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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2175

post #65221 of 70896

^Hi Tallen. How bout a pic and/or drawing showing seating and speakers in the room? 

 

Not to discount that some folks really like Htz but sometimes we don't stop to consider DSX wides, especially  in a narrow room.  But wides add virtual reflections that  make the room seem much bigger- and simultaneously improve the surround bubble.  The trick is that you can use small bookshelf speakers on stands or on a shelf,  on-wall or even  in-wall speakers-as long as they're about 60 degrees off the centerline irt MLP with tweets about seated ear height.  It is best if they are timbre-matched to the rest of the fronts.

 

You also might want to consider rear surrounds to enhance the bubble to the rear so that will also help you feel that you're more "immersed in the crowd".  Most folks report the more channels the better.  :) 

post #65222 of 70896
Quote:
What specifically do you want to know? I think it would help if you said what your AVR budget was, then we could recommend various units that had Audyssey. Also, you need to understand that Audyssey is actually 4 different 'flavours' of the basic underlying technology. They are MultEQ 2EQ, MultEQ, MultEQ XT and MultEQ XT32. XT32 is the best version and, if possible, the one to aim for. The differences between the versions are explained in this FAQ answer:

I was looking for prepro and receivers with XT32. It's really not a budget issue but more of what options do I really need and want to pay for. Most high end units have tons of things I will never use. So a basic prepro with 7.1/7.2, XT32, PLII, TrueHD, DSD, and HDMI is all I need. Since XT32 is the most important to me I thought I'd look for the least optioned unit with that and go from there. I keep hoping Marantz or Integra will come out with a more basic unit with XT32 for around $2K MSRP.

Right now the best fit looks to be the Onkyo NR818 or the Denon 4311, although I don't really need a receiver. I already have a 5 channel amp. I use an old receiver for the back two channels.
post #65223 of 70896
Marantz has a very fine receiver at the top of the line. Integra has a fine pre/ pro dhc- 60.5.
I have the Marantz 8801 per/pro. It is expensive but very very good.
post #65224 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by resqguy View Post
 
Quote:
What specifically do you want to know? I think it would help if you said what your AVR budget was, then we could recommend various units that had Audyssey. Also, you need to understand that Audyssey is actually 4 different 'flavours' of the basic underlying technology. They are MultEQ 2EQ, MultEQ, MultEQ XT and MultEQ XT32. XT32 is the best version and, if possible, the one to aim for. The differences between the versions are explained in this FAQ answer:

I was looking for prepro and receivers with XT32. It's really not a budget issue but more of what options do I really need and want to pay for. Most high end units have tons of things I will never use. So a basic prepro with 7.1/7.2, XT32, PLII, TrueHD, DSD, and HDMI is all I need. Since XT32 is the most important to me I thought I'd look for the least optioned unit with that and go from there. I keep hoping Marantz or Integra will come out with a more basic unit with XT32 for around $2K MSRP.

Right now the best fit looks to be the Onkyo NR818 or the Denon 4311, although I don't really need a receiver. I already have a 5 channel amp. I use an old receiver for the back two channels.

 

If budget isn't an issue, then you would do best by going for any unit that had XT32. If you want to use it as a prepro with the 5 channel amp, then make sure it has preouts.  Both the units you mention are good choices, but be aware that the 818 has XT32 but does not have SubEQ HT. SubEQ HT is the feature that lets Audyssey handle two subs better by measuring distances and levels for each sub independently and then EQ-ing them together as a pair (thus taking into account their interaction). If you have only one sub, SubEQ is irrelevant. If you have, or intend to have, two subs, then if they are identical, and located equidistant from the MLP, SUBEQ also doesn't really matter because the levels and distances will be the same for both subs anyway.  The 818 is the cheapest entry into the world of XT32 AFAIK. It also has preouts. The 818 can be had for less than $1,000.

post #65225 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by resqguy View Post


I was looking for prepro and receivers with XT32. It's really not a budget issue but more of what options do I really need and want to pay for. Most high end units have tons of things I will never use. So a basic prepro with 7.1/7.2, XT32, PLII, TrueHD, DSD, and HDMI is all I need. Since XT32 is the most important to me I thought I'd look for the least optioned unit with that and go from there. I keep hoping Marantz or Integra will come out with a more basic unit with XT32 for around $2K MSRP.

