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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2149

post #64441 of 70896
I will borrow Stuart's words, if I may:..."Maybe this is too much of an oversimplification....",...but here goes:

1. Should one have the possibility to acoustically treat the room the less Audyssey MultEQ may be needed or can even be turned off,...but there is one condition. One must always listen to movie soundtracks at 0 dB reference level, although having MultEQ on won't really hurt! smile.gif

2. Should one not be able to listen to movies at 0 dB reference level DEQ is a must. Should one turn it off doesn't mean lack of understanding how DEQ works, but how our ears work and especially why (level dependent frequency depenency). biggrin.gif

3. Should one have a desire to use their HT systems with MultEQ and DEQ for music, ...well, there are a lot more things to consider.

4. Should one have a desire to tweak settings or in other words to enter Preference Land it's always A-OK once it is started from reference.
Edited by mogorf - 8/30/13 at 12:32pm
post #64442 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I will borrow Stuart's words, if I may:..."Maybe this is too much of an oversimplification....",...but here goes:

1. Should one have the possibility to acoustically treat the room the less Audyssey MultEQ may be needed or can even be turned off,...but there is one condition. One must always listen to movie soundtracks at 0 dB reference level, although having MultEQ on won't really hurt! smile.gif
 

 

Not at all true. It is perfectly possible to EQ a room for any SPL below Reference that one chooses to without the use of Audyssey. If you routinely listen, as I do for example, at around -6dB, then all you need to do is create the EQ curve that you need for that SPL.  If you happen to listen at some other level, say at night or whatever, it is easily possible to store a dozen different EQ curves in a PEQ, for use at any other SPL.

 

And as there are now AVRs which allow the use of DEQ even with Audyssey turned off, one could also run Audyssey, to get trims and delays set, and then turn Audyssey off but leave DEQ on.

 

It may come as a surprise or a shock, Feri, but people were EQing rooms before Audyssey was ever invented (and are still managing nicely in Pro studios the world over without the use of Audyssey). 

 

 

Quote:

 
2. Should one not be able to listen to movies at 0 dB reference level DEQ is a must. Should one turn it off doesn't mean lack of understanding how DEQ works, but how our ears work and especially why (level dependent frequency depenency). biggrin.gif

 

It isn’t at all a 'must' but it is indeed a convenience. It is pretty easy to apply a little bass boost when you need to turn down the MV. Remember that the thing DEQ does to the surround levels was based on a false premise (that our hearing 'falls off' with sounds from behind as their level decreases) so DEQ isn’t really needed there anyway. The surround boost applied by DEQ is one of the things people complain of most frequently in this thread.

 

There is also the issue raised in the last day or so - that so many BDs are now remastered for home use that DEQ may actually be taking the listener AWAY from Reference. Not to mention the fact that DEQ does not monitor changes to trim level (as Chris mistakenly used to believe) so anyone who runs their sub a little hot and who also runs DEQ is in unknown territory anyway. 

 

 

Quote:

 3. Should one have a desire to use their HT systems with MultEQ and DEQ for music, ...well, there are a lot more things to consider.

 

DEQ is an awful kludge for music because of the lack of standards. It might make music sound better, it might make it sound worse. No way to know.

 

Quote:

 4. Should one have a desire to tweak settings or in other words to enter Preference Land it's always A-OK once it is started from reference.

 

Yes, Chris, sorry, Feri, that is a mantra we have heard so often. The fact is most people apply preference one way or another, and of course there is nothing at all wrong with that.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 8/30/13 at 12:48pm
post #64443 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes, Chris, sorry, Feri, that is a mantra we have heard so often. The fact is most people apply preference one way or another, and of course there is nothing at all wrong with that.

This is, of course, your personal opinion Keith, which as you know I do respect, ...but nothing more...smile.gif
post #64444 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I will borrow Stuart words, if I may:..."Maybe this is too much of an oversimplification....",...but here goes:

1. Should one have the possibility to acoustically treat the room the less Audyssey MultEQ may be needed or can even be turned off,...but there is one condition. One must always listen to movie soundtracks at 0 dB reference level, although having MultEQ on won't really hurt! smile.gif

2. Should one not be able to listen to movies at 0 dB reference level DEQ is a must. Should one turn it off doesn't mean lack of understanding how DEQ works, but how our ears work. biggrin.gif

3. Should one have a desire to use their HT systems with MultEQ and DEQ for music, ...well, there are a lot more things to consider.

