it. That is why there are conflicting posts from Chris. He later disavowed that statement after checking and discovering it was never implemented.

If I wasn't on my phone I could search and find the reference.

Yes, thanks batpig, I recall the same now that you bring it up.  And too lazy to search for the posts.  :-)

post #64403 of 70896
post #64404 of 70896

Thanks for digging this out, BP.  I believe there has been quite a bit of on-going confusion with this topic, and we now have the definitive answer to refer to going forward.

 

Keith, is Chris' response reflected in the FAQ?

post #64405 of 70896
DEQ has been killing me using PLII Music on 2 channel PCM music sources. It's one thing at a lower MV to elevate the overall SPL of the surrounds, but DEQ also seems to add a ridiculous amount of treble info as well. On some songs it isn't that noticeable, while on most others it comes off as a jumbled, compressed bag of sound from the surrounds that in no way sounds anything like the original recording. If I turn off DEQ and just have MultEQ on (Audyssey target curve) it sounds fine again. Re-enable DEQ and the funk instantly returns............I really like what DEQ does for bass, but HATE what it does to my surround field. I've tried all the RLO settings and still am not happy.

I have copied the Audyssey Flat Curve to the graphic equalizer and am currently going that route without any Audyssey.
post #64406 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

DEQ has been killing me using PLII Music on 2 channel PCM music sources. It's one thing at a lower MV to elevate the overall SPL of the surrounds, but DEQ also seems to add a ridiculous amount of treble info as well. On some songs it isn't that noticeable, while on most others it comes off as a jumbled, compressed bag of sound from the surrounds that in no way sounds anything like the original recording. If I turn off DEQ and just have MultEQ on (Audyssey target curve) it sounds fine again. Re-enable DEQ and the funk instantly returns............I really like what DEQ does for bass, but HATE what it does to my surround field. I've tried all the RLO settings and still am not happy.

I have copied the Audyssey Flat Curve to the graphic equalizer and am currently going that route without any Audyssey.

YMMV, but personallly I'd prefer turning off DEQ and keeping Multi EQ active over turning off Audyssey and using a graphic equalizer. IMO that's throwing out the baby with the proverbial bathwater.

You could also turn DEQ off for Music, and simply bump up the sub trim a little after Audyssey, lowering it back for multichannel music or movies if you want, That's preference vs. reference, of course.
post #64407 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post


YMMV, but personallly I'd prefer turning off DEQ and keeping Multi EQ active over turning off Audyssey and using a graphic equalizer. IMO that's throwing out the baby with the proverbial bathwater.

You could also turn DEQ off for Music, and simply bump up the sub trim a little after Audyssey, lowering it back for multichannel music or movies if you want, That's preference vs. reference, of course.

+1

 

I was a big fan of DEQ when I first got it a couple years ago, now not so much.  For sure not for music.  Tv doesn't have standards like film so don't use it there either.  And enough Blu-Ray are remastered for the home you may or may not need it there.  Based on that it only needs to be engaged very infrequently, and even then I don't like the surround boost.  So simply upping the trim level on the sub is enough for me when needed.  I even find myself using THX modes to get the flat curve along with no midrange compensation.  You all I'm really using Audyssey for is EQing the bass at this point.  It has me looking into ARC and Trinnov now where as previously I felt Audyssey was a no brainer.  

post #64408 of 70896
Thanks for the replies. My problem is that if I keep MultEQ engaged without DEQ, I really don't like my bass at all, as it's completely neutered ......I guess my preference isn't reference.wink.gif I love my bass with DEQ engaged, but hate the surround issue. I also don't like delving into the settings menu each time I watch or listen to a new program. Right now with Audyssey out of the loop, I seem to be getting the best of both worlds. My bass is how I like it, and the satellites sound nice too.

I A/B'd MultEQ set to "Audyssey" and set to "Graphic EQ" on PLII Music with my sub turned off, and to be very honest, I heard no difference at all to the inferior graphic equalizer and the superior Audyssey settings. They both sounded the same, and each sounded slightly better than OFF. I totally expected the "Audyssey" setting to sound better which would have made my problem even more frustrating, but since the EQ sounded the same it gave me a new option.
Edited by D Bone - 8/29/13 at 5:33pm
post #64409 of 70896
Why do you want to do surround sound? 2 ch should be left 2ch for music and surround if tv.
post #64410 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker97 View Post

Why do you want to do surround sound? 2 ch should be left 2ch for music and surround if tv.

I'm definitely not a stereo guy. I prefer the way PLII Music sounds with 2 channel music.
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