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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2193

post #65761 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

WRT to the prospective move - that will be great news if you can find somewhere suitable which allows you to release your inner HT-monster. I see a Submersive or two in your future!

Thanks. If a Submersive (or two) is in my future, it's in the very very distant future. After buying a new house and paying for daycare costs for two wee ones we will be pretty cash poor for the next few years. I will be channeling my bargain hunter skills and scoping local Craigslist for used deals; thankfully down here in the vast, affluent megalopolis of southern California there is a plethora of used gear available. I will likely decide to simply forego <25Hz bass proactively and concentrate on getting 2-3 decent, inexpensive subs and optimizing for flat (if not ultra deep) response in the near term.

At least San Diego homes, being in a major earthquake zone, are resistant to a bit of gentle shaking wink.gifbiggrin.gif

Quote:
Incidentally, I have a tip for all the members with babies and young children. Get them used to a whole lot of serious noise and bass from the earliest possible age!

I'm more worried about the wife than the kids in this respect biggrin.gif Once they are old enough to enjoy cinematic movies I will indoctrinate them heavily in the HT setup with full bore Disney/Pixar type content. Thankfully many of these "kids" movies have pretty neat soundtracks nowadays so I can at least enjoy my system while watching things like "Kung Fu Panda". Of course, that's still several years away.....
post #65762 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

I have managed to make a cinema with terrific sound and an exceptionally good, big picture. I would never have believed it possible. When the lights go down, and the music starts, and the picture just floats in that black void, it is quite magical. I cannot see the room boundaries because it is so dark and the acoustics make those boundaries disappear sonically too - I could be in a space several times the actual size.

 

I'm sure one of these days we'll get to see some pics of all the recent changes! ;)

I tried. But it is so dark the pics were rubbish. I'll try harder... :)

post #65763 of 70887
Nanny mcphee also scores quite well allegedly wink.gif
post #65764 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

So the question is, do you personally adjust either your bass or treble after XT32's adjustments?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I adjust bass because I find the standard Audyssey curve leaves me with, IMO, anemic bass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Oh for music, I go into the other room and listen to my 20 year old Naim CD player through my 25 year old pure Class A stereo amp/room heater and my 25 year old Rega stereo speakers, no acoustic treatments, no electronic EQ, no worries smile.gif  With music, I am an old-school, dyed in the wool, stereo Philistine smile.gif

I use tone controls to EQ most CDs, some SACDs, and some movies. My basic house curve has the bass end about 10 dB higher than the treble end, and this, indeed, does sound "flat" to me. This is achieved by turning the Marantz controls (affecting the R and L front channels only) to Bass + 6, and turning up the subwoofer up about 7 dB higher than Audyssey does. For solo instruments, or small groups that do not depend on tympani, bass viol, bass drum and other orchestra swelling instruments, I cut the bass back to about Bass + 2 or flat. The same with some brass jazz. For one set of movies -- those of the golden age of multichannel magnetic soundtracks and 70 mm roadshows -- I use even more bass boost ... about 3 or 4 dB more, which comes from a little box my dealer designed and built for me, that operates without hardly any phase shift. The reason for the special EQ for magnetic movies is that the first generation music elements were often recorded with little bass to avoid over-recording in those days, and in the final sweetening of the mix under supervision by the filmmakers bass was added. The BDs and DVDs are often made from the original musical elements, which have the filmmakers' bass boost and dynamic manipulations missing. I put them back, AMAP. A film like Ben-Hur would shake the concrete floor of a theater -- with no subwoofers -- and Lawrence of Arabia didn't sound over bright like it does on the BD. They now sound that way at our house.

In the old days, practically everyone I knew set their bass controls at 2:00 O'clock. Then tone controls on most audiophile equipment were eliminated. Then we looked high and low until we found equipment with tone controls. Then we were the ones who were considered to be Phillistines
post #65765 of 70887
Incidentally, I have a tip for all the members with babies and young children. Get them used to a whole lot of serious noise and bass from the earliest possible age!  I did this with my two and after a while they acclimatised to realistic music SPLs as they were going off to sleep (this was in my pre-HT days). So much so, that if for some reason I was not jamming with a full Duke Ellington orchestra at bedtime, they actually said they couldn't get off to sleep as it was "too quiet".  The Mrs Keith at that time (she has been upgraded) was also remarkably forbearing. The upgraded Mrs Keith is, thankfully able to sleep through an earthquake (literally on one occasion) and my daughters are now grown up and have flown the nest, so - for me at least - it is Reference Level (well just under TBH) at any time of the day or night. Audio nirvana. 
[/quote]

Keith - that is indeed quite funny - surely there must be a place in one of the Audyssey guides for including this nugget.