4. Should one have a desire to tweak settings or in other words to enter Preference Land it's always A-OK once it is started from reference.

I think #4 is something most of us agree on, Feri, but I have to admit I don't follow what you're saying about acoustic treatments (#1) only being valid for reference level listening of movie soundtracks.

As for the way our ears work, I only have one pair (the others are permanently on back order smile.gif), and they work for me quite well regardless of whether I use DEQ or not. I just prefer to use DEQ with well-recorded soundtracks that don't have aggressive surround mixes. The bass effect is IMO more subtle, but I have multiple subs.

As to MultiEQ and DEQ for music, for processed two-channel stereo, again IMO is that DEQ should be a no-no. However, I think that mostly has to do with the approach that Dolby PLII and DTS Neo make in creating ambience, and the effect of DEQ apply processing on top of processing making the way we hear the resulting sound worse (more obvious, at least). If/when DSX 2 makes its way to AVRs, perhaps the intention to 'reinvent the wheel' with an Audyssey-specific expansion of two-channel to 5.1 and beyond may change our minds about music and DEQ, or not. OTOH, we've been waiting for the Cubs for almost 70 years to make the World Series, so forgive any cynicism..,tongue.gif

HST, YMMV....and I'm looking forward to see what, if anything I take away from comparing what Audyssey does with surrounds to my el cheapo Trinnov/Sherwood 'black box' solution does with 2D/3D Remapping. I hope to _finally_ get busy on that over the holiday weekend.
Edited by sdrucker - 8/30/13 at 1:12pm
post #64445 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes, Chris, sorry, Feri, that is a mantra we have heard so often. The fact is most people apply preference one way or another, and of course there is nothing at all wrong with that.

This is, of course, your personal opinion Keith, which as you know I do respect, ...but nothing more...smile.gif

 

Feel free...

 

 

BTW, I edited my post while you were replying, so you might want to comment on other aspects of it.

post #64446 of 70896
Hamp, sorry you're having the issue. I agree with you Its hard to believe the 5 db is from that center piece change.
post #64447 of 70896
What changes were made to implement the in-wall rack?

If that wall space used to be a solid, flat panel or closet door, it's not any more. A rack of equipment is relatively porous in comparison, letting some sound energy escape from the room. I.e. acting to a certain extent as if it were an absorber.
post #64448 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

I think #4 is something most of us agree on, Feri, but I have to admit I don't follow what you're saying about acoustic treatments (#1) only being valid for reference level listening of movie soundtracks.

Stu, at reference level we are supposed to hear the exact same SQ at the exact same loundess level of movie sound tracks as heard by sound engineers in their studios during mixing/recording, i.e. the same frequency response will be present. Once we lower the MV the characteristics of our ears provided by Mother Nature will start to kick-in, i.e. will result in loss of sensitivity in the bass/treble region. Although acoustic treaments take care of standing waves causing dips and peaks of bass below Schroeder and reflections above Schroeder, they cannot take care of "equal loudness curves". For example, a bass trap will trap bass in the same manner regardless of level (SPL), but our ears will hear (or not hear) bass the same. Once the MV level is not 0 dB our ears need to be "tricked" by compensation for loss of bass and treble. This is not an Audyssey invention, it's been all around since the 1930's when Fletcher and Munson started their experiments with human hearing at Bell Labs.
Quote:
As for the way our ears work, I only have one pair (the others are permanently on back order smile.gif), and they work for me quite well regardless of whether I use DEQ or not. I just prefer to use DEQ with well-recorded soundtracks that don't have aggressive surround mixes. The bass effect is IMO more subtle, but I have multiple subs.

