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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2207

post #66181 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

That's different from complaining about them "giving opinions to consumers", though I do share your frustration about them not putting it to use (they're sitting on so much useful technology).

While they haven't done anything with their new surround processing (except demo it at CEDIA) and very limited implementation of their new room correction (JBL Synthesis systems), their research into waveguides is finally showing up in JBL Pro speakers. Hopefully the rest follows.



Why would they want to put their research out there. That doesn't make any sense, and their obviously being secretive for a reason.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/27/13 at 7:11am
post #66182 of 70896

^I think it's safe to say Sanjay's comment is not referring to sharing or not sharing research findings or proprietary technology, but rather to how little of that cutting edge technology has been incorporated into affordable audio/HT consumer products.  

 

Audyssey rightly plays it close to the vest with the former but the latter is one of Audyssey's greatest successes IMO. 

post #66183 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^I think it's safe to say Sanjay's comment is not referring to sharing or not sharing research findings or proprietary technology, but rather to how little of that cutting edge technology has been incorporated into affordable audio/HT consumer products.  

Audyssey rightly plays it close to the vest with the former but the latter is one of Audyssey's greatest successes IMO. 



We can agree to disagree on that point SOM smile.gif Harman continues to lead the pack and IMO has released technology slowly as needed. Just like HDMI milked v 1.4 for all it's worth.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/27/13 at 7:15am
post #66184 of 70896

^ So you think their marketing strategy to date has been "...released technology slowly as needed."

So since we have XT32, we don't "need" a Harmon DSPRC available in a box that's superior, affordable and relatively easy to use- so they haven't released it yet.  ;)

post #66185 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 

^ So you think their marketing strategy to date has been "...released technology slowly as needed."

So since we have XT32, we don't "need" a Harmon DSPRC available in a box that's superior, affordable and relatively easy to use- so they haven't released it yet.  ;)

 

Yeah - they must be holding it back so we don't get too many toys all at once :)

 

I wish they would release it :). I'd love to have my electronic RC/EQ offboard. And upgradeable via FW updates. And connectable to my laptop for total control over the resulting curve, with the ability to create different 'profiles' for different purposes  - eg movies or music, or single seat vs multiple seats, all available at the touch of a button.  I would be able to run the simplest of AVRs or prepros, of any make I chose, with the offboard EQ in between the prepro and amps. 

post #66186 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^ So you think their marketing strategy to date has been "...released technology slowly as needed."
So since we have XT32, we don't "need" a Harmon DSPRC available in a box that's superior, affordable and relatively easy to use- so they haven't released it yet.  wink.gif



And how do you know they aren't working on something or already have the technology that is superior to XT32? wink.gif
By all accounts JBL RMC works very well.
post #66187 of 70896
Room correction has been and is the future and I'm buying whichever one works best, to a certain price point anyway. Audyssey has been the best to date, but I can't help feeling that they are in the crosshairs of more than one company.

Back on topic smile.gif
Edited by comfynumb - 10/27/13 at 8:16am
post #66188 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

 
^ So you think their marketing strategy to date has been "...released technology slowly as needed."
So since we have XT32, we don't "need" a Harmon DSPRC available in a box that's superior, affordable and relatively easy to use- so they haven't released it yet.  wink.gif

Yeah - they must be holding it back so we don't get too many toys all at once smile.gif

I wish they would release it smile.gif. I'd love to have my electronic RC/EQ offboard. And upgradeable via FW updates. And connectable to my laptop for total control over the resulting curve, with the ability to create different 'profiles' for different purposes  - eg movies or music, or single seat vs multiple seats, all available at the touch of a button.  I would be able to run the simplest of AVRs or prepros, of any make I chose, with the offboard EQ in between the prepro and amps. 

That was tongue-in-cheek, right? Since those features are already available if you're willing to spend the $$$$$. (Although, perhaps, not from Harman.)

I know Audyssey stopped production of their external unit quite some time ago. Might it be available used for almost-reasonable prices? Or has has its value gone through the roof because of limited availability?
post #66189 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

And how do you know they aren't working on something or already have the technology that is superior to XT32? wink.gif
By all accounts JBL RMC works very well.

