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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2181

post #65401 of 70890
Here is my first REW test. It has before and after XT32 close pattern for MLP.

Comments welcome.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/70204-my-first-test-comments-welcome.html
post #65402 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

Here is my first REW test. It has before and after XT32 close pattern for MLP.

Comments welcome.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/70204-my-first-test-comments-welcome.html

Why not post in the existing REW thread where you will get the feedback and assistance you might need?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/4880_20#post_23802336
post #65403 of 70890
sorry about that - i will fix now
post #65404 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Well REW certainly isn't obligatory. It depends where you want to go and how much time you want to invest to get the last ounce of performance out of your room and your system. Its only a $100 investment (for the mic) and the learning curve is much shorter since Jerry published his excellent Guide. 

But I would only suggest REW if you are also prepared to make changes. It's no use measuring and highlighting problems unless you intend to fix the problems you have identified. This can be as simple as relocating speakers and subs or as complex as treating the room acoustically. It is easy to fall into the trap of chasing ever smaller issues too (graphitis nervosa) but this can be controlled with help from the REW Anonymous Support Group ("My name is John and I am an audioholic...").

Personally, learning to use REW was one of the best decisions I have made in the pursuit of better SQ, but I have a dedicated room, where WAF is not an issue. HST, it is also a very small and difficult room, but with REW and the acoustic panels plus Audyssey XT32/Pro and a lot of help from AVS members (you know who you are) I have managed to get terrific SQ.



Keith they say admitting the problem you have is the the first step smile.gif I'm about ready to take it to the next level, as soon as I add the second sub, I know I'm in good hands. I'd like to treat my walls somewhat, because I understand that would probably be the biggest improvement I could make, plus I have a GF that's into sound, and would jump at the chance to design some cool acoustic panels. She has a graphic arts background and it would be better than me making them because I'd make them all look like the members of Pink Floyd or bricks from the wall eek.gif

 

That GF is a keeper!!! :)

post #65405 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That GF is a keeper!!! smile.gif



Yes she is! Finally I have someone in my life that I'm on the same page with and. It's a good feeling smile.gif
post #65406 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That GF is a keeper!!! smile.gif



Yes she is! Finally I have someone in my life that I'm on the same page with and. It's a good feeling smile.gif

 

Yes, it is. I am in a similar position....

post #65407 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes, it is. I am in a similar position....



smile.gif
post #65408 of 70890
Sub 1 & Sub 2 trims on the AVR Q?

I seem to be getting quite different sub trims, I do know the FAQ on the subject so I don't need to be pointed there thanks.......

I have four SVS SB13 Ultras up the front of the room and four Velodyne 10" in the rear of the room.

Im setting the front Sub1 on my Integra DTR-70.4 to 78db at the MLP (1st mic position) and then Sub 2 rears also to 78db.
After running XT32 the level results are Sub 1, -5db and Sub 2, -11db.

Since Im setting both front and rear subs up to 78db at the MLP on 1st mic setting Im surprised that Sub 2 is ending up at -11db, I would have thought it would be closer to Sub 1 trim.
I know Audyssey has set them both at 75db and the front and rear subs sound fantastic and really beautifully integrated, but does this really matter having both trims so different in the AVR?

Is it still safe with Sub 2 close the extreme of - 11db?
post #65409 of 70890
Just curious, Murray, if you have two pairs of four subs on the two sub channels for the AVR, how are you setting the individual levels of the subs within each pair?

I have a similar situation, although not as many subs. I have two subs in front and two in the rear, each pair on separate sub channels, similar to your setup. Before I run Audyssey, I go to a considerable amount of trouble to make sure all the subs are gain matched with each other. When that process has completed, I run the Audyssey calibration, but I completely skip the Audyssey sub level-matching step because I don't want to disturb the gain matching. When the califration has completed, the sub trim in the rear sub channel is 5dB lower than the trim on the front channel, but that is expected, since the rear subs are closer to the MLP. The gain-matching process ensures that no single sub is being asked to "do more work" than any other sub, which results in more headroom without a single sub being over-driven to the point of distortion.

I'm wondering if you gain-match the subs as well? If not, there is a write-up on the procedure I can point you to.
post #65410 of 70890
Hi Jerry

I don't gain match at all, yet I know the procedure well.

I only level match.
My front four SVS SB13-Ultras are in pairs 1/4 in from the side walls, they have digital volume controls which are all set to the same level.
My rear four Velodyne are in pairs 1/4 in from the side walls, they are digital volume controls which are all set to the same level.

Audyssey then level matches the front subs to the rear subs at the MLP which I set to 78db.

Is -11db on Sub 2 of the AVR (Velodynes) risky?

If so I could add +5db to Sub 2 on the AVR and lower -5db on the Velodyne amp, necessary or not?
post #65411 of 70890

^Chris K. has reiterated endlessly that as long as the sub trim is not maxed, it is just fine.  And I can't think of any advantage to having your sub 1 and sub 2 trims more closely matched. Although one downside I experienced with a very neg trim was my Velo subs wouldn't wake up from standby.