Everyone has only one pair of ears and they work with the same fundamentals (provided they are healthy, no tinnitus, no other deficiency, etc.). DEQ is, of course, basically meant for well-recorded soundtracks, a.k.a. movie tracks!!! Don't know what you mean by "aggressive surround mixes", though. We are still talking about movie sound tracks recorded to known standards set forth by SMTPE.
Quote:
As to MultiEQ and DEQ for music, for processed two-channel stereo, again IMO is that DEQ should be a no-no. However, I think that mostly has to do with the approach that Dolby PLII and DTS Neo make in creating ambience, and the effect of DEQ apply processing on top of processing making the way we hear the resulting sound worse (more obvious, at least). If/when DSX 2 makes its way to AVRs, perhaps the intention to 'reinvent the wheel' with an Audyssey-specific expansion of two-channel to 5.1 and beyond may change our minds about music and DEQ, or not. OTOH, we've been waiting for the Cubs for almost 70 years to make the World Series, so forgive any cynicism..,tongue.gif

DEQ is there to "trick" the ear when reference level is altered, and as such should have nothing to do with Dolby PL, or DTS Neo, or whatever processings we may find in our AVRs to make a 2 ch stereo recording into a multi-channel enjoyment.

Nice to talk to you Stu, ...take care. smile.gif
Edited by mogorf - 8/30/13 at 1:44pm
post #64449 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

 Although acoustic treaments take care of standing waves causing dips and peaks of bass below Schroeder and reflections above Schroeder, they cannot take care of "equal loudness curves". For example, a bass trap will trap bass in the same manner regardless of level (SPL), but our ears will hear (or not hear) bass the same. Once the MV level is not 0 dB our ears need to be "tricked" by compensation for loss of bass and treble. This is not an Audyssey invention, it's been all around since the 1930's when Fletcher and Munson started their experiments with human hearing at Bell Labs.
 

 

For a rabid Audyssey supporter, you're getting into very dangerous ground here, Feri.

 

Many people (including Geddes and Toole) believe that EQ-ing above Schroeder at all is not a good thing. Indeed, Audyssey didn't even seem to realise this themselves until XT32 came along, which actually doesn’t do all that much above Schroeder, unlike other versions of MultEQ which apply substantial correction there.

 

And to mention human hearing in the same breath as auto-EQ is also taking you right out there on to that thin ice.  Audyssey uses an omnidirectional mic as you know. Unfortunately, human beings do not have omnidirectional hearing. We have two ears and one head in between them, and this gives rise to Head Related Transfer Function (HRTF). Sounds above Schroeder coming at the mic from the left and right sides are heard the same from both directions. But sounds coming at a human being from the left are not heard the same in both ears because the head shadows the sound going to the right ear. This simple fact calls into question the entire basis of electronic EQ above Schroeder (using an omnidirectional mic). EQ-ing to the target curve is based on what the mic hears, not what human ears hear and as these are two very different things thanks to HRTF then one might question even using Audyssey at all other than for the bass frequencies. And wrt to the bass frequencies, a well-treated room plus some judicious use of PEQ can do all that Audyssey does, and more. (EDIT: but it does have a fairly steep learning curve, does require knowledge of how to use something like REW and does require a lot more effort than running auto-EQ, I will grant you).

 

Like I've said to you before, Audyssey can be (and for the majority it is) a useful tool, but it is not audio nirvana.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 8/30/13 at 2:38pm
post #64450 of 70896
Quote:
1. Should one have the possibility to acoustically treat the room the less Audyssey MultEQ may be needed or can even be turned off,...but there is one condition. One must always listen to movie soundtracks at 0 dB reference level, although having MultEQ on won't really hurt! smile.gif

Not at all true. It is perfectly possible to EQ a room for any SPL below Reference that one chooses to without the use of Audyssey. If you routinely listen, as I do for example, at around -6dB, then all you need to do is create the EQ curve that you need for that SPL. If you happen to listen at some other level, say at night or whatever, it is easily possible to store a dozen different EQ curves in a PEQ, for use at any other SPL.

Keith, why on Earth would anybody bother to do such a silly thing with a PEQ when DEQ is there to do it much better. I feel a great deal of overthinking stuff here!!!
Quote:
And as there are now AVRs which allow the use of DEQ even with Audyssey turned off, one could also run Audyssey, to get trims and delays set, and then turn Audyssey off but leave DEQ on.

Silly again, ...DEQ is supposed to work in conjunction with MultEQ, unless otherwise reference level and MV settings below reference level will be all over the map. Just like it is with music recordings. Go figure!
Quote:
It may come as a surprise or a shock, Feri, but people were EQing rooms before Audyssey was ever invented (and are still managing nicely in Pro studios the world over without the use of Audyssey).