No disrespect but you seem to be missing my point.  I'm not defending Audyssey or criticizing Harmon/JBL.  It indeed appears that JBL  already has, and appears to be developing more, cool audio technology.  It's getting a product to market  that's superior to XT32, affordable, in a reliable package and reasonably easy to use that is the issue.  Many of us on this thread have waited for years for such a competitor to Audyssey to appear......and still waiting.;) 

post #66190 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

No disrespect but you seem to be missing my point.  I'm not defending Audyssey or criticizing Harmon/JBL.  It indeed appears that JBL  already has, and appears to be developing more, cool audio technology.  It's getting a product to market  that's superior to XT32, affordable, in a reliable package and reasonably easy to use that is the issue.  Many of us on this thread have waited for years for such a competitor to Audyssey to appear......and still waiting.wink.gif  



Maybe Harman is not so willing to let a third party mess with their trademark sound that they worked so hard to establish. There are many opinions on the subject and we are all just guessing.
post #66191 of 70896

^True nuff.

post #66192 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

 
^ So you think their marketing strategy to date has been "...released technology slowly as needed."
So since we have XT32, we don't "need" a Harmon DSPRC available in a box that's superior, affordable and relatively easy to use- so they haven't released it yet.  wink.gif

Yeah - they must be holding it back so we don't get too many toys all at once smile.gif

I wish they would release it smile.gif. I'd love to have my electronic RC/EQ offboard. And upgradeable via FW updates. And connectable to my laptop for total control over the resulting curve, with the ability to create different 'profiles' for different purposes  - eg movies or music, or single seat vs multiple seats, all available at the touch of a button.  I would be able to run the simplest of AVRs or prepros, of any make I chose, with the offboard EQ in between the prepro and amps. 

That was tongue-in-cheek, right? Since those features are already available if you're willing to spend the $$$$$. (Although, perhaps, not from Harman.)

I know Audyssey stopped production of their external unit quite some time ago. Might it be available used for almost-reasonable prices? Or has has its value gone through the roof because of limited availability?

 

Sorry, I should have qualified that with the word "affordable". :)

 

I have never seen an Audyssey external box for sale anywhere... either people think they are just too good to sell or they are just as rare as hens' teeth.

post #66193 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

And how do you know they aren't working on something or already have the technology that is superior to XT32? wink.gif
By all accounts JBL RMC works very well.

No disrespect but you seem to be missing my point.  I'm not defending Audyssey or criticizing Harmon/JBL.  It indeed appears that JBL  already has, and appears to be developing more, cool audio technology.  It's getting a product to market  that's superior to XT32, affordable, in a reliable package and reasonably easy to use that is the issue.  Many of us on this thread have waited for years for such a competitor to Audyssey to appear......and still waiting.;) 

 

+1

post #66194 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

No disrespect but you seem to be missing my point.  I'm not defending Audyssey or criticizing Harmon/JBL.  It indeed appears that JBL  already has, and appears to be developing more, cool audio technology.  It's getting a product to market  that's superior to XT32, affordable, in a reliable package and reasonably easy to use that is the issue.  Many of us on this thread have waited for years for such a competitor to Audyssey to appear......and still waiting.wink.gif  

SOM, the competitors exist that have the target curve editing, parameter tweaking, and multiple saved calibrations while providing full range correction.

But they're either five figures expensive (full Trinnov or the Datasat with Dirac Live) or involve HTPC (Dirac or Room Perfect). The latter appears to involve a brutal learning curve for using the software with other plug-ins like JRiver for bass management and adjustments beyond what you can currently execute on an AVR right now, as well as a multichannel DAC card for input into an amp. There's also a brick wall between using a PC for room correction for computer sources and using that software for correcting input from external sources (i.e. from a Pre/Pro). AFAIK nobody's been able to input external multichannel input from a pre/pro, have a PC apply room correction, and then route the corrected signal to an amp.

Not to derail the thread, but I've still got my Trinnov/R-972 to test out once we get out of the all-consuming baby stuff and I have dedicated time (LOL).
post #66195 of 70896

^Well put, Stuart. 

 

In contrast to any and all of the above, as you well know, XT32 is available at some small but undefined cost already built-in to several affordable OEM AVPs (some under $1K street with warranty !!) that are reliable, stable platforms yielding exc SQ andbundled with tons of modern features.

 

The cost to bump up to Pro is $700 and it's not hard to learn or to do.

post #66196 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
 
Not to derail the thread, but I've still got my Trinnov/R-972 to test out once we get out of the all-consuming baby stuff and I have dedicated time (LOL).

