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post #66061 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Feri, I was specifically referring to your avoiding the fact that Murray was talking about analog XLR and RCA connectors between his pre-pro and his power amps.  I don't see how your line of discussion can be rationalized as being "general help for new-comers".  It is actually the opposite.  If new-comers observe the type of discussions that have transpired in the last several pages, they may be tempted to never return to this thread.  Having fun?  Decidedly not.

Regardless, Murray has since responded that he was indeed talking about analog connections to a power amp, so this discussion is now over.  Unless, of course, you want the last word...

Jerry, I really wonder what you would have sad if Murray would have come back saying he has XLR interconnects between source and AVP? Assumptions have taken up valuable bandwith again, eh?

As I said in a previous post of mine, I feel the word "officilal" in the name of this thread seem to me to be obsolete. mad.gif

YMMV.
post #66062 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Jl, are we talking about video or audio? I hope Murray is using HDMI for his video interconnects. smile.gif

I am using HDMI for video.
post #66063 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

What exactly are you trying to say here Igor with regards to the -3 dB convention? I always though you also had an engineer's background!
That your belief is untrue smile.gif It is common knowledge that 1dB is generally perceived as a difference. And something as half of that while not directly perceived as a difference in level could still affect blind comparison as a quality difference and this is proven to be statistically significant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

BTW, any news for resolving your bass boost issues with the Onkyo 818?
Problem solved by using an external amp for front speakers that has less tendency for IMD distortion. The SQ with this amp is not depending on presence of this Audyssey boost. And is a lot better than 818 internal amps. Other channels are waiting for their turn.
post #66064 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

You didn't get what I wanted to say here beast. Repeat: don't use F3, but please use -3 dB to describe what you want to say. Seems my English is really bad. mad.gif

No? It's just here:

http://www.parts-express.com/resources/speaker-building-terms.cfm#f

and here:

http://www.eminence.com/2011/06/sealed-vs-ported-enclosures/

and here 2nd pp after the graphic:

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/Box/Help.aspx

and here:

http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=26

That covers speaker design, car audio, home audio, pro audio, and overall DIY audio. Seems pretty universal to me. Floyd Toole even reference an f3 point of a speaker in his papers. You REALLY want to walk down this road? Or are you just trying to poke the bear/beast? Well, He is awake.
post #66065 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Jerry, I really wonder what you would have sad if Murray would have come back saying he has XLR interconnects between source and AVP? Assumptions have taken up valuable bandwith again, eh?

As I said in a previous post of mine, I feel the word "officilal" in the name of this thread seem to me to be obsolete. mad.gif

YMMV.

The only thing that is "unofficial" is the misinformation that myself and plenty others continue to HAVE to correct from your posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

So, your are not an engineer by profession, eh? Unless otherwise you would have gived a much more comprensive and detailed answer to both above subjects.

No problem, just forum life! smile.gif

And now you are attacking people's intellect due to them not being of the same profession as yours? Can we honestly get this stuff banned? I'm out until something happens here. I don't have time for cleaning up any more messes.
post #66066 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

No? It's just here:

http://www.parts-express.com/resources/speaker-building-terms.cfm#f

and here:

http://www.eminence.com/2011/06/sealed-vs-ported-enclosures/

and here 2nd pp after the graphic:

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/Box/Help.aspx

and here:

http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=26

That covers speaker design, car audio, home audio, pro audio, and overall DIY audio. Seems pretty universal to me. Floyd Toole even reference an f3 point of a speaker in his papers. You REALLY want to walk down this road? Or are you just trying to poke the bear/beast? Well, He is awake.

Parts Express Glossary is made for people like avarage Joes, here's what they say:

Quote

F3 (6,8, etc.): The point in an acoustic roll-off where the output is 3 Decibels down from the baseline level. The 3dB figure is used because this is the point where a decrease in output will be noticeable to the average human.

Unquote

What ever is wrong here is:

1. They use F3 which is wrong
2. They don't even know how to write dB correctly when they say "Decibel". It should be deciBel, i.e. one tenth of a Bel, named after Alexander Graham Bell, but spelled with one "l".