Right now the best fit looks to be the Onkyo NR818 or the Denon 4311, although I don't really need a receiver. I already have a 5 channel amp. I use an old receiver for the back two channels.

Good thinking-XT32 is for sure what you're looking for. Unfortunately currently one must pay WAY more for an XT32 pre/pro vs an AVR. 

 

The 818 is a great value especially if you don't need SubEQHT tho I'm not certain of its rep regarding reliability.  The 4311 is rock solid and an amazing value, if you can still find one. 

 

The very current Denon AVR X4000 is also well within your price range, and I believe the flagship AVR 4520-you'll be pleasantly surprised on the discount you can get.  SO...

 

I highly recommend you contact jdsmoothie who is a great resource here on the threads, is very familiar with the models and features available and can offer you great AVS discount pricing:

See his contact info in his sig:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1274153/the-official-denon-avr-4311ci-avr-a100-thread-no-price-talk/22500#post_23781333

post #65226 of 70896
What are some other recommendations when couch cushions are nearly as high as ear level, as far as mic position goes? I'm concerned enough about this that I'm considering a smaller and lower couch. My mic was only a few inches away from the cushions for 4 of my measurements. Thanks guys.
post #65227 of 70896
Should not have to get a new couch. Just take measurements 10" from couch. It will sound fine. Make sure your center is not blocked from the mic's view . With towers going high a bit is a good choice. Bang a boom mic as described in the FAQ is essential .
post #65228 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

Should not have to get a new couch. Just take measurements 10" from couch. It will sound fine. Make sure your center is not blocked from the mic's view . With towers going high a bit is a good choice. Bang a boom mic as described in the FAQ is essential .



Hey JM, nothing was blocked and I'm using a dedicated stand with a boom. But if I want my mic at ear level it's close to the cushions.
post #65229 of 70896
Distance from couch trumps ear level . Varying level of mic for towers is good thing. Just go diagonally up and out from the couch. Be sure to do one measurement from behind and 10" above the couch. the FAQ has good positions.


The couch should be at least two feet from the rear wall.

Joel
post #65230 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

Distance from couch trumps ear level . Varying level of mic for towers is good thing. Just go diagonally up and out from the couch. Be sure to do one measurement from behind and 10" above the couch. the FAQ has good positions.


The couch should be at least two feet from the rear wall.

Joel



Joel, I will go back and review the F&Q, thanks.
post #65231 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

What are some other recommendations when couch cushions are nearly as high as ear level, as far as mic position goes? I'm concerned enough about this that I'm considering a smaller and lower couch. My mic was only a few inches away from the cushions for 4 of my measurements. Thanks guys.

Comfynumb take something heavy like say a 5lb weight and wrap in a cloth to weigh the main listening position down an inch or two as it will give the mic additional clearance allowing you to use anywhere from 9-8 inches, which will in turn give you a more correct setting for distance but 10" will be fine if need be. Also for last two positions 7&8 use the Audyssey lay out but try moving the mic up an extra an inch or two more above the back of the couch ( this can be close to the number one mic positioning) I've found this better integrates the total calibration after many runs as it creates a better defined sound field. One more tip is to check the levels and distance before the full calibration ,just put the mic in the MLP run the sweep for all speakers( then calculate) to see if the mic is centered and if not adjust the mic right or left, forward or back to get as good a level and distance and only repeat just the MLP ( position one) till satisfied , this will save time from running the full calibration only to notice that one of the mains is a decibel or so louder or the distance is offset by an inch or so for the mains. This of course is assuming that your mains and MLP or set up to where your head is centered or close to it wink.gif

Have fun my friend as an effort to get a good run of Audyssey pays off in spades and will not only sound good for movies but music as well when done right smile.gif
post #65232 of 70896
Has anyone asked whether the cushions can be removed?. Seems like there are three choices:

1. Keep the mic at ear level, but move it forward so there is at least 10" clearance from the cushions.
2. Keep the mic at the MLP, but raise it higher so that it clears the top of the cushions.
3. Remove the cushions, and keep the mic at the MLP at ear height.