 

I for one am really interested in your findings here. I have only read good stuff about Trinnov and would love to try it. The R-972 is 600 bucks at Accessories4Less but to import it here would work out over $1,000, which is too much just for an experiment (I'd never sell it for a decent price in the UK). At 600 bucks I'd give it a try. 

post #66197 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post...I have never seen an Audyssey external box for sale anywhere... either people think they are just too good to sell or they are just as rare as hens' teeth.


AFAIK there were two boxes produced:

the Sub EQ (only for use with the Pro kit)

and the SVS AS-EQ1

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/92052-sub-equalizer-and-multeq

 

Occasionally one or the other appears for sale on Agon or ebay, not often though.  XT32 has made them obsolete for most folks, though I've heard of Pio guys using them on the sub ch to get the EQ there that MCACC doesn't provide.

post #66198 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 

^Well put, Stuart. 

 

In contrast to any and all of the above, as you well know, XT32 is available at some small but undefined cost already built-in to several affordable OEM AVPs (some under $1K street with warranty !!) that are reliable, stable platforms yielding exc SQ andbundled with tons of modern features.

 

The cost to bump up to Pro is $700 and it's not hard to learn or to do.

 

Good points. $10,000 plus is really just too much for an external box IMO. There are numerous things I'd rather buy for 10 grand than a room EQ. And when you weigh it against the cost of room treatments which can do most, if not all, the job as good, or better, it starts to look silly IMO. The Onkyo 818 at less than a grand comes with 7 decent amplifiers (or is it 9) and a ton of other features as well as XT32... now that is what I call value. 

 

I do wish Pro was more customisable though.

post #66199 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post...I have never seen an Audyssey external box for sale anywhere... either people think they are just too good to sell or they are just as rare as hens' teeth.


AFAIK there were two boxes produced:

the Sub EQ (only for use with the Pro kit)

and the SVS AS-EQ1

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/92052-sub-equalizer-and-multeq

 

Occasionally one or the other appears for sale on Agon or ebay, not often though.  XT32 has made them obsolete for most folks, though I've heard of Pio guys using them on the sub ch to get the EQ there that MCACC doesn't provide.

 

I did have the fabulous AS-EQ1 of course (when my AVR had XT) and I loved that unit. But it isn't in any way customisable - all it really does is the 'bass bit' of XT32/SubEQ HT. But it does it very well and made a terrific difference to my XT-equipped unit. I sold it for almost as much as I paid for it (A US friend ordered it for me in the States and shipped it over to me so I got it for a lot less than they sell for in the UK). IIRC it sold within a day of advertising it. Ended up in Holland. 

 

As you say, XT32 made it superfluous. Great addition to a Yamaha or Pioneer system though, although nowadays I think I would go with the AntiMode Dual Core 2.0. I really like what that can do. And, boy, is it customisable.

post #66200 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Why would they want to put their research out there. That doesn't make any sense, and their obviously being secretive for a reason.
I was saying the opposite, as SoM pointed out. Harman in some ways does the reverse of Audyssey, to the extent that they don't mind sharing research openly (Sean Olive just presented a new study this month at AES citing their latest blind testing on preferred target curves for loudspeakers and headphones), but they don't license that technology to anyone and hardly put out products that take advantage of all that research (recent speakers being the exception). At this point I'm wondering if they're even capable of producing a modern receiver or surround processor (the latest Synthesis pre-pro is a rebadged Bryston SP3).
post #66201 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

...I have never seen an Audyssey external box for sale anywhere... either people think they are just too good to sell or they are just as rare as hens' teeth.


AFAIK there were two boxes produced:
the Sub EQ (only for use with the Pro kit)
and the SVS AS-EQ1
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/92052-sub-equalizer-and-multeq

Occasionally one or the other appears for sale on Agon or ebay, not often though.  XT32 has made them obsolete for most folks, though I've heard of Pio guys using them on the sub ch to get the EQ there that MCACC doesn't provide.

I think you've overlooked the Audyssey MultEQ Pro Sound Equalizer, which handles 8 analog channels. It listed for $2500 in 2006 and can occasionally be found used for about $1600.


See
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649073056-want_to_add_audyssey_to_your_preampr_audyssey_sound_equalizer_unbalancedsub_equalizeraudyssey_pro_mi/
and
http://www.audioholics.com/acoustic-reviews/audyssey-multeq-pro-sound-equalizer
post #66202 of 70896

^Right, Selden-how could I forget Audyssey-in-a-