Hope this helps. smile.gif
post #66067 of 70896
I'm not so sure that saying you're an electrical engineer means the same thing to us as you think it means. Inconceivable?
post #66068 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I'm not so sure that saying you're an electrical engineer means the same thing to us as you think it means. Inconceivable?

That is another problem! smile.gif Especially for me when trying to talk electronics with language teachers, carpenters, economists, etc. Hekuva problem, believe me when they think they know better. Sorry for the rant! smile.gif
post #66069 of 70896
As I understand it one dB change in total level is perceptible to most folks. A broad eq difference of less than a dB is reportedly audible. But a narrow frequency range dip of even 10 dB is inaudible. Narrow is frequency dependent IIRC.
Even the simplest balanced connection has an advantage over single ended because you add at the receiving end two voltages equal to the single ended output
post #66070 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

That is another problem! smile.gif Especially for me when trying to talk electronics with language teachers, carpenters, economists, etc. Hekuva problem, believe me when they think they know better. Sorry for the rant! smile.gif



When you say your an electrical engineer, is this what you mean? I was just wondering if it means the same thing as I understand it.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_engineering
post #66071 of 70896
It just looks funny when you argue semantics and are also wrong. Its decibel, not deciBel. The symbol for the unit of measure does have a capitalized "B", dB.
post #66072 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Very interesting answer cfraser, I have been somewhat puzzled over the last week or so since the upgrade.

Well, I won't say I'm puzzled about (theoretically?) a downgrade I made recently: I changed to a cheaper (in every way) AVR "pre-pro" (I use 7 external amps). But it has better Audyssey, XT32 vs XT. The sonic result was instantly noticeably superior. More movie time hasn't changed that, my issues with XT with everything else exactly the same are now gone. Not saying it's perfect, but what I didn't like isn't there anymore = a win.

And that's just the way it is. Like you changing from the perceived inferiority of RCA to XLR and getting results that you prefer. It's just awful when new gear actually does sound better, isn't it? So often that's not the case...it's just different. Most annoying when the new stuff is cheaper too. Give it some more listening time.

Actually, what originally made me notice your post was an ~6dB level setting diff. This is a common diff between balanced and single-ended inputs/outputs on my brand of gear. I thought that might be the reason why it seemed ~6dB louder/quieter, but then I have no idea how your gear is internally configured because there's not really a standard, so I didn't say anything at first. Not that I think I've helped at all. smile.gif
post #66073 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Wow - this thread has really detoriated !!!
Maybe it's time to unsubscribe
Or just report all the off-topic excursions of the one member derailing the thread.

Feri, the F3 convention is used in the AUDIO ENGINEERING field. We don't particularly care if it isn't used in electrical engineering.

In addition, the +/-3db convention has been hashed out numerous times and there is NO question that the average person can hear 1db differences. Of course, as the rest of us are ALL aware, you will happily ask for evidence and then completely ignore it if the evidence proves that you're wrong (which it has in this case numerous times, but you of course, choose to ignore that).

While speaker manufacturers can (and some HAVE) manufacture to +/-1db anechoic specs, the cost increase vs +/-3db specs is astronomical. The +/-3db spec is a decent goal that is achievable at reasonable cost, AND a =/-1db anechoic speaker will not be +/-1db once placed in any room anyway. In addition, you also apparently don't understand that there's a WORLD of a difference between a FREQUENCY RESPONSE with deviations between + and - 3db at various frequencies, vs a + or - 3db change in VOLUME or SPL. I guess that's because this isn't anything that electrical engineers deal with vs audio engineers.

This post is primarily for the newbs who might be reading this thread trying to actually learn something, since as past history has shown, YOU Feri, will continue to happily ignore anything that contradicts your viewpoints.