Batpig - congrats on the arrival of the latest Batpiglet, and yes a new Audyssey measurement is called for as the absorptive qualities of baby diapers will certainly impact the bass frequencies.
post #65766 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post



I use tone controls to EQ most CDs, some SACDs, and some movies. My basic house curve has the bass end about 10 dB higher than the treble end, and this, indeed, does sound "flat" to me. This is achieved by turning the Marantz controls (affecting the R and L front channels only) to Bass + 6, and turning up the subwoofer up about 7 dB higher than Audyssey does. For solo instruments, or small groups that do not depend on tympani, bass viol, bass drum and other orchestra swelling instruments, I cut the bass back to about Bass + 2 or flat. The same with some brass jazz. For one set of movies -- those of the golden age of multichannel magnetic soundtracks and 70 mm roadshows -- I use even more bass boost ... about 3 or 4 dB more, which comes from a little box my dealer designed and built for me, that operates without hardly any phase shift. The reason for the special EQ for magnetic movies is that the first generation music elements were often recorded with little bass to avoid over-recording in those days, and in the final sweetening of the mix under supervision by the filmmakers bass was added. The BDs and DVDs are often made from the original musical elements, which have the filmmakers' bass boost and dynamic manipulations missing. I put them back, AMAP. A film like Ben-Hur would shake the concrete floor of a theater -- with no subwoofers -- and Lawrence of Arabia didn't sound over bright like it does on the BD. They now sound that way at our house.

In the old days, practically everyone I knew set their bass controls at 2:00 O'clock. Then tone controls on most audiophile equipment were eliminated. Then we looked high and low until we found equipment with tone controls. Then we were the ones who were considered to be Phillistines



Good post thanks. I have to recalibrate then because I tried some different CD's today and cranked it up and I'm indeed lacking mid and lower bass. The last time I ran Audyssey I did a one and a half ft pattern around the MLP, I think I'm going to try a more traditional pattern next time. I mean the bass seems a little anemic even running it 6db hot.
post #65767 of 70887
How about this for room treatment? Absorption or diffusion?

post #65768 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

How about this for room treatment? Absorption or diffusion?


Absorption, obviously tongue.gif. If you did some REW measurements you'd probably get some unholy reflections and absorption of your bass. Just for that, I should pull out _our_ toys and measure.....

Don't tempt me to do an A/B with Kobi's electronic bouncy seat...but you've got a headstart on this. How old's your newborn, BTW? Kobi's now five weeks and thinks he can pre-crawl. However, he's deep in an "eeeeehhhhh" phase right now, which kind of screwed up my latest plan to do Audyssey Pro etc. over the weekend due to our little carpet cleaning mishap of moving my speakers. And to date he doesn't like sine sweep test tones. That makes calibration so much fun....
post #65769 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

What Max said about measuring positions.

Sorry then, I misunderstood you. You are saying that the speakers measure the same at the MLP, via your SPL meter, when you have the trims set the same?  But when you set the trims to +8 and -3dB, the SPL meter measurements show this difference?

Just for clarity, can you set the trims to 0dB and measure with the SPL meter. Then set the trims to +8dB and -3dB and measure with the SPL meter again. Then report the results here.  The second reading should be the same as the first + 8dB and -3dB. I am just trying to confirm we fully understand what is happening.

As Max says, if there is an 11dB difference, there is a problem and it needs discovering. Kludging it isn't the best way to proceed. Audyssey is usually very accurate in setting levels and delays (distance) and, given your speaker locations and room characteristics there seems to be a mystery as to why you are getting the readings you are getting.
I reset the denon microprocessor ran Aud again and came up with same results- Actual numbers are +8.5 left; -4 right. Using the spl on my tablet at seating area with left @ +8.5 the spl was reading 87-89 db. The right of -4 was reading 75/76 db. Moving the left down to -4 put me in same measure as right.
Any thoughts, otherwise I'll leave the left manually adjusted
Rt
post #65770 of 70887
My thought is that your receiver is defective.