Based on my experience, option 3 produces the best results, both as measured by REW, and by listening tests. Of course, if the cushions cannot be removed, we are back to the first two options.
post #65233 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Comfynumb take something heavy like say a 5lb weight and wrap in a cloth to weigh the main listening position down an inch or two as it will give the mic additional clearance allowing you to use anywhere from 9-8 inches, which will in turn give you a more correct setting for distance but 10" will be fine if need be. Also for last two positions 7&8 use the Audyssey lay out but try moving the mic up an extra an inch or two more above the back of the couch ( this can be close to the number one mic positioning) I've found this better integrates the total calibration after many runs as it creates a better defined sound field. One more tip is to check the levels and distance before the full calibration ,just put the mic in the MLP run the sweep for all speakers( then calculate) to see if the mic is centered and if not adjust the mic right or left, forward or back to get as good a level and distance and only repeat just the MLP ( position one) till satisfied , this will save time from running the full calibration only to notice that one of the mains is a decibel or so louder or the distance is offset by an inch or so for the mains. This of course is assuming that your mains and MLP or set up to where your head is centered or close to it wink.gif

Have fun my friend as an effort to get a good run of Audyssey pays off in spades and will not only sound good for movies but music as well when done right smile.gif



Hi, I actually sat on the couch and had someone put the mic exactly at ear level smack in middle of my head. This was a couple of inches above the back of the couch. Are you saying move it vertically up 8 or 9" from that point or forward? Where it got a little close was the 7 & 8 mic positions. Don't get me wrong this was my best effort yet and sounds very good to me. Thanks AF.
Edited by comfynumb - 9/28/13 at 4:42pm
post #65234 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

What are some other recommendations when couch cushions are nearly as high as ear level, as far as mic position goes? I'm concerned enough about this that I'm considering a smaller and lower couch. My mic was only a few inches away from the cushions for 4 of my measurements. Thanks guys.

You've been given some excellent suggestions as to how to attain a better calibration given your furniture.  Many folks have tall cushions and recliner backs as they're so comfy and I hope the tips work for you. 

 

I decided to not allow my comfy seating to block my ears from the surrounds, especially as I enjoy MC music and have direst-firing surrounds at about 110 degrees.  I modified the back of my Human Touch Zero Gravity MLP recliner so it was not extending up over my head.

Out with the old:

 

In with the new:

The photos don't display it well but the back of the seat now comes up only to my shoulders and the pillow has been reshaped  and mounted so it supports my neck and head but does not block my ears.   It's every bit  as comfy and it opened up the sound significantly, as predicted by the A/B listening tests I did before I decided to go ahead with it. YMMV :)

post #65235 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Hi, I actually sat on the couch and had someone put the mic exactly at ear level smack in middle of my head. This was a couple of inches above the back of the couch. Are you saying move it vertically up 8 or 9" from that point or forward? Where it got a little close was the 7 & 8 mic positions. Don't get me wrong this was my best effort yet and sounds very good to me. Thanks AF.
If you like the way it is now, I suggest you relax and listen, and enjoy your system
post #65236 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Hi, I actually sat on the couch and had someone put the mic exactly at ear level smack in middle of my head. This was a couple of inches above the back of the couch. Are you saying move it vertically up 8 or 9" from that point or forward? Where it got a little close was the 7 & 8 mic positions. Don't get me wrong this was my best effort yet and sounds very good to me. Thanks AF.


As for the 8-9" I meant from the couch cushions, but sounds like you have done enough and as the other post suggest, kick back and enjoy . Trust me its not the first or last run and besides you need to get a feel for what that new beastie is bringing to the table and oh yeah crank that baby to loosen the s drivers, Man! it took me 3 months to get my new sub fully loosened up but when it did eek.gifbiggrin.gif
post #65237 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

As for the 8-9" I meant from the couch cushions, but sounds like you have done enough and as the other post suggest, kick back and enjoy . Trust me its not the first or last run and besides you need to get a feel for what that new beastie is bringing to the table and oh yeah crank that baby to loosen the s drivers, Man! it took me 3 months to get my new sub fully loosened up but when it did eek.gifbiggrin.gif



Yes I think I did things about right this time. I had almost no bass when I first hooked it up eek.gif but now it's starting to sound good smile.gif
post #65238 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

Should not have to get a new couch. Just take measurements 10" from couch. It will sound fine. Make sure your center is not blocked from the mic's view . With towers going high a bit is a good choice. Bang a boom mic as described in the FAQ is essential .