 

IME you have to override the recommended settings for your subs' vol controls in the sub volume measurement step in order to avoid significantly negative sub ch trims in the AVR.  It's as though Audyssey doesn't expect that playing two subs at equal volume might just be louder than either one alone.  :confused:    The next calibration you could adjust the Velo vol controls down a bit. 

 

But then again, by then you may have read Keith's sig and decided to add a few more subs. ;) 

post #65412 of 70890
I understand now, Murray. With the electronic gain controls all set the same, you essentially have gain-matched the subs in the group. I agree with SoM, there is nothing inherently wrong with a -11 trim. However, if it bothers you, dial that sub group's gain setting back a few notches before the next calibration. In the meantime, I don't think any action is required.

We haven't heard from you in a while . How is the home theater sounding? What do your guests think of it?
post #65413 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I understand now, Murray. With the electronic gain controls all set the same, you essentially have gain-matched the subs in the group. I agree with SoM, there is nothing inherently wrong with a -11 trim. However, if it bothers you, dial that sub group's gain setting back a few notches before the next calibration. In the meantime, I don't think any action is required.

We haven't heard from you in a while . How is the home theater sounding? What do your guests think of it?

Ok that's all good then. There is so much talk re the +- 3db that I wasn't sure being so low on Sub 2 at -11db maybe a bad thing. I certainly have no problem with the rear subs waking up on -11db, the rear sub amps in my rack are constantly on throughout a movie.

Last week I went 11.2 and with all the recent acoustic treatments the room sounds amazing. The acoustic treatment I added to the ceiling and walls did one of the greatest improvements since I started posting on this thread. I shudder with the warmth and depth of the bass, its so smooth and rich. The dialog is beautiful deep and rich since I reversed the three front speakers, the tweeters are now inline with the ear in the centre row.

I am over the moon, I couldn't wish for anything more in vision and sound!cool.gif

Ive come along on this journey......
post #65414 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Just curious, Murray, if you have two pairs of four subs on the two sub channels for the AVR, how are you setting the individual levels of the subs within each pair?

I have a similar situation, although not as many subs. I have two subs in front and two in the rear, each pair on separate sub channels, similar to your setup. Before I run Audyssey, I go to a considerable amount of trouble to make sure all the subs are gain matched with each other. When that process has completed, I run the Audyssey calibration, but I completely skip the Audyssey sub level-matching step because I don't want to disturb the gain matching. When the califration has completed, the sub trim in the rear sub channel is 5dB lower than the trim on the front channel, but that is expected, since the rear subs are closer to the MLP. The gain-matching process ensures that no single sub is being asked to "do more work" than any other sub, which results in more headroom without a single sub being over-driven to the point of distortion.

I'm wondering if you gain-match the subs as well? If not, there is a write-up on the procedure I can point you to.

Jerry

If you skip level matching to 75db for Audyssey for sub 1 and 2, out of interest what are your readings on XT32 for sub 1 and sub 2 before you move onto starting the calibration.
What does the Audyssey mic read for sun 1 and sub 2?
post #65415 of 70890
Has anyone tried using just wide dispersion horn tweeters for their front high and wide channels? Will Audyssey setup even finish correctly? How much audio information will I be losing in doing this?

What say you!

All these fun questions will be answered Thursday when I get them. lol...
post #65416 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Jerry

If you skip level matching to 75db for Audyssey for sub 1 and 2, out of interest what are your readings on XT32 for sub 1 and sub 2 before you move onto starting the calibration.
What does the Audyssey mic read for sun 1 and sub 2?

IIRC, sub1 reads 70dB, and sub2 reads 74dB. After the calibration, sub1 trim is -.5, and sub2 trim is -5. Recall, the subs on sub2 are close (3.9'), compared with the subs on sub1 (11.9').
post #65417 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Hi Jerry

I don't gain match at all, yet I know the procedure well.

I only level match.
My front four SVS SB13-Ultras are in pairs 1/4 in from the side walls, they have digital volume controls which are all set to the same level.
My rear four Velodyne are in pairs 1/4 in from the side walls, they are digital volume controls which are all set to the same level.

Audyssey then level matches the front subs to the rear subs at the MLP which I set to 78db.

Is -11db on Sub 2 of the AVR (Velodynes) risky?

If so I could add +5db to Sub 2 on the AVR and lower -5db on the Velodyne amp, necessary or not?

 

I’d gain match them personally (which it seems you are anyway). If they still come in at -5 and -11, I'd then split the difference to -8dB all round and consider it a done deal.

post #65418 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 

^Chris K. has reiterated endlessly that as long as the sub trim is not maxed, it is just fine.  

 

He has - but he's wrong ;)

 

Or, to put it a better way, he's only thinking in terms of Audyssey, as he usually does. In those terms, he is right. Thinking more holistically, he's wrong.

post #65419 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I’d gain match them personally (which it seems you are anyway). If they still come in at -5 and -11, I'd then split the difference to -8dB all round and consider it a done deal.

Im not sure what you mean here Keith, can you explain?

Are you saying what I did earlier, raise the trim on the AVR on Sub 2 only, and lower the amp level of the rear Velodyne subs.
post #65420 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by porschedrifter View Post

Has anyone tried using just wide dispersion horn tweeters for their front high and wide channels? Will Audyssey setup even finish correctly? How much audio information will I be losing in doing this?