As a quick test though, can you swap the wires on the back of the receiver and check Audyssey results? For example, swap FR and FL speaker wires on the back of the receiver. Does the problem "follow" the wire or "stick" with the speaker? You can try a similar test with another channel.

Also remember that you only need to run 1 position and let it calculate to check levels (the additional measurements are only to inform the EQ filters and crossovers). Will make tests like this relatively fast.
post #65771 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

My understanding of the tone control situation (i.e. the simple bass/treble adjustments) is that:
...

2. On Onkyo products, you CAN adjust bass/treble tone controls with DEQ engaged, and they remain in effect whether or not DEQ is engaged.

...

But, on the Onkyo 807, the tone controls only control the FL and FR. The center and surrounds are never changed. That makes the tone control useless for everything except 2 channel stereo.
post #65772 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Also remember that you only need to run 1 position and let it calculate to check levels (the additional measurements are only to inform the EQ filters and crossovers). Will make tests like this relatively fast.

 

I have an Integra DHC-80.3 and took advantage of the 1 pt measurement last night prior to doing a full 8 pt XT32 calibration.  I just wanted to confirm that the XO's are not affected by this 1 pt measurement because I had thought that my XO's were changed from my last 8 pt calibration (when I ran the 1 pt) but then when I ran the new 8 pt there was a different set of XO's?! :confused:  I'm guessing I just forgot what my old XO's were but wanted to confirm the XO's are definitely not reported by the AVR in the 1 pt calibration.

post #65773 of 70887
The XO's are impacted by ALL the measurements. It is totally normal to get slightly different XO's depending on how many measurements you do (in addition to variances in the positioning of the mic).
post #65774 of 70887

Ok, thanks bp.  So that means I might not be crazy and the XO's could've changed from my last 8 pt cal to the 1 pt simple cal and then again with a fresh 8 pt cal?  FWIW, I did change furniture and speaker placement between the last 8 pt cal and single pt cal so a change is certainly not out of the question.

post #65775 of 70887
What you say is accurate, but does not mean that you are not also crazy wink.gif
post #65776 of 70887
I should have said this in the posts about my use of tone controls: I get away with using them because I almost never use Dynamic EQ which would turn the tone controls off. For some reason I've only rarely been able to get DEQ to sound good on my system.
post #65777 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Ok, thanks bp.  So that means I might not be crazy and the XO's could've changed from my last 8 pt cal to the 1 pt simple cal and then again with a fresh 8 pt cal?  FWIW, I did change furniture and speaker placement between the last 8 pt cal and single pt cal so a change is certainly not out of the question.

I have this happen to me consistently. If I just do MLP it comes back for my 5.1 (2) setup as 80 Fronts, 80 center, 80 surrounds. If I do the tight cluster of 3 measurements then I get 60,80,60. If I do all 8 measurements and spread out a tad bit more (like 2-3 ft) then I get 80, 90, 80.

I've since just set a general XO at 80 (hoping the 90 doesn't affect the MLP in any meaningful way). I should do the distance sub tweak, but I'm not willing to risk getting graphitis.
post #65778 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post

I should have said this in the posts about my use of tone controls: I get away with using them because I almost never use Dynamic EQ which would turn the tone controls off. For some reason I've only rarely been able to get DEQ to sound good on my system.

I'm curious about trying this. Any idea what part of the FR curve is actually being adjusted when you add a few points to bass and treble on this?
post #65779 of 70887
Paging Jerry. Pre-out measurements of impact of tone controls with / without DEQ engaged requested, stat. smile.gif
post #65780 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Paging Jerry. Pre-out measurements of impact of tone controls with / without DEQ engaged requested, stat. smile.gif

I'm not your measurement b**ch, BP, regardless of how cute the Batpiglett is! wink.gif

Seriously, I can get excited about taking some measurements, but anything that involves manual tone controls makes my skin crawl. I'll pass on this one.
post #65781 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I'm curious about trying this. Any idea what part of the FR curve is actually being adjusted when you add a few points to bass and treble on this?