Are you talking to me? tongue.gif
Quote:
2. Should one not be able to listen to movies at 0 dB reference level DEQ is a must. Should one turn it off doesn't mean lack of understanding how DEQ works, but how our ears work and especially why (level dependent frequency depenency). biggrin.gif

It isn’t at all a 'must' but it is indeed a convenience. It is pretty easy to apply a little bass boost when you need to turn down the MV. Remember that the thing DEQ does to the surround levels was based on a false premise (that our hearing 'falls off' with sounds from behind as their level decreases) so DEQ isn’t really needed there anyway. The surround boost applied by DEQ is one of the things people complain of most frequently in this thread.

Who told you that DEQ is based on a false premise. Please don't believe everything just coz it's written on Da Innernet. You gotta be better than that! smile.gif BTW, I never complained!
Quote:
There is also the issue raised in the last day or so - that so many BDs are now remastered for home use that DEQ may actually be taking the listener AWAY from Reference. Not to mention the fact that DEQ does not monitor changes to trim level (as Chris mistakenly used to believe) so anyone who runs their sub a little hot and who also runs DEQ is in unknown territory anyway.

Another sure thing you immediately believed coz it's on the Internet, eh? Come on Buddy! smile.gif As to DEQ monitoring the changes as Chris admitted we either gotta live with it or refrain from changing trims while watching movies. Problem solved. Up to you! smile.gif

Quote:
3. Should one have a desire to use their HT systems with MultEQ and DEQ for music, ...well, there are a lot more things to consider.


DEQ is an awful kludge for music because of the lack of standards. It might make music sound better, it might make it sound worse. No way to know.

Please don't forget that YOU do not listen to music in your HT room, so you are not supposed to comment on this issue, eh? smile.gif


Quote:
4. Should one have a desire to tweak settings or in other words to enter Preference Land it's always A-OK once it is started from reference.

Yes, Chris, sorry, Feri, that is a mantra we have heard so often. The fact is most people apply preference one way or another, and of course there is nothing at all wrong with that.

Should you not get the meaning of starting from reference is a pity, but up to you. smile.gif
post #64451 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

For a rabid Audyssey supporter, you're getting into very dangerous ground here, Feri.

Many people (including Geddes and Toole) believe that EQ-ing above Schroeder at all is not a good thing. Indeed, Audyssey didn't even seem to realise this themselves until XT32 came along, which actually doesn’t do all that much above Schroeder, unlike other versions of MultEQ which apply substantial correction there.

And to mention human hearing in the same breath as auto-EQ is also taking you right out there on to that thin ice.  Audyssey uses an omnidirectional mic as you know. Unfortunately, human beings do not have omnidirectional hearing. We have two ears and one head in between them, and this gives rise to Head Related Transfer Function (HRTF). Sounds above Schroeder coming at the mic from the left and right sides are heard the same from both directions. But sounds coming at a human being from the left are not heard the same in both ears because the head shadows the sound going to the right ear. This simple fact calls into question the entire basis of electronic EQ above Schroeder (using an omnidirectional mic). EQ-ing to the target curve is based on what the mic hears, not what human ears hear and as these are two very different things thanks to HRTF then one might question even using Audyssey at all other than for the bass frequencies. And wrt to the bass frequencies, a well-treated room plus some judicious use of PEQ can do all that Audyssey does, and more. (EDIT: but it does have a fairly steep learning curve, does require knowledge of how to use something like REW and does require a lot more effort than running auto-EQ, I will grant you).

Like I've said to you before, Audyssey can be (and for the majority it is) a useful tool, but it is not audio nirvana.

Nice try Keith, but this post has nothing to do with the on-going discussion. biggrin.giftongue.gif
post #64452 of 70896
Quote:
3. Should one have a desire to use their HT systems with MultEQ and DEQ for music, ...well, there are a lot more things to consider.


DEQ is an awful kludge for music because of the lack of standards. It might make music sound better, it might make it sound worse. No way to know.

