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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2161

post #64801 of 70896
Greetings

I had a couple questions about proper speaker setup.

1. I was reading about the "38% into the length of the room rule" and I'm pretty close to having my listening position set up this way. However, within the same article (realtraps speaker setup), there was this:

"the worst place to sit is exactly halfway back in the room, with your ears halfway between the floor and ceiling, or halfway between the left and right walls. You shouldn't put loudspeakers in those places either. Loudspeaker tweeters should be at ear level, but you should raise or lower them a few inches if needed to avoid having the woofer exactly halfway between the floor and ceiling. Likewise, while left-right symmetry is important for proper imaging, you could optionally offset your listening position a few inches to either side to avoid being exactly halfway between the left and right side walls."

Based on this, when I run audyssey calibration, should I not put the mic at my listening position (centered between side walls) for the first measurement but instead maybe place it 6-12" to the left or right of where I would normally sit? My main listening position is right in the middle of the two side walls (16' wide, so I am sitting about 8' from each side wall).

2. I have been fooling around with sub placement, trying to get the best sound until I get a mic for REW so I can do some measurements. However lately, each time I move the sub and then rerun audyssey, I am noticing that the speaker levels audyssey has set for the side surrounds has changed from -1.5 to 0, then to +0.5 and now most recently +1.0. Also the 3db low end roll off point was usually 60 hz, but i seen it jump to 80 hz and now recently its at 40 hz, the last few audyssey runs. Nothing has changed in the room other than me moving the sub from the back of the room to the front. What could be causing this?

My side surrounds are at 90 degrees from listening position, audyssey calculated distance of about 7.7-7.8 ft and I have the tweeters placed at about 42" height (which is about 6" above ear height (36")). Should I raise my side surrounds up a bit? I always wondered if they should be higher, but I have read that either at ear level or slightly above ear level is correct. I assume 6" height between tweeter and ear level is considered slightly above.

Thanks for your time
post #64802 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I can tell you from personal experience that's not good enough. Dynamic Volume will prevent the bass from spiking as much as it would otherwise but it will NOT attenuate the bass below the other sounds. The sub is still plenty rumbly even in Midnight mode. And then you restrict the overall dynamics significantly. It MIGHT be enough to prevent neighbors from complaining, but I can tell you that it wasn't sufficient in my situation. If you want to preserve overall dynamics but "attack" the subwoofer's bass production directly, LFC (or lacking that, turning off the subwoofer completely) is much more effective.

BP, agree with you, but if the neighbours are not complaining anymore then the OP has reached his goal with his current AVR. Hopefully he is not going to listen at around midnight with DynVol ON and MV set to 0 dB, eh? tongue.gif
post #64803 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonT35 View Post

Greetings

I had a couple questions about proper speaker setup.

1. I was reading about the "38% into the length of the room rule" and I'm pretty close to having my listening position set up this way. However, within the same article (realtraps speaker setup), there was this:

"the worst place to sit is exactly halfway back in the room, with your ears halfway between the floor and ceiling, or halfway between the left and right walls. You shouldn't put loudspeakers in those places either. Loudspeaker tweeters should be at ear level, but you should raise or lower them a few inches if needed to avoid having the woofer exactly halfway between the floor and ceiling. Likewise, while left-right symmetry is important for proper imaging, you could optionally offset your listening position a few inches to either side to avoid being exactly halfway between the left and right side walls."

Based on this, when I run audyssey calibration, should I not put the mic at my listening position (centered between side walls) for the first measurement but instead maybe place it 6-12" to the left or right of where I would normally sit? My main listening position is right in the middle of the two side walls (16' wide, so I am sitting about 8' from each side wall).

2. I have been fooling around with sub placement, trying to get the best sound until I get a mic for REW so I can do some measurements. However lately, each time I move the sub and then rerun audyssey, I am noticing that the speaker levels audyssey has set for the side surrounds has changed from -1.5 to 0, then to +0.5 and now most recently +1.0. Also the 3db low end roll off point was usually 60 hz, but i seen it jump to 80 hz and now recently its at 40 hz, the last few audyssey runs. Nothing has changed in the room other than me moving the sub from the back of the room to the front. What could be causing this?

My side surrounds are at 90 degrees from listening position, audyssey calculated distance of about 7.7-7.8 ft and I have the tweeters placed at about 42" height (which is about 6" above ear height (36")). Should I raise my side surrounds up a bit? I always wondered if they should be higher, but I have read that either at ear level or slightly above ear level is correct. I assume 6" height between tweeter and ear level is considered slightly above.

Thanks for your time

 

 

Jason, my MLP is centered between the left and right walls and I don't measure any ill effects.  Theoretically, this would place the MLP in a null for the primary width mode, which is 29Hz, but my bass measurements don't reveal any issues down to below 20Hz.

 

Your first measurement position should always be at the MLP, assuming it is centered between the two main speakers, and at ear height.  For seating arrangements where the MLP is not on the center line between the two main speakers, there are differing opinions regarding where to take the first measurement, but this doesn't apply to you.

 

As far as the height of the surrounds, I think it depends on the type of speaker you have.  If you have a direct firing monopole, then as long as the speaker is aimed at the MLP, the height should not make a big difference.  If you have dipole surrounds, I believe the height is more critical.  Perhaps someone with dipoles will comment.

post #64804 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

After you've run Audyssey's calibration with a subwoofer, you can change the front speakers back and forth between Small and Large without invalidating the calibration. However, you will loose the Low Frequency Effects channel, which is always sent to the subwoofer channel if the receiver has detected one.

Turn off the power on the subwoofer itself so that the receiver doesn't know it's missing. If you disable it in the receiver it'll insist that you rerun Audyssey.

Selden, this last part is incorrect. Audyssey only forces a re-run if you ADD speakers. Disabling the subwoofer in the receiver's Speaker Config will automatically change the front speakers to LARGE and reroute all bass (including LFE) to the FR/FL mains.

That's good to know! My previous understanding was that any internal change in the number of speakers invalidated the calibration. I've always run with a sub, though, and have never tried to turn it off.
post #64805 of 70896
Mains are MartinLogan Theos. I don't want to upgrade the receiver from 3313 to X4000 at this time, haven't even had it for a year! So you guys are saying that if I get a subwoofer, then turn it off at night AND set the receiver to "no sub", it will be the same sound as I'm experiencing right now without a sub?
post #64806 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

Mains are MartinLogan Theos. I don't want to upgrade the receiver from 3313 to X4000 at this time, haven't even had it for a year! So you guys are saying that if I get a subwoofer, then turn it off at night AND set the receiver to "no sub", it will be the same sound as I'm experiencing right now without a sub?

Hi SubSolar,

I can u'stand your position for not wanting to upgrade at the moment. smile.gif And yeah, turning off sub will be exacly like what you are experiencing right now.

For a matter of convenience and comfort I have my sub plugged into one of these wireless power sockets:



Anyhow, who likes to get up from MLP just to turn off the sub!! wink.gifwink.gifwink.gif
post #64807 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

Mains are MartinLogan Theos. I don't want to upgrade the receiver from 3313 to X4000 at this time, haven't even had it for a year! So you guys are saying that if I get a subwoofer, then turn it off at night AND set the receiver to "no sub", it will be the same sound as I'm experiencing right now without a sub?

turning the sub to "off" at the AVR will make it want to re-do audyssey each time you turn it back on. My suggestion would be to at least try the dynVol first along with knocking the sub level down some at the same time if it is not enough, remember the original level it was at to return it to a good setting when you do want it and see how that works.

Next on the list is setting your mains to "large" and turning the sub off at the subwoofer (or amp) and leaving it on in the AVR, but like another member said, you will lose the .1 content if watching multi channel any way you cut it, other than turning off the sub on the receiver setting. It would just stink having to do this and then everytime you cut it back on, run audyssey again. Odds are if you are listening at low levels, you wont want the .1 LFE effects anyways so it really wouldnt matter if you lost them. Most mixers have LFE content mixed into the mains anyways.
post #64808 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi SubSolar,

I can u'stand your position for not wanting to upgrade at the moment. smile.gif And yeah, turning off sub will be exacly like what you are experiencing right now.

For a matter of convenience and comfort I have my sub plugged into one of these wireless power sockets:



Anyhow, who likes to get up from MLP just to turn off the sub!! wink.gifwink.gifwink.gif

Feri, if the OP sets subs=None, then why would he need to power off the sub? And just powering off the sub and leaving the mains set to "Small" isn't correct either.
post #64809 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Feri, if the OP sets subs=None, then why would he need to power off the sub? And just powering off the sub and leaving the mains set to "Small" isn't correct either.

With the remote sockets he does not need to set the sub to "none". It is a convenient solution just to power off the sub while sitting at MLP! smile.gif
post #64810 of 70896
With the speakers still set to "small", this would result in no bass below the crossover. The OP asked how to configure things so that the audio would be the same as what he currently has with no sub, and the correct answer is to set the mains to large with subs=none. The sub doesn't need to be powered off.
post #64811 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

With the speakers still set to "small", this would result in no bass below the crossover. The OP asked how to configure things so that the audio would be the same as what he currently has with no sub, and the correct answer is to set the mains to large. The sub doesn't need to be powered off.

I think the OP's main concern was neighbours "suffering" from bass at late night. There are multiple solutions already offer to him from turning off sub to buying another AVR with LFC. Setting mains to lagre may still annoy neighbours, will it not? cool.gif
post #64812 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

With the speakers still set to "small", this would result in no bass below the crossover. The OP asked how to configure things so that the audio would be the same as what he currently has with no sub, and the correct answer is to set the mains to large with subs=none. The sub doesn't need to be powered off.

My only argument here is when he sets the subs back to "on" that audyssey will ask to recalibrate in order to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I think the OP's main concern was neighbours "suffering" from bass at late night. There are multiple solutions already offer to him from turning off sub to buying another AVR with LFC. Setting mains to lagre may still annoy neighbours, will it not? cool.gif

Potentially but if he already doesn't have a problem with it, why would he all of a sudden start?
post #64813 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

My only argument here is when he sets the subs back to "on" that audyssey will ask to recalibrate in order to do so.

In this case if he turns down the sub trim and reaches -12 dB the next step will be "OFF". At least that's how my Denon works. Keeping this in mind won't make it necessary to recalibrate.smile.gif
post #64814 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

You could drop even more coin for an Audyssey LFC (Low Frequency Containment) enabled avr.


Max

I've read the marketing description of what LFC is supposed to do, but does anyone have any info (measurements, maybe?) about what it does to the AVR's output?
post #64815 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post


I've read the marketing description of what LFC is supposed to do, but does anyone have any info (measurements, maybe?) about what it does to the AVR's output?

 

 

You can see its effect here:  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1346723/the-audyssey-pro-installer-kit-thread-faq-in-post-1/3220_20#post_22489446

post #64816 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

I have a Denon 3313 right now and no subwoofer. I was thinking of getting a subwoofer, but since I live in an apartment for now I'd have to turn it off after 10 p.m. How will this work? If I calibrate Audyssey with a sub, won't I lose sounds when the subwoofer is turned off? Or can I set the receiver to send those to the mains when the subwoofer isn't on (like how it does now)?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post

Mains are MartinLogan Theos. I don't want to upgrade the receiver from 3313 to X4000 at this time, haven't even had it for a year! So you guys are saying that if I get a subwoofer, then turn it off at night AND set the receiver to "no sub", it will be the same sound as I'm experiencing right now without a sub?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


I think the OP's main concern was neighbours "suffering" from bass at late night. There are multiple solutions already offer to him from turning off sub to buying another AVR with LFC. Setting mains to lagre may still annoy neighbours, will it not? cool.gif

 

As with most of your conversations these days, Feri, you continue to argue for much longer than the original post warrants.  If you were to take the trouble to review the OP's questions, he clearly asks how to return things to the way they used to be before he adds a sub.  The answer is to set subs=none.  Can we move on now?

post #64817 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post





As with most of your conversations these days, Feri, you continue to argue for much longer than the original post warrants.  If you were to take the trouble to review the OP's questions, he clearly asks how to return things to the way they used to be before he adds a sub.  The answer is to set subs=none.  Can we move on now?

Once the personal tone is skipped we can move on! Please.
post #64818 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

My only argument here is when he sets the subs back to "on" that audyssey will ask to recalibrate in order to do so.

In this case if he turns down the sub trim and reaches -12 dB the next step will be "OFF". At least that's how my Denon works. Keeping this in mind won't make it necessary to recalibrate.smile.gif

guys -- see my response to Selden above. Audyssey will NOT force you to re run if you turn the sub on/off in Speaker Config. It's only of you ADD speakers beyond the calibrated config.

I do this all the time. For example when I was recently testing something to do with stereo (long story and the specifics aren't relevant) I went into manual setup and turned off center, surrounds and sub. I was able to reactivate them without re running Audyssey, because there are already calculated EQ filters for those channels saved in memory.

The simplest and fastest solution for the OP to revert to the current setup after he adds a sub is to use the web GUI to simple set sub to "None" when he wants it off. Front speakers switch to Large automatically and it's like he never added the sub to his system. As Jerry points out physically turning off the sub is an unnecessary step.
post #64819 of 70896
Interesting, I guess I am thinking from my last experience that my post was the case. I bet what I did was not run aud. with a sub in line and that is why it prompted me to re-run once I added one back in... good call sir smile.gif and yes, it has been quite a while since I didnt have subs present in my setup so my memory did not serve me correctly....This time biggrin.gif
post #64820 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

What if I told you, there is no bottom to this hole?
+1

Listen to this man - the real knowledge in this field is not really known to the laymen/sound engineer types anyway.
post #64821 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's not the horn loading that I am against - just horn loaded in a relatively small room with the MLP in the 'near field' (as max has said in his long and informative post). In a bigger space I'd be happy I think.

Well I think people think horns and Klipsch are synonymous. Higher end horn based speakers like Danley or JTR's that use high end compression drivers are often reviewed as the total opposite of harsh but rather pleasing no matter the volume dynamic thrown at it. Certainly we can't stereotype right? I plan on these as my HF drivers in my LCR front soundstage. 10 ft about smile.gif

The big one of course
post #64822 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's not the horn loading that I am against - just horn loaded in a relatively small room with the MLP in the 'near field' (as max has said in his long and informative post). In a bigger space I'd be happy I think.

Well I think people think horns and Klipsch are synonymous. Higher end horn based speakers like Danley or JTR's that use high end compression drivers are often reviewed as the total opposite of harsh but rather pleasing no matter the volume dynamic thrown at it. Certainly we can't stereotype right? I plan on these as my HF drivers in my LCR front soundstage. 10 ft about smile.gif

The big one of course

Slight differences between horns and waveguides. I can't recall where I saw it, but a graph comparison of near/mid field measurements of some non-Heritage line Klipsch (eg. LaScala/Klipschorn etc.) showed a tilted up response towards 20kHz where most pro compression drivers with waveguides tend to be flat or more commonly, rolled off somewhat above 10kHz.

I haven't seen the Noesis measurements, but the majority of compression driver tweeters I've seen in pro sound reinforcement speakers rolled off above 13kHz to 16kHz. Not all of them though.

I know Geddes and Procella use compression drivers that are pretty flat out to 20kHz, and I'd assume Jeff does the same.


Max
post #64823 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
 

As far as the height of the surrounds, I think it depends on the type of speaker you have.  If you have a direct firing monopole, then as long as the speaker is aimed at the MLP, the height should not make a big difference.  If you have dipole surrounds, I believe the height is more critical.  Perhaps someone with dipoles will comment.

 

I currently have tripoles, which replaced dipoles, which replaced monopoles. I found the best result from monopoles was with them high up in the corners, deliberately not aimed at the MLP. With the tripoles and dipoles I have them at slightly over 90 degrees behind me (I’d have them at 110 degrees if I could) and about 2.5 feet above ear height. This arrangements works very well for me and causes no problems of any kind with the Audyssey calibration. Note: movies only in my room.

post #64824 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Yeah, switching from the 3313 to the X4000 would add LFC and let you run with the sub on all the time, just engage LFC at night.

Alternately, it's super easy to disable the sub in Speaker Config using the web browser interface.

Another handy option with the 3313 (after buying a sub) could be to engage Dynamic Volume and set it to "Midnight". smile.gif

I can tell you from personal experience that's not good enough. Dynamic Volume will prevent the bass from spiking as much as it would otherwise but it will NOT attenuate the bass below the other sounds. The sub is still plenty rumbly even in Midnight mode. And then you restrict the overall dynamics significantly. It MIGHT be enough to prevent neighbors from complaining, but I can tell you that it wasn't sufficient in my situation. If you want to preserve overall dynamics but "attack" the subwoofer's bass production directly, LFC (or lacking that, turning off the subwoofer completely) is much more effective.

 

An off-the-wall suggestion for the OP is to get a Buttkicker. He can then turn the subs off and turn the Buttkicker on - when the BK is nicely adjusted, the effect is remarkable - he will hear a little bass from his mains but the BK will 'reinforce' it in his mind and he will actually believe he is hearing real bass. When he stands up, the 'bass' will mostly disappear. When he sits down again it will come back. It's hard to believe this psychoacoustical 'trick' works this way but I can tell you from personal experience that it does. I set up such an arrangement for a friend who listens late at night but has neighbours who are very light sleepers and who were disturbed mainly by bass seeping into their house.  Worth a try.

post #64825 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

My only argument here is when he sets the subs back to "on" that audyssey will ask to recalibrate in order to do so.

In this case if he turns down the sub trim and reaches -12 dB the next step will be "OFF". At least that's how my Denon works. Keeping this in mind won't make it necessary to recalibrate.smile.gif

guys -- see my response to Selden above. Audyssey will NOT force you to re run if you turn the sub on/off in Speaker Config. It's only of you ADD speakers beyond the calibrated config.

I do this all the time. For example when I was recently testing something to do with stereo (long story and the specifics aren't relevant) I went into manual setup and turned off center, surrounds and sub. I was able to reactivate them without re running Audyssey, because there are already calculated EQ filters for those channels saved in memory.

The simplest and fastest solution for the OP to revert to the current setup after he adds a sub is to use the web GUI to simple set sub to "None" when he wants it off. Front speakers switch to Large automatically and it's like he never added the sub to his system. As Jerry points out physically turning off the sub is an unnecessary step.

 

Absolutely. Farting about with wireless mains plugs and so on is a red herring.

post #64826 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Slight differences between horns and waveguides. I can't recall where I saw it, but a graph comparison of near/mid field measurements of some non-Heritage line Klipsch (eg. LaScala/Klipschorn etc.) showed a tilted up response towards 20kHz where most pro compression drivers with waveguides tend to be flat or more commonly, rolled off somewhat above 10kHz.

I haven't seen the Noesis measurements, but the majority of compression driver tweeters I've seen in pro sound reinforcement speakers rolled off above 13kHz to 16kHz. Not all of them though.

I know Geddes and Procella use compression drivers that are pretty flat out to 20kHz, and I'd assume Jeff does the same.


Max

Those 2 way coaxials in the Noesis are actually good up to 24khz measured. a little higher than the average CD, but the pricetag reflects it biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifrolleyes.gif
post #64827 of 70896
I actually expect products released to production to work as they advertise. I will praise those that do, and slam without mercy those that do not.

NAD T757 came today. It uses AUDESSEY to set speaker levels, distances, and crossovers. it still seemed to think my speakers violate the laws of physics. It also insisted one of my surrounds was out of phase, where the Marantz and the Emo did not. ( It is not, verified with a battery) As it has no eq capability, fixing the crossovers was easy. I am using an old 31 band eq fro the sub. Close to flat. Sounds great. You might guess, I am still not impressed.

If you have read owners manuals recently, ( about 20 in the last few weeks) you will see they are not clear and direct. Vague is almost too kind. A good example is looking at NAD documentation, you would not have a clue what AUDESSEY features were implemented. A couple of simple sentences is all it takes.
post #64828 of 70896
Read the Audyssey FAQ on page 1 of this thread.
post #64829 of 70896
Hi guys
can I run audyssey xt32 setup if I'm driving LFC with external amps connected with preouts from denon 4311ci and surrounds with the 4311ci amps ?
post #64830 of 70896
Your post is confusing. What is LFC?

I can't tell what you are asking exactly but Audyssey doesn't care whether you are using internal vs external amps. Any processing happens well before the amplification takes place.
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