Hey JM, nothing was blocked and I'm using a dedicated stand with a boom. But if I want my mic at ear level it's close to the cushions.

 

Move the mic so that it remains at ear level but is about 10-12 inches from the cushions. If your chairs recline, recline them so the tip of the mic is higher than the chair back. If the chairs are upholstered, as opposed to leather, the impact of reflections on the mic is much diminished anyway.  If all that is impossible, put a thick towel over the back of the chair when measuring. I know this is contrary to the advice that the room must be in the exact state during measuring as it is during listening, but in this instance, that is impossible anyway, as your head will be where the mic is when you are listening. Using a thick towel to prevent reflections reaching the mic will be more beneficial (by getting rid of those undesirable reflections) than following the diktat to the letter IMO, in this case. Generally though, keeping the mic about a foot away from the chair back will do the job - even if it means the mic is not quite exactly where your head would be when listening. Sometimes, in a less than ideal world, one has to choose the lesser of two evils when making compromises.

 

The above in no way contradicts the general advice that one should not remove coffee tables or large items for the measurements and then replace them afterwards, etc.

post #65239 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

What are some other recommendations when couch cushions are nearly as high as ear level, as far as mic position goes? I'm concerned enough about this that I'm considering a smaller and lower couch. My mic was only a few inches away from the cushions for 4 of my measurements. Thanks guys.

You've been given some excellent suggestions as to how to attain a better calibration given your furniture.  Many folks have tall cushions and recliner backs as they're so comfy and I hope the tips work for you. 

 

I decided to not allow my comfy seating to block my ears from the surrounds, especially as I enjoy MC music and have direst-firing surrounds at about 110 degrees.  I modified the back of my Human Touch Zero Gravity MLP recliner so it was not extending up over my head.

Out with the old:

 

In with the new:

The photos don't display it well but the back of the seat now comes up only to my shoulders and the pillow has been reshaped  and mounted so it supports my neck and head but does not block my ears.   It's every bit  as comfy and it opened up the sound significantly, as predicted by the A/B listening tests I did before I decided to go ahead with it. YMMV :)

 

I always love the pics of your room. There is just no doubting, at all, which seat is yours!  :)

post #65240 of 70896

^He-he.  Yup. 90% of the time I'm the only one in there but whenever there's guests I let them fight over the chair. I wanted to put a matching recliner right next to it but the wife rejected that idea based on some other aesthetic.   Besides, she enjoys lying on the couch during movies.

post #65241 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Move the mic so that it remains at ear level but is about 10-12 inches from the cushions. If your chairs recline, recline them so the tip of the mic is higher than the chair back. If the chairs are upholstered, as opposed to leather, the impact of reflections on the mic is much diminished anyway.  If all that is impossible, put a thick towel over the back of the chair when measuring. I know this is contrary to the advice that the room must be in the exact state during measuring as it is during listening, but in this instance, that is impossible anyway, as your head will be where the mic is when you are listening. Using a thick towel to prevent reflections reaching the mic will be more beneficial (by getting rid of those undesirable reflections) than following the diktat to the letter IMO, in this case. Generally though, keeping the mic about a foot away from the chair back will do the job - even if it means the mic is not quite exactly where your head would be when listening. Sometimes, in a less than ideal world, one has to choose the lesser of two evils when making compromises.

The above in no way contradicts the general advice that one should not remove coffee tables or large items for the measurements and then replace them afterwards, etc.



Thanks for clarifying. I was a little too close to the cushions with my first 3 positions I guess. They were approx 3" above the cushions and 5" in front of them. 7 & 8 were barely above the back of the couch maybe an inch. It sounds very good but I'm thinking it can sound better. To my ear it lacks a little mid-bass.
post #65242 of 70896
This is starting to sound a little OCD to me. Luv it! biggrin.gif
post #65243 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

This is starting to sound a little OCD to me. Luv it! biggrin.gif



Jerry, you have no idea, when there is something "worth it" I will try every avenue to get what I want, in this case the best sound possible biggrin.gif
This said I need to take a step back and process my "new" sound.
post #65244 of 70896
Time for REW to adjust sub distance I think.