Max
Edited by djbluemax1 - 10/23/13 at 7:11pm
post #66074 of 70896
Moderator

move on guys: or you will be asked to leave the thread
post #66075 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

Well, I won't say I'm puzzled about (theoretically?) a downgrade I made recently: I changed to a cheaper (in every way) AVR "pre-pro" (I use 7 external amps). But it has better Audyssey, XT32 vs XT. The sonic result was instantly noticeably superior. More movie time hasn't changed that, my issues with XT with everything else exactly the same are now gone. Not saying it's perfect, but what I didn't like isn't there anymore = a win.

And it is very interesting to know what was the XT and what is the XT32 "pre-pro"?
post #66076 of 70896
Reposting after that big back and forth wink.gif

I did a couple of runs of XT32 with my Denon 4311 last night and noticed something interesting. I have a fairly high couch back and in the spirit of "staying 12'' from a wall" I moved the first listening position about 12'' forward from the back cushion and took an additional 7 measurements around there. However, when doing this it appeared to drastically effect my front stage response such that vocal volume was significantly decreased and distant (even on stereo sound)? When trying it a second time but instead putting the mic at the ear DISTANCE (so like 6'' away from the couch back) but up 1-2'' so the top of the mic was just above the couch back (but higher than ear height) the resulting sound was drastically different and much more what I would expect. Trying this yet a third time with the mic at exactly ear high again yielded a correct front stage balance but music sounded more harsh.

Any rational behind these large observed differences in behavior given only a few inches of movement? I was shocked that the FR was so incredibly sensitive to the point that minor changes drastically changes how the system sounds!

Thanks
post #66077 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

We all know that the convention of +/- 3 dB is the threshold where the majority of healthy human adults perceive a change.

If I perceive 1dB change.. Am I unhealthy? When I was building an amp, I first connected one channel to the receiver pre-out, then adjusted it by ear with 0.5 dB steps to the other channel connected to the receiver amp. I had to add 3dB to perceive it as balanced, adding 0.5dB more or less than that sounded unbalanced. Final result after measurement - I was as precise as Audyssey in calibrating levels smile.gif

The MV in my car change level in 1dB increments. It is perceived quite clearly also.

 

Most of us must be 'unhealthy' by that definition, Igor. I can perceive a 1dB volume change without any real difficulty, which is not surprising as it is generally agreed to be the JND (confirmatory evidence already posted). Also, if I change my MV by 3dB, say from -9dB to -6dB, the difference in loudness isn't 'just perceptible' - it is very significant!  I am sure that every member can try this for himself and verify that it is the case. 

post #66078 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

Reposting after that big back and forth wink.gif

I did a couple of runs of XT32 with my Denon 4311 last night and noticed something interesting. I have a fairly high couch back and in the spirit of "staying 12'' from a wall" I moved the first listening position about 12'' forward from the back cushion and took an additional 7 measurements around there. However, when doing this it appeared to drastically effect my front stage response such that vocal volume was significantly decreased and distant (even on stereo sound)? When trying it a second time but instead putting the mic at the ear DISTANCE (so like 6'' away from the couch back) but up 1-2'' so the top of the mic was just above the couch back (but higher than ear height) the resulting sound was drastically different and much more what I would expect. Trying this yet a third time with the mic at exactly ear high again yielded a correct front stage balance but music sounded more harsh.

Any rational behind these large observed differences in behavior given only a few inches of movement? I was shocked that the FR was so incredibly sensitive to the point that minor changes drastically changes how the system sounds!

Thanks

 

It's pretty much to be expected. Small changes in mic position can have much bigger impact than the amount of movement of the mic might suggest. It could be, for example, that you are moving the mic out of, or into, a null. Whatever it is, the mic will interact differently with the room depending on where it is placed. 

 

When you say that the overall volume from your system was drastically changed after you calibrated with the mic 12 inches from the backrest of the seat, did you verify that in some way?  For example, did Audyssey set different speaker trims for the new calibration?  Did you measure the loudness with a SPL meter?  If you don't have a SPL meter, you can download a free one from the Android or Apple app stores - it will be good enough for comparative measurements. 

post #66079 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

We all know that the convention of +/- 3 dB is the threshold where the majority of healthy human adults perceive a change.