I assume you are referring to tone controls, rather than Dynamic EQ. I no longer have the tone control action REW graphs for my Marantz AV7005, but I'm pretty sure that their main effect was: Bass below about 200 Hz, with a little more than the marked + 6 dB max at about 100 Hz (most people have their front speakers cross over to the sub at 80 Hz, and the tone controls (on the Marantz) affect the FL and FR ONLY, not the sub, which can have its trim turned up to match or exceed the response of the FL/FR at Xover. The Treble affected frequencies above about 3K, more at the top than elsewhere. Both controls trespassed past these ranges a bit, but at a minor level. Tone controls in general, over the years, varied widely from brand to brand, and even from model to model. Luxman used to make an integrated amp (L580) with three different turnover frequencies for each control, plus a switch that was completely independent of tone controls that gave you two choices for "Low Boost," McIntosh (C28 and others) used to have "Bass trim" controls in addition to tone controls. Although most people want to keep boost or cut moderate, to minimize phase shift, and I agree, phase shift, in practice, has never been as important to my ears as balance.

There's another thing. The acoustical measurements are the ones that count, because a bass or treble boost of X dB electrically may, with some speakers, amount to less than X dB boost acoustically. One of the several reasons for this is a property of speakers called compression. It applies to volume settings, too, where a volume control boost of 10 dB may not amount to a 10 dB boost in SPL in the room. If you don't move the microphone at all between testing the difference between two settings on a tone or volume control, I would think that room modes shouldn't account for this. I read that speaker manufacturers don't like to talk about compression, almost all speakers are capable of producing a little, and some are worse than others.
Edited by garygarrison - 10/15/13 at 12:26am
post #65782 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The XO's are impacted by ALL the measurements. It is totally normal to get slightly different XO's depending on how many measurements you do (in addition to variances in the positioning of the mic).

 

Quite. Very small movements of mic position can result in different XOs being set. Most people don't seem to realise this. In fact, I wonder now if it is in the FAQ. If not, it should be. I'll check.

post #65783 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post

I should have said this in the posts about my use of tone controls: I get away with using them because I almost never use Dynamic EQ which would turn the tone controls off. For some reason I've only rarely been able to get DEQ to sound good on my system.

 

My experience with DEQ for movies has been that it can sound 'off' if something else is not right, but when the other things are right, DEQ invariably makes a positive improvement to the bass (surrounds are a different issue, but they usually sound OK with movies) when listening below Reference levels. Things that can make DEQ negatively affect the sound are, for example, poor speaker and sub placement or excessive ringing in the bass. Of course, for music, DEQ is a hopeless kludge and is probably best left off, or at least used with a load of RLO.

post #65784 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

My experience with DEQ for movies has been that it can sound 'off' if something else is not right, but when the other things are right, DEQ invariably makes a positive improvement to the bass (surrounds are a different issue, but they usually sound OK with movies) when listening below Reference levels. Things that can make DEQ negatively affect the sound are, for example, poor speaker and sub placement or excessive ringing in the bass. Of course, for music, DEQ is a hopeless kludge and is probably best left off, or at least used with a load of RLO.



I like it for music, at least at low listening levels. What is RLO?
post #65785 of 70887
post #65786 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The XO's are impacted by ALL the measurements. It is totally normal to get slightly different XO's depending on how many measurements you do (in addition to variances in the positioning of the mic).

 

Quite. Very small movements of mic position can result in different XOs being set. Most people don't seem to realise this. In fact, I wonder now if it is in the FAQ. If not, it should be. I'll check.

 

I guess what I learned from this exchange was that XO's are affected by ALL measurements.  I mistakenly thought they were determined with only the first set of chirps at the MLP.  Thanks for the info guys.

post #65787 of 70887

Here is a chart showing bass boosted 4db on the front left channel running full range on Onkyo 818.  Smoothing applied to chart to make it easier to see the impacted range.  I don't have one for treble.  This is at MLP and not pre-outs.

 

post #65788 of 70887

@ptguy:  I think it looks better with the boost.  How does it sound to you?

post #65789 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
 

@ptguy:  I think it looks better with the boost.  How does it sound to you?

This is a very old trend and just did it because.  I don't run this way.  I use DynEQ to get my bass boost.

post #65790 of 70887
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

I am trying to understand bob golds room mode calculator - it leads me to believe it is related to my 8 ft ceiling but it's hard to understand the results of the calculator.

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

For now i will screw 130 lb Fathoms f113s to the drywall at eye level - i'm sure it will go well.

Platforms of some sort, just to get them a few feet off the floor will likely show some improvement in the vertical null. It never hurts to try biggrin.gif Some coffee tables should do the trick at least temporarily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

How about this for room treatment? Absorption or diffusion?


I looked that up on bobgolds absorption coefficient list and didn't see it. I think he is way behind the curve not adding such things.
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