J
post #65245 of 70896
I'm resisting REW but my efforts are futile biggrin.gif
post #65246 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 

^He-he.  Yup. 90% of the time I'm the only one in there but whenever there's guests I let them fight over the chair. I wanted to put a matching recliner right next to it but the wife rejected that idea based on some other aesthetic.   Besides, she enjoys lying on the couch during movies.

 

Which, of course, is precisely why we are able to optimise sound for the MLP. :)  "Every seat is a good seat"?  Pah! 

post #65247 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Move the mic so that it remains at ear level but is about 10-12 inches from the cushions. If your chairs recline, recline them so the tip of the mic is higher than the chair back. If the chairs are upholstered, as opposed to leather, the impact of reflections on the mic is much diminished anyway.  If all that is impossible, put a thick towel over the back of the chair when measuring. I know this is contrary to the advice that the room must be in the exact state during measuring as it is during listening, but in this instance, that is impossible anyway, as your head will be where the mic is when you are listening. Using a thick towel to prevent reflections reaching the mic will be more beneficial (by getting rid of those undesirable reflections) than following the diktat to the letter IMO, in this case. Generally though, keeping the mic about a foot away from the chair back will do the job - even if it means the mic is not quite exactly where your head would be when listening. Sometimes, in a less than ideal world, one has to choose the lesser of two evils when making compromises.

The above in no way contradicts the general advice that one should not remove coffee tables or large items for the measurements and then replace them afterwards, etc.



Thanks for clarifying. I was a little too close to the cushions with my first 3 positions I guess. They were approx 3" above the cushions and 5" in front of them. 7 & 8 were barely above the back of the couch maybe an inch. It sounds very good but I'm thinking it can sound better. To my ear it lacks a little mid-bass.

 

Run another cal with the slightly different mic positions suggested in the last several posts and see if you can improve it. Remember that with both Denon and Onkyo units, you can store the last calibration, so you can easily go back to it if the new one disappoints:

 

a)6.   Is it possible to save and recall an Audyssey MultEQ calibration?

post #65248 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

This is starting to sound a little OCD to me. Luv it! biggrin.gif

 

LOL!  Yes, I do think that, in general, there is a lot of overthinking that goes on wrt to mic placements. I am sure it isn’t really necessary to have millimetre-precise positions in order to get an excellent result. I guess if it is relatively easy to be very precise, then one may as well do it as not do it - but then we see people agonising over whether to move the mic half an inch this way or half an inch that way. As I have often said wrt to my own listening circumstances - I do not have my head in a vise (or 'vice' as we Limeys spell it) so pin-point precision of the mic isn't something I worry too much about. I think the general principles of mic placement have a bigger bearing on results - ie whether to measure a tight spot around the MLP, or a broader area, or where to place the mic in a multi-row, split-level theatre and so on.  HST, we certainly don't want to encourage sloppiness, so if one is going to err, it is perhaps better to err on the side of more precision than less.

post #65249 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm resisting REW but my efforts are futile biggrin.gif

 

Oh don't resist. The $100 investment to get REW-ing is hugely worthwhile in the pursuit of better sound. There is nothing as good as measuring the room and instantly seeing the results in graphic form, showing you exactly where you need to concentrate future efforts. Remember, the room is the biggest influence on the sound you hear, so that $100 investment is way, way, way more useful than thousands of dollars spent 'upgrading' amps, AVRs, DACs, BD Players etc etc.  The HDMI/USB REW thread is a great place to start, along with downloading and studying Jerry's fantastic Guide to getting started (linked in his (and my) sig). Read the Guide and you'll see it isn't such a daunting task as it might at first appear.

 

(The $100 is the cost of a calibrated mic - REW is free)

post #65250 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Run another cal with the slightly different mic positions suggested in the last several posts and see if you can improve it. Remember that with both Denon and Onkyo units, you can store the last calibration, so you can easily go back to it if the new one disappoints:

a)6.   Is it possible to save and recall an Audyssey MultEQ calibration?



Thanks. I have to learn how to save these from my Marantz, it doesn't sound very hard. Although my 4 runs on Friday sounded very similar while varying mic positions from a tight pattern and broadening them by a foot or so. Audyssey came up with exactly the same distances and XO points each time. I'm going to look into saving my calibrations and REW this week. One thing I know is my room needs some treatments.
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