If I perceive 1dB change.. Am I unhealthy? When I was building an amp, I first connected one channel to the receiver pre-out, then adjusted it by ear with 0.5 dB steps to the other channel connected to the receiver amp. I had to add 3dB to perceive it as balanced, adding 0.5dB more or less than that sounded unbalanced. Final result after measurement - I was as precise as Audyssey in calibrating levels smile.gif


The MV in my car change level in 1dB increments. It is perceived quite clearly also.

Most of us must be 'unhealthy' by that definition, Igor. I can perceive a 1dB volume change without any real difficulty, which is not surprising as it is generally agreed to be the JND (confirmatory evidence already posted). Also, if I change my MV by 3dB, say from -9dB to -6dB, the difference in loudness isn't 'just perceptible' - it is very significant!  I am sure that every member can try this for himself and verify that it is the case. 

Agreed. A 1 dB level overall level shift is generally audible, even if your ears are less than perfect. That's one reason why most AVR volume controls work in 0.5 dB steps - you can't easily hear one step, but you can hear 2-4 of them pretty easily.

If you want to get really technical, let me offer the following, which comes from a refereed JAES paper:



The above shows the maximum allowable level mismatch as a function of bandwidth and frequency, for no perception of an audible change of any kind. It includes a safety margin, so JND is much more than it shows, about twice if memory serves. My recollection is that under ABX conditions which are highly sensitive, about 0.5-0.6 dB overall level change is audible under ideal conditions. Ideal conditions means fast switching to a reference at listener discretion, and source material that is changing relatively slowly. I know for sure that rapidly changing music can make detection of level changes far more difficult.

Detection of 1 dB level changes takes far less ideal listening conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 
It's pretty much to be expected. Small changes in mic position can have much bigger impact than the amount of movement of the mic might suggest. It could be, for example, that you are moving the mic out of, or into, a null. Whatever it is, the mic will interact differently with the room depending on where it is placed.

Also agreed. With a small diameter mic (1/4") readily measurable dips on the order of 20 dB or more can be found in a room. If you are playing say a 100 Hz sine wave, a fairly loud tone can nearly disappear in the nulls.
post #66080 of 70896
WARNING: Audyssey related post from a retired crane operator and not an electrical engineer.

Yesterday, I moved my 2 subs a bit more (6 inches) into the room to get them away from the baseboard radiators and reran Audyssey XT32. Sounded good but I noticed that it was a little more right side dominant, than normal. My center is a typical MTM array and from the same family as all my other speakers and all three fronts were correctly measured by calibration. I checked using a SPL meter. Then, I was looking at the distance settings and the center was 14.5 feet and the R+L were at 15. So, I then set the center to 15 and it instantly moved the dialogue closer to the center and then to 15.5 where it completely centered it and made it considerably louder and clearer. Moving it any higher undid it and made it quieter and less focused.

I've never been completely happy with the front soundstage as the center seemed to integrate better with the left front speaker than the right. I've turned it upside down and that didn't help. Now, it's equal all across the front. I think that it might be a phase issue like the subwoofer distance tweak..

Anyway, I'm just throwing this out there for folks who complain about low center channel volume.
post #66081 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's pretty much to be expected. Small changes in mic position can have much bigger impact than the amount of movement of the mic might suggest. It could be, for example, that you are moving the mic out of, or into, a null. Whatever it is, the mic will interact differently with the room depending on where it is placed. 

When you say that the overall volume from your system was drastically changed after you calibrated with the mic 12 inches from the backrest of the seat, did you verify that in some way?  For example, did Audyssey set different speaker trims for the new calibration?  Did you measure the loudness with a SPL meter?  If you don't have a SPL meter, you can download a free one from the Android or Apple app stores - it will be good enough for comparative measurements. 