What say you!

All these fun questions will be answered Thursday when I get them. lol...
There is nothing inherent in the characteristics of a wide dispersion horn tweeter that would prevent Audyssey from performing a calibration.


Max
post #65421 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I’d gain match them personally (which it seems you are anyway). If they still come in at -5 and -11, I'd then split the difference to -8dB all round and consider it a done deal.

Im not sure what you mean here Keith, can you explain?

Are you saying what I did earlier, raise the trim on the AVR on Sub 2 only, and lower the amp level of the rear Velodyne subs.

 

It's in the FAQ:

 

f)8.    How does Audyssey handle complex multiple subwoofer setups?

 

 

post #65422 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View PostHe has - but he's wrong ;)

Or, to put it a better way, he's only thinking in terms of Audyssey, as he usually does. In those terms, he is right. Thinking more holistically, he's wrong.

Keith, you've lost me here.  Like the OP, I'm unclear as to what is wrong with my post or my citing Chris' advice in this instance, wholistically or otherwise.   What is it in that FAQ answer that indicates how my post (and my quoting Chris) is wrong in this instance? 

 

More importantly, is there something you'd have the OP do differently irt his sub set up?

post #65423 of 70890
My setup includes two rows of 3 theater seats. The back row is on a riser. How would you recommend placing the microphone for calibration ?

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
post #65424 of 70890
post #65425 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

You should read the FAQ:

[URL=]d)6. I have two rows of seats at different heights. What's the best mic placement?[/URL]

D'oh. Thanks. I was browsing on my phone. Will read this this now.
post #65426 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by porschedrifter View Post

Has anyone tried using just wide dispersion horn tweeters for their front high and wide channels? Will Audyssey setup even finish correctly? How much audio information will I be losing in doing this?

What say you!

All these fun questions will be answered Thursday when I get them. lol...

You COULD just use a horn and lose out on whatever part of the frequency response is below where the compression driver's response falls off, or you could something like a coaxial speaker which can still be put into a small footprint, have similar dispersion pattern, and perform all the way down to where you want your sub system to pick up the rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Keith, you've lost me here.  Like the OP, I'm unclear as to what is wrong with my post or my citing Chris' advice in this instance, wholistically or otherwise.   What is it in that FAQ answer that indicates how my post (and my quoting Chris) is wrong in this instance? 

More importantly, is there something you'd have the OP do differently irt his sub set up?

I think wholistically the statement is incorrect due to the fact that Chris K, as Keith pointed out said Audyssey would "be ok" but the rest of the system may not. Perfect example was the poster that mentioned at that low of a signal level his subs wouldn't "wake-up" when needed. Chris made NO mention of gain structure in his statement and that could be an even larger problem if the signal coming from the unit is so low, you aren't able to drive your amp to its full potential, leaving performance you really DO have off the table.
post #65427 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

 Chris made NO mention of gain structure in his statement and that could be an even larger problem if the signal coming from the unit is so low, you aren't able to drive your amp to its full potential, leaving performance you really DO have off the table.

Is the OP not driving the dual Velo sub amps to "full potential" because of a trim of -11?  Hmmm...unlikely that is something to worry about in the OP's setup, but yours is an interesting point. 

 

And now that you mention it, there's a post on the Velodyne thread in which their CS stated that a good general guideline is to adjust the sub volumes so Autosetup results in the sub ch trim between +5 and -5. http://www.avsforum.com/t/304306/offical-velodyne-support-thread/8970#post_23283883

post #65428 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Is the OP not driving the dual Velo sub amps to "full potential" because of a trim of -11?  Hmmm...unlikely that is something to worry about in the OP's setup, but yours is an interesting point. 

And now that you mention it, there's a post on the Velodyne thread in which their CS stated that a good general guideline is to adjust the sub volumes so Autosetup results in the sub ch trim between +5 and -5. http://www.avsforum.com/t/304306/offical-velodyne-support-thread/8970#post_23283883

Guys just so you all understand....

Im running my Velodyne SMS-1 which EQs the pair of SC-1250 Velodyne amps.
The SMS-1 is set with a volume of +15db and each SC-1250 amp is set to +7db so I would say I have a total of +22db driving my four rear Velodyne passive subs.

This comes to a total of 78dbs when it is read on Audyssey 1st mic postion, the same as the front subs.
after the ET32 the trim level on the AVR for sub 2 is -11db, sub 1 is -5db.

I don't have any issues with the rear subs waking up, all I ever wanted to know does this matter that the AVR is set so low on sub 2 or not. Many said no it doesn't some seem to differ????

Does someone want to jump in and confirm its ok for me to just leave sub 2 set to -11db or not. I cant be bothered changing this unless Im doing some damage as it is...... I don't need to change it for looks or anything....
post #65429 of 70890
I thought you had already received several responses, including one from me, that a -11 trim should not be a cause for any concern.
post #65430 of 70890
Seriously. You are happy and it sounds good and it all works! What more could you ask for, leave well enough alone!
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