Please don't forget that YOU do not listen to music in your HT room, so you are not supposed to comment on this issue, eh? smile.gif

I listen to mostly music and I will easily agree with this statement, DEQ is a mixed bag when it comes to the mixing standards with music for sure. Even on the same disc sometimes only some tracks would benefit from DEQ while others sounded just plain terrible. I have since really just skipped DEQ altogether and rarely engage it period. For music in most cases it just did more harm than good.
post #64453 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I listen to mostly music and I will easily agree with this statement, DEQ is a mixed bag when it comes to the mixing standards with music for sure. Even on the same disc sometimes only some tracks would benefit from DEQ while others sounded just plain terrible. I have since really just skipped DEQ altogether and rarely engage it period. For music in most cases it just did more harm than good.

Hi beast, care to expand a tad bit on how it is better for music without DEQ than it is with DEQ? What do you experience with DEQ off that you feel is better? What MV level(s) are you typically listening to music?
post #64454 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I listen to mostly music and I will easily agree with this statement, DEQ is a mixed bag when it comes to the mixing standards with music for sure. Even on the same disc sometimes only some tracks would benefit from DEQ while others sounded just plain terrible. I have since really just skipped DEQ altogether and rarely engage it period. For music in most cases it just did more harm than good.

Mixed bag is an understatement! however I've found a my consistent best of both work around that tends to suit me and my taste , with music I use Dynamic EQ off set to 5, I set Audyssey bypass my mains ( as they are optimally placed and I run them full range) ) and Audyssey all else. this is my across the board setting for multi/ch sacd which can be staggering in scale and dynamics. For combo HT/Music setups correcting only the center surrounds and subs is a great option and should be explored before discounting it all together. wink.gif
post #64455 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Mixed bag is an understatement! however I've found a my consistent best of both work around that tends to suit me and my taste , with music I use Dynamic EQ off set to 5, I set Audyssey bypass my mains ( as they are optimally placed and I run them full range) ) and Audyssey all else. this is my across the board setting for multi/ch sacd which can be staggering in scale and dynamics. For combo HT/Music setups correcting only the center surrounds and subs is a great option and should be explored before discounting it all together. wink.gif

Well, this is a setting usually never recommended, but if you like it stick with it. It's your system and who am I to talk you out of it, eh? Preference rules!!!!!!cool.gifwink.gifsmile.gif
post #64456 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

DEQ is there to "trick" the ear when reference level is altered, and as such should have nothing to do with Dolby PL, or DTS Neo, or whatever processings we may find in our AVRs to make a 2 ch stereo recording into a multi-channel enjoyment.

That Feri, was the entire reason why I only had a few hours sleep last night. Whatever DEQ does to either the frequency response or SPL, or heck both, during PLII Music processing of 2 channel signals is down right hideous. The problem only exists when DEQ is enabled and immediately disappears when its disabled. It's not an 'Audyssey' issue as MultEQ XT by itself doesn't cause the artifacts, just DEQ. I like, or did like anyway, DEQ but the lack of more granularity in its settings is its ultimate defect..........If a user could keep the bass boost and trim only the surround enhancements or vice versa, that would be a great place to start. I know all about RLO, but it is an all or nothing setting that effects both the bass boost and the surround enhancement.............I know, I know reference vs preference, but in the end preference will always win, after all, who wants to hate the way their system sounds even though it is setup "correctly" according to someone else's definition of reference. Not me, that's for sure. wink.gif
post #64457 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

That Feri, was the entire reason why I only had a few hours sleep last night. Whatever DEQ does to either the frequency response or SPL, or heck both, during PLII Music processing of 2 channel signals is down right hideous. The problem only exists when DEQ is enabled and immediately disappears when its disabled. It's not an 'Audyssey' issue as MultEQ XT by itself doesn't cause the artifacts, just DEQ. I like, or did like anyway, DEQ but the lack of more granularity in its settings is its ultimate defect..........If a user could keep the bass boost and trim only the surround enhancements or vice versa, that would be a great place to start. I know all about RLO, but it is an all or nothing setting that effects both the bass boost and the surround enhancement.............I know, I know reference vs preference, but in the end preference will always win, after all, who wants to hate the way their system sounds even though it is setup "correctly" according to someone else's definition of reference. Not me, that's for sure. wink.gif

