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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2174

post #65191 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Beast, so I'm good to raise my XO point on the mains without losing any Audyssey settings right? My damn on screen display stopped working on the Marantz after I saved Audyssey.

You can raise fine, just lot lower. Can't go any lower than the "full-range" your sweep reads.
post #65192 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

You can raise fine, just lot lower. Can't go any lower than the "full-range" your sweep reads.



That's what I've always read, just checking. The phase error bugs me because they are not out of phase. What do you usually do in this case, skip the error?
post #65193 of 70900
does it repeat the error consistently?
post #65194 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

does it repeat the error consistently?



Yes.
post #65195 of 70900
How do you know the sub is not out of phase with the mains? The error probably refers to a mains sub mis match.
post #65196 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

How do you know the sub is not out of phase with the mains? The error probably refers to a mains sub mis match.



I don't know, I've only run Audyssey a couple of times in my life so is that what you do is switch the phase to 180 on the sub?
post #65197 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post


That's what I've always read, just checking. The phase error bugs me because they are not out of phase. What do you usually do in this case, skip the error?

 

 

I have never had any satellite speakers reported out of phase by Audyssey.  However, Audyssey always reports my sub channel out of phase, and I ignore it.  Once, out of curiosity, I switched the sub phase, ran Audyssey, and checked the results.  The frequency response was worse, which is why I ignore the error now.

 

On the satellite speakers, there are a number of ways to check the phase.  As long as the tests report correct phasing, I would ignore any Audyssey warnings.  This is exactly the advice given in Audyssey's own FAQ.

post #65198 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I finally got a new sub today (Hsu VTF-15h) and ran Audyssey. It produced a phase error for my L&R mains (Revel F-52's) which I skipped. It set them to large crossover to full band. This kind of surprised me. I'd appreciate your feedback guys. Thanks.


Just clarifying your issue. So the out of phase error happened on 3 channels: FR, FL, and Subwoofer?
post #65199 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Just clarifying your issue. So the out of phase error happened on 3 channels: FR, FL, and Subwoofer?



No just the FL & FR not the sub. But I triple checked they are wires correctly
post #65200 of 70900
oh i see you have tower speakers - aren't those frequently made with out of phase subs on them?


a wacky thing you could try is moving your speakers around a bit and toe them all in to a very 'near' position that you place the mic at and rerun the test for a moment and see if it still 'hears' things out of phase


edit: just saw your reply so disregard my 'wacky' idea. I think its just a case of your towers having the subs set out of phase intentionally. Revel might let you in on whether they did this or not.


I wouldn't worry if the wiring is correct.
post #65201 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post


I have never had any satellite speakers reported out of phase by Audyssey.  However, Audyssey always reports my sub channel out of phase, and I ignore it.  Once, out of curiosity, I switched the sub phase, ran Audyssey, and checked the results.  The frequency response was worse, which is why I ignore the error now.

On the satellite speakers, there are a number of ways to check the phase.  As long as the tests report correct phasing, I would ignore any Audyssey warnings.  This is exactly the advice given in Audyssey's own FAQ.



So if Audyssey reports a phase error for my mains changing the sub to 180 degrees will make no difference?
post #65202 of 70900
Didn't this happen when you got your new sub and not before?
post #65203 of 70900
I really don't think this has anything to do with the subwoofer channel at all.

imo, you are all set, don't mess with anything except deciding on XO and whether you are going the small or large route for your setup.
post #65204 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

I like the idea of covering all the furniture with blankets before the EQ but is it not actually changing the room into something it truly isn't?
Would not a more accurate way be to place people in the seats and do the measurements, at least the room would be more truthful....

I just wonder with blankets everywhere is a bit like installing acoustic treatment to the room just for the EQ then after its saved removing them.rolleyes.gif


I thought the exact same thing! That's why it never crossed my mind to cover all of the leather surfaces. My buddy thought that I could be getting some erroneous readings in the treble based on the leather surface as well as the shape of the couches. Again, I don't pretend to have the scientific reason, but everything we did sure worked. This guy designs and builds sub enclosures, and I don't mean the car show type, but rather the brand spankin' new car that the dealer trusts him with type............He also has Audyssey XT32 at his home and said he had a few issues that took a bit of work to get to his liking, but they were all bass/crossover blend related.
post #65205 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I really don't think this has anything to do with the subwoofer channel at all.

imo, you are all set, don't mess with anything except deciding on XO and whether you are going the small or large route for your setup.



That's what I thought. It just came up with the same phase error again so I'll just skip it and not reverse the speaker wires?
post #65206 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

I like the idea of covering all the furniture with blankets before the EQ but is it not actually changing the room into something it truly isn't?
Would not a more accurate way be to place people in the seats and do the measurements, at least the room would be more truthful....
Tried by another poster, apparently with favourable results:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

I have run Audyssey XT 32 for over three years via the Denon 4311CI through many calibrations because of setup changes. A couple of nights ago, I decided to try something different in terms of the MLP. I placed the microphone at ear level and then sat in the MLP for all 8 positions. For the MLP, I had to scoot downward. The result in terms of measurement had to do with the two subs. Previously, the latency yielded a result for the second sub at 24 feet while the first sub was somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 feet away from the MLP. This time the estimated distance for the second sub was 8 feet which is about what it actually is.