Good post Keith and I believe your 'null" statement is the reason my last calibration lacks mid bass. I'm thinking a more traditional mic placement may be better in my case, than the tighter pattern I used, where my room is poor acoustically.
post #66082 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

We all know that the convention of +/- 3 dB is the threshold where the majority of healthy human adults perceive a change.


If I perceive 1dB change.. Am I unhealthy? When I was building an amp, I first connected one channel to the receiver pre-out, then adjusted it by ear with 0.5 dB steps to the other channel connected to the receiver amp. I had to add 3dB to perceive it as balanced, adding 0.5dB more or less than that sounded unbalanced. Final result after measurement - I was as precise as Audyssey in calibrating levels smile.gif


The MV in my car change level in 1dB increments. It is perceived quite clearly also.

Most of us must be 'unhealthy' by that definition, Igor. I can perceive a 1dB volume change without any real difficulty, which is not surprising as it is generally agreed to be the JND (confirmatory evidence already posted). Also, if I change my MV by 3dB, say from -9dB to -6dB, the difference in loudness isn't 'just perceptible' - it is very significant!  I am sure that every member can try this for himself and verify that it is the case. 

Agreed. A 1 dB level overall level shift is generally audible, even if your ears are less than perfect. That's one reason why most AVR volume controls work in 0.5 dB steps - you can't easily hear one step, but you can hear 2-4 of them pretty easily.

If you want to get really technical, let me offer the following, which comes from a refereed JAES paper:



The above shows the maximum allowable level mismatch as a function of bandwidth and frequency, for no perception of an audible change of any kind. It includes a safety margin, so JND is much more than it shows, about twice if memory serves. My recollection is that under ABX conditions which are highly sensitive, about 0.5-0.6 dB overall level change is audible under ideal conditions. Ideal conditions means fast switching to a reference at listener discretion, and source material that is changing relatively slowly. I know for sure that rapidly changing music can make detection of level changes far more difficult.

Detection of 1 dB level changes takes far less ideal listening conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 
It's pretty much to be expected. Small changes in mic position can have much bigger impact than the amount of movement of the mic might suggest. It could be, for example, that you are moving the mic out of, or into, a null. Whatever it is, the mic will interact differently with the room depending on where it is placed.

Also agreed. With a small diameter mic (1/4") readily measurable dips on the order of 20 dB or more can be found in a room. If you are playing say a 100 Hz sine wave, a fairly loud tone can nearly disappear in the nulls.

 

Arny, it is good to see you in this thread!   Your appearance is especially welcome right now as I happen to know that you are a very qualified and experienced electrical engineer. Some seem to only want to believe the content of posts made by people qualified as you are, so your confirmation of what many of us (non-engineers) already know is especially valued. 

post #66083 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's pretty much to be expected. Small changes in mic position can have much bigger impact than the amount of movement of the mic might suggest. It could be, for example, that you are moving the mic out of, or into, a null. Whatever it is, the mic will interact differently with the room depending on where it is placed. 

When you say that the overall volume from your system was drastically changed after you calibrated with the mic 12 inches from the backrest of the seat, did you verify that in some way?  For example, did Audyssey set different speaker trims for the new calibration?  Did you measure the loudness with a SPL meter?  If you don't have a SPL meter, you can download a free one from the Android or Apple app stores - it will be good enough for comparative measurements. 



Good post Keith and I believe your 'null" statement is the reason my last calibration lacks mid bass. I'm thinking a more traditional mic placement may be better in my case, than the tighter pattern I used, where my room is poor acoustically.

 

It is quite possible. I always recommend that people start with the Audyssey standard mic placement guide. This probably works pretty well in a variety of situations as the Audyssey algorithm has been specifically designed to make 'every seat a good seat' - that is, it will take into account the differences between the various locations of the mic and try to arrive at an 'overall good' solution. Once that has been achieved than many of us have successfully experimented with non-standard mic locations (usually a tighter pattern) and the aim here has been somewhat different - rather than 'every seat is a good seat' we have been looking for 'the one seat that is an optimal seat'. The tighter pattern does run into the potential difficulty that the mic may be now placed in a bad location wrt to nulls etc, and if this is the case, then the overall result will be worse, but it may also point to the MLP needing to be moved out of the 'bad place'. Those with measuring capabilities have been able to measure the effect of the Audyssey SOP for mic placement and our own 'non-standard' mic placements, to ensure that we are not falling into a trap of some kind. Personally, I use 7 mic positions in a diamond whose sides are approx 2 feet long, around the MLP, and 2 positions on the only other seat (Pro allows for more than 8 positions) to give a nod to the SQ in that seat for the occasional times that someone is actually sitting in it. 