D Bone, ...I think your case with DEQ causing artifacts needs further investigations,...I think it can be generally accepeed that DEQ is not made to make things worse, ...but if it does (like in your case) it needs a much closer scrutiny. Care to draft more details on your case?
post #64458 of 70896
The artifacts that I heard could be described as compressed noise when PLII Music was steering sounds to the surround speakers. It wasn't all sounds, but rather a specific frequency that I first heard on a Pink song, not sure what it's called, but I think it's U and your hand.........Maybe it was a guitar? I'm not sure. It wasn't obvious on every song, but once I heard it, there was no unhearing it. I believe the artifacts to be the end result of PLII Music's processing to create ambiance, followed by DEQ doing whatever the heck it does to completely make the offending sounds stand out like a sore thumb.
post #64459 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAMP568 View Post

Here is the in-wall rack:


What are your room dimensions? And is there enough space behind your second row to squeeze one of your subs back there?
post #64460 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

The artifacts that I heard could be described as compressed noise when PLII Music was steering sounds to the surround speakers. It wasn't all sounds, but rather a specific frequency that I first heard on a Pink song, not sure what it's called, but I think it's U and your hand.........Maybe it was a guitar? I'm not sure. It wasn't obvious on every song, but once I heard it, there was no unhearing it. I believe the artifacts to be the end result of PLII Music's processing to create ambiance, followed by DEQ doing whatever the heck it does to completely make the offending sounds stand out like a sore thumb.

Your description didn't bring me closer to a ..., ...well, don't know how to continue my own sentence,...BTW, what do you mean by compressed noise, is there such a thing?

Is this the song you are referring to? Any time stamp to where you hear those artifacts?

Anyone care to chime in? I'm lost here! mad.gif
Edited by mogorf - 8/30/13 at 3:52pm
post #64461 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Well, this is a setting usually never recommended, but if you like it stick with it. It's your system and who am I to talk you out of it, eh? Preference rules!!!!!!cool.gifwink.gifsmile.gif

There are times when the full Audyssey treatment shines ( always on movies & sometimes music) indeed I just like the tons of options at my disposal perhaps perhaps the Pro kit will close the gap wink.gif
post #64462 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

D Bone, ...I think your case with DEQ causing artifacts needs further investigations,...I think it can be generally accepeed that DEQ is not made to make things worse, ...but if it does (like in your case) it needs a much closer scrutiny. Care to draft more details on your case?

I thought it sounded fabulous in my setup biggrin.gif
post #64463 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Your description didn't bring me closer to a ..., ...well, don't know how to continue my own sentence,...BTW, what do you mean by compressed noise, is there such a thing?

Anyone care to chime in? I'm lost here! mad.gif

The DEQ effect may make peripherally annoying things appear noticably annoying...like a tiny pimple becoming a hard to miss pimple...is what I think he means. Call it the law of unintended consequences. How's that?
post #64464 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Your description didn't bring me closer to a ..., ...well, don't know how to continue my own sentence,...BTW, what do you mean by compressed noise, is there such a thing?

Anyone care to chime in? I'm lost here! mad.gif

The "only stereo is for 2 channel" guys are gonna love this and probably use it against me, but I don't care, because my preference is PLII Music for 2 channel. If you listen to your surrounds with your ear very close to them during 2 channel processing of PLII Music, you will hear certain sounds dart in and out to create the ambiance of 5.1 sound. Some of these sounds sound weird with your ear against the speaker, but sound great when seated where you're supposed to sit.

DEQ seemed to make *some* of those sounds, depending on frequency, sound to me in my listening position as if I had my ear to the speaker. Waaaay too loud, way too prominent and compressed. My ear and attention were immediately drawn away from the recording and towards the rear of the room in a "WTF was that" sort of way........I'm not sure I have the vocabulary to describe it any better, oh wait, I do......IT SUCKED!biggrin.gif
post #64465 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

The DEQ effect may make peripherally annoying things appear noticably annoying...like a tiny pimple becoming a hard to miss pimple...is what I think he means. Call it the law of unintended consequences. How's that?

Never would have thought of that Stuart! eek.gifsmile.gif
post #64466 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

The "only stereo is for 2 channel" guys are gonna love this and probably use it against me, but I don't care, because my preference is PLII Music for 2 channel. If you listen to your surrounds with your ear very close to them during 2 channel processing of PLII Music, you will hear certain sounds dart in and out to create the ambiance of 5.1 sound. Some of these sounds sound weird with your ear against the speaker, but sound great when seated where you're supposed to sit.

DEQ seemed to make *some* of those sounds, depending on frequency, sound to me in my listening position as if I had my ear to the speaker. Waaaay too loud, way too prominent and compressed. My ear and attention were immediately drawn away from the recording and towards the rear of the room in a "WTF was that" sort of way........I'm not sure I have the vocabulary to describe it any better, oh wait, I do......IT SUCKED!biggrin.gif

In that case you are better off with DEQ off, no more darts into your ears!!rolleyes.gif

Come on man, let's get serious, please! tongue.gifcool.gif

My recommendation: run Audyssey again after reading the FAQ to the letter! smile.gif
post #64467 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

My recommendation: run Audyssey again after reading the FAQ to the letter! smile.gif

LOL How did I know you'd say that..........Gotta be my fault.rolleyes.gif I have read the FAQ, used its recommendations as well as a chicken's foot, a rabbit's foot and all the usual voodoo required to get Audyssey's results perfect.
post #64468 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Never would have thought of that Stuart! eek.gifsmile.gif

I think it goes back to human beings not being robots: there's a way our hearing works that in a statistical model might show that as we move away from reference listening, bass and surrounds become less noticeable without compensation, and if you adjust certain frequencies and channels, DEQ will compensate in a predictable way at a given volume.

Unfortunately that's the "one size fits all" approach to curve fitting, which is unavoidable when you're selling a mass market consumer product. IOW the cymbals or background vocals that you might not notice overtly in a Dolby PLII DSP at either MV=0 or MV=-20 with DEQ engaged, might annoy the heck out of me at the same MV volume and DEQ use, with the same room and HT equipment.

And unless you're compulsively screwing around with an ADA processor with pro Trinnov or a mixing board dynamically at LT reference levels in your room, which is ultimately "preference", you can't customize what you hear to the source material, or your speakers FR for that matter.

FYI, the PC-based JRiver has some sort of adaptive volume control that may be dynamic. They have a routine called "Peak Value Normalization" that supposedly learns from a recording during playback to set constant volume levels relative to a complete playlist that's being fed to it, and "boosts low volume content, preserving dynamic range" (as per their forum). Anybody know anything about it or how what it's doing is different than what DEQ and DVOL does? Or is it more like a dynamic version of RLO?
post #64469 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

LOL How did I know you'd say that..........Gotta be my fault.rolleyes.gif I have read the FAQ, used its recommendations as well as a chicken's foot, a rabbit's foot and all the usual voodoo required to get Audyssey's results perfect.

I think you left out the ritual sacrifices....smile.gif
post #64470 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

I think it goes back to human beings not being robots: there's a way our hearing works that in a statistical model might show that as we move away from reference listening, bass and surrounds become less noticeable without compensation, and if you adjust certain frequencies and channels, DEQ will compensate in a predictable way at a given volume.

Unfortunately that's the "one size fits all" approach to curve fitting, which is unavoidable when you're selling a mass market consumer product. IOW the cymbals or background vocals that you might not notice overtly in a Dolby PLII DSP at either MV=0 or MV=-20 with DEQ engaged, might annoy the heck out of me at the same MV volume and DEQ use, with the same room and HT equipment.

And unless you're compulsively screwing around with an ADA processor with pro Trinnov or a mixing board dynamically at LT reference levels in your room, which is ultimately "preference", you can't customize what you hear to the source material, or your speakers FR for that matter.

FYI, the PC-based JRiver has some sort of adaptive volume control that may be dynamic. They have a routine called "Peak Value Normalization" that supposedly learns from a recording during playback to set constant volume levels relative to a complete playlist that's being fed to it, and "boosts low volume content, preserving dynamic range" (as per their forum). Anybody know anything about it or how what it's doing is different than what DEQ and DVOL does? Or is it more like a dynamic version of RLO?

You sir can speak for me from now on........biggrin.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

I think you left out the ritual sacrifices....smile.gif

Shhhhhhhh, no I didn't
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)