The other results from Audyssey XT32 were similar or the same as previously, except for that second sub. Then the question becomes what does it sound like? It is a relative thing, because until one hears something better or thinks is better, one cannot realize what was deficient with the other calibration(s). The result was a much smoother sound with less harshness (this is relative to the previous calibration that had been done in January 2013) and better definition to my ears. The initial rationale is that sound is different in an empty room and why calibrate in an empty room without a listener. So I tried it and that was my result. YMMV, but it is worth a try, if one has run out of simple things to do relative to the home theater system.
post #65207 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I really don't think this has anything to do with the subwoofer channel at all.

imo, you are all set, don't mess with anything except deciding on XO and whether you are going the small or large route for your setup.



That's what I thought. It just came up with the same phase error again so I'll just skip it and not reverse the speaker wires?

if you know you got red going to red and black going to black, definitely do not reverse them. I'll bet you your speaker manufacturer intentionally shifted the phase of your tower's subs and its just the mic picking that up. Enjoy those nice looking speakers!
post #65208 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

I like the idea of covering all the furniture with blankets before the EQ but is it not actually changing the room into something it truly isn't?
Would not a more accurate way be to place people in the seats and do the measurements, at least the room would be more truthful....

I just wonder with blankets everywhere is a bit like installing acoustic treatment to the room just for the EQ then after its saved removing them.rolleyes.gif


I thought the exact same thing! That's why it never crossed my mind to cover all of the leather surfaces. My buddy thought that I could be getting some erroneous readings in the treble based on the leather surface as well as the shape of the couches. Again, I don't pretend to have the scientific reason, but everything we did sure worked. This guy designs and builds sub enclosures, and I don't mean the car show type, but rather the brand spankin' new car that the dealer trusts him with type............He also has Audyssey XT32 at his home and said he had a few issues that took a bit of work to get to his liking, but they were all bass/crossover blend related.

Beast was just talking about throwing a blanket over leather couches to reduce the reflections behind his seat a little while ago as well.
post #65209 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Beast was just talking about throwing a blanket over leather couches to reduce the reflections behind his seat a little while ago as well.

OK, but unless you are listening with all of your furniture covered with those blankets, why would doing the Audyssey calibrations with blankets-on produce a result that sounds good with blankets-ff?
post #65210 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

if you know you got red going to red and black going to black, definitely do not reverse them. I'll bet you your speaker manufacturer intentionally shifted the phase of your tower's subs and its just the mic picking that up. Enjoy those nice looking speakers!



Thanks for your help!
post #65211 of 70900
I thought that same thing and IDK. Unless somehow the reflections 'confuse' the dsp more than they would otherwise confuse the way we hear them, it doesn't make much sense to me either. Maybe it just makes the DSP 'do less' in a place it was doing harm to begin with (just random thoughts here).
post #65212 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I thought that same thing and IDK. Unless somehow the reflections 'confuse' the dsp more than they would otherwise confuse the way we hear them, it doesn't make much sense to me either. Maybe it just makes the DSP 'do less' in a place it was doing harm to begin with (just random thoughts here).

Yes its a very interesting thought. Blankets over all the furniture may produce a better sound after XT32, but is it worse after we remove all the blankets, I don't know, worth a try?????
post #65213 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Actually, I believe I was the first OCD individual to bring up the plumb bob method, except the way I used it allowed replicating mic positions in 3 dimensions to the 1/4".


I don't use this anymore because I discovered that I get great calibration results by using 3 measurements centered around my MLP (only seat I care about). The resulting calibration (*in my room with my setup), produces better results at the MLP than the standard 8 positions recommended by Audyssey, and is at least as good as clustering an 8-point measurement centered around the MLP. That and ceiling panels make this procedure a PITA.

The results were measured in REW with measurements taken at ear height at the center of my head position in the MLP, + positions 6" to the left, right, forward and back. The advantage for me after performing all these calibrations and comparison measurements, is that Audyssey calibrations are much faster now.


Max

Max - can you clarify your 3 position measurement technique - where exactly do you place the microphone for the 3 positions. Also - are you saying that you measured the 3 Audyssey positions in REW using 5 positions? Just curious, as I may try this technique next time I need to break out the measuring gear.
For the 3-point calibration, I place the mic ear height center of my MLP + 8" forward and rearward.

I don't recommend using this pattern UNLESS you can independently confirm with something like REW, that it works at least as well as more conventional patterns with 8 positions. Yes, I checked the results of the 3 different patterns (std Audyssey 8-point, clustered 8-pt and 3-pt), by measuring the results at 5 mic placements centered on my MLP.


Max
post #65214 of 70900
I'm not good at describing what I hear but between my new subwoofer and the time I spent with Audyssey today has paid off. I think my setup just stepped up to a new level. My front stage totally disappeared and seems to be coming from farther back than what the speaker placement actually is and the imaging is perfect. My only concern is the cushions on my couch come very close to the height of my ears and therefore the mic placement when I run Audyssey and my GF seems to think the sound is "missing" something. I think the sound is much different than what it was and it will take a little getting used to.
post #65215 of 70900
I was looking for the list of equipment with Audyssey technology and can't find it. The links to the pages that Google produced on the Audyssey site are all stale. The Audyssey Blog is also gone. Does anyone have a fairly recent list that they can post?
post #65216 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I agree that raising the levels with the aid of an external SPL meter is best avoided, and will also have an impact in DEQ, as your friend suggested.

I have updated the FAQ as here - thanks! :

a)9.   Why are my high frequencies 'bright' or 'harsh' since running Audyssey? 

I like the idea of covering all the furniture with blankets before the EQ but is it not actually changing the room into something it truly isn't?
Would not a more accurate way be to place people in the seats and do the measurements, at least the room would be more truthful....

I just wonder with blankets everywhere is a bit like installing acoustic treatment to the room just for the EQ then after its saved removing them.rolleyes.gif

 

One should calibrate the room as it is going to be used. But in the case history mentioned here, the post-Audyssey result was unlistenable-to for the OP - too harsh. This is an outlier case and should not be regarded as SOP.  It's something to try when all the SOP stuff has failed IMO.

post #65217 of 70900
If the mic is too close to a couch or pillows during calibration, the treble will be diminished on input. thus Audyssey will compensate raising the high frequencies leading to a bright if not harsh sound. Best to keep mic 10" or more away from absorbers.
post #65218 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by resqguy View Post

I was looking for the list of equipment with Audyssey technology and can't find it. The links to the pages that Google produced on the Audyssey site are all stale. The Audyssey Blog is also gone. Does anyone have a fairly recent list that they can post?

 

What specifically do you want to know? I think it would help if you said what your AVR budget was, then we could recommend various units that had Audyssey. Also, you need to understand that Audyssey is actually 4 different 'flavours' of the basic underlying technology.  They are MultEQ 2EQ, MultEQ, MultEQ XT and MultEQ XT32. XT32 is the best version and, if possible, the one to aim for. The differences between the versions are explained in this FAQ answer:

 

h)2.   What is the difference between the various versions of MultEQ?

 

Many of the veterans of this thread believe that XT32 is the only version that really does what one would hope that it would do. 2EQ is generally pretty useless as it doesn't EQ the sub at all, which is where EQ is needed most. MultEQ seems to have pretty much disappeared these days. XT is common but has substantial failings when compared with XT32 - the most significant being that the filter resolution is substantially lower both for the subs and the satellites, and - perhaps most important of all - it has recently emerged that XT has the potential to do more harm than good in the upper frequency range of its correction.

 

So, tell us your budget and any preferences you have for one brand over another. Basically, you are looking at Onkyo and Denon IMO - there are equal numbers of both represented in the thread and the common view has always been that neither is significantly superior to the other, just different, and sometimes the differences are important and sometimes not, but they are mainly in areas unrelated to sound quality.

post #65219 of 70900
I am thinking about transitioning from a 5.1 system to a 7.1, with front heights. I am trying to get a bigger front soundstage for sporting events. Someone told me that adding heights made a world of difference in sporting events. So, my home theater room is relatively narrow and long (27x13 with a roof that slopes from 13' to 8'). My front speakers are on pedestals that sit outside of bookshelves so, it looks like this S----bookshelf----TV on wide stand
bookshelf----S. I would like to avoid mounting some speakers on the walls and running wires up the wall (it is a block wall, so running wires is problematic). So, can I place the "height" speakers on top of the bookshelves that sit to the inside of the the front speakers? They will probably sit 1' to 2' to the inside of the front speaker.

Thanks
post #65220 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallen234 View Post

I am thinking about transitioning from a 5.1 system to a 7.1, with front heights. I am trying to get a bigger front soundstage for sporting events. Someone told me that adding heights made a world of difference in sporting events. So, my home theater room is relatively narrow and long (27x13 with a roof that slopes from 13' to 8'). My front speakers are on pedestals that sit outside of bookshelves so, it looks like this S----bookshelf----TV on wide stand
bookshelf----S. I would like to avoid mounting some speakers on the walls and running wires up the wall (it is a block wall, so running wires is problematic). So, can I place the "height" speakers on top of the bookshelves that sit to the inside of the the front speakers? They will probably sit 1' to 2' to the inside of the front speaker.

Thanks



You have some leeway when using Dolby PLIIZ - seems like placing your heights on top of your bookshelves will work. the diagram gives you a sense of an ideal layout -
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