 

I do speak, of course, as someone who is not an electrical engineer ;)

post #66084 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

WARNING: Audyssey related post from a retired crane operator and not an electrical engineer.
 

 

LOL! Priceless!

 

 

Quote:

 Yesterday, I moved my 2 subs a bit more (6 inches) into the room to get them away from the baseboard radiators and reran Audyssey XT32. Sounded good but I noticed that it was a little more right side dominant, than normal. My center is a typical MTM array and from the same family as all my other speakers and all three fronts were correctly measured by calibration. I checked using a SPL meter. Then, I was looking at the distance settings and the center was 14.5 feet and the R+L were at 15. So, I then set the center to 15 and it instantly moved the dialogue closer to the center and then to 15.5 where it completely centered it and made it considerably louder and clearer. Moving it any higher undid it and made it quieter and less focused.

I've never been completely happy with the front soundstage as the center seemed to integrate better with the left front speaker than the right. I've turned it upside down and that didn't help. Now, it's equal all across the front. I think that it might be a phase issue like the subwoofer distance tweak..

Anyway, I'm just throwing this out there for folks who complain about low center channel volume.

 

Is your MLP central?  If not, where do you put the mic for Position #1?  

 

If you have a central MLP and you out the mic in it for Position #1, then it's a little unusual that Audyssey gets the 'balance' wrong as it is pretty good at detecting the distances accurately.

 

If you have a slightly off-centre MLP (as I do) then putting the mic for Position #1 in the centre (ie centrally located between the speakers) will give a 'shift' of the soundstage towards the centre, relative to your MLP. I discovered this a long time ago when I used to put the mic in the central position. The soundstage was always shifted to the left. I realised that if I moved my head over to the centre, it all snapped into focus, so I then started to put the mic on the actual MLP seat for the first measurement. This always results in a perfectly balanced soundstage for my seat (but not for the one other seat).

 

HST, Audyssey isn't perfect and your solution of changing the speaker distance slightly may be a good solution for your particular problem. If the soundstage is now to your liking, then that is what really matters.

post #66085 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

WARNING: Audyssey related post from a retired crane operator and not an electrical engineer.

Yesterday, I moved my 2 subs a bit more (6 inches) into the room to get them away from the baseboard radiators and reran Audyssey XT32. Sounded good but I noticed that it was a little more right side dominant, than normal. My center is a typical MTM array and from the same family as all my other speakers and all three fronts were correctly measured by calibration. I checked using a SPL meter. Then, I was looking at the distance settings and the center was 14.5 feet and the R+L were at 15. So, I then set the center to 15 and it instantly moved the dialogue closer to the center and then to 15.5 where it completely centered it and made it considerably louder and clearer. Moving it any higher undid it and made it quieter and less focused.

I've never been completely happy with the front soundstage as the center seemed to integrate better with the left front speaker than the right. I've turned it upside down and that didn't help. Now, it's equal all across the front. I think that it might be a phase issue like the subwoofer distance tweak..

Anyway, I'm just throwing this out there for folks who complain about low center channel volume.

I am just a coach, but I have pretty good ears and I like to try new things. Long before Audyssey, on my Yamaha receiver I noticed the very same thing you did regarding the center speaker. What I learned from that, and still use today with Audyssey is small, fine changes in speaker measurements make a "world of difference" to me.

The easiest way for me to hear the changes is with 2 channel music that I am familiar with, played using the all channel stereo mode (you need to disable DEQ for this, as the image is too far back when on). I tweak each speaker until the image is perfectly centered in my visual perception. My Denon has 1/10' increments and has made it really easy to add a 1/10' here or there to get everything perfect to me. I have to admit, I don't hear much of a difference in loud multi-channel sound tracks, but with music it is dramatic, and I sleep better knowing that if it sounds great with music than I'm also hearing movies the same too.

Also, Audyssey continually sets the left speaker 6/10' further away than the right, even though I spent a long time to get them the same distance from the MLP. The sound image is balanced badly to the left when I listen to the stock Audyssey findings, both in stereo and pl II music or all channel stereo. Moving the left the same distance as the right immediately fixes the issue and is the very first thing I do after a calibration. I have hours and hours playing with all 5 speaker's distance, with all sorts of familiar music and have found my perfect settings which I documented and always set my system to. None of the changes are dramatic with 3/10' being the biggest change (not counting the front L issue), and that just happens to be the center speaker. wink.gif
Edited by D Bone - 10/24/13 at 8:23am
post #66086 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Is your MLP central?  If not, where do you put the mic for Position #1?

I have 2 very large overstuffed recliners pushed together in the middle of the room. I put the mic between them for position 1.  

If you have a central MLP and you out the mic in it for Position #1, then it's a little unusual that Audyssey gets the 'balance' wrong as it is pretty good at detecting the distances accurately.

I agree. But, the center channel must be right on the edge of the half foot distance setting that Onkyo measures in because sometimes it sets it at the same distance (15 feet) as the fronts. Maybe because I've moved the mic an inch or so when calibrating.

If you have a slightly off-centre MLP (as I do) then putting the mic for Position #1 in the centre (ie centrally located between the speakers) will give a 'shift' of the soundstage towards the centre, relative to your MLP. I discovered this a long time ago when I used to put the mic in the central position. The soundstage was always shifted to the left. I realised that if I moved my head over to the centre, it all snapped into focus, so I then started to put the mic on the actual MLP seat for the first measurement. This always results in a perfectly balanced soundstage for my seat (but not for the one other seat).

I rarely have anyone sitting in the other seat but I calibrate as if someone might someday. I've tried it your way and it's great, much more immersive, but I always default to center just in case the wife decides to drop in.

HST, Audyssey isn't perfect and your solution of changing the speaker distance slightly may be a good solution for your particular problem. If the soundstage is now to your liking, then that is what really matters.

Yeah, it's better. I think that it has something to do with the phase setup of the MTM speaker. Lots of posts about complaints with them, to the point that some people (electrical engineers?) recommend not using them and instead going with a conventional satellite speaker. The loudness increase would make me believe this as when I've heard an out of phase speaker it always sounds quitter and less focused.
post #66087 of 70896
^ I also sit off center and have started to use the MLP in my seat. I used to be generous, but after better understanding that my wife enjoyed the sound regardless of where she sat I realized it wasn't really selfish - if anything it prompts me to tweak with settings less when I enjoy the sound so I interrupt the content we are watching together less often biggrin.gif
post #66088 of 70896
D Bone,

My Onkyo only allows 1/2 foot increments and this might be the cause of the problem. Rounding off an inch or so to the next 1/2 foot. As we both have found, that can be critical in proper imaging.
post #66089 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

^ I also sit off center and have started to use the MLP in my seat. I used to be generous, but after better understanding that my wife enjoyed the sound regardless of where she sat I realized it wasn't really selfish - if anything it prompts me to tweak with settings less when I enjoy the sound so I interrupt the content we are watching together less often biggrin.gif

 

This is what I find too. Mrs Keith doesn't really care about these things, so I may as well optimise for someone who does: me. :)

post #66090 of 70896

^So true.  Other listeners are basking in plentiful audio goodness outside MLP, blissfully in a state of "suspended disbelief" without complaints.... until and unless I make a change that involves superimposing a menu and/or causes even a momentary audio dropout. 

 

 

<non EE Audyssey thread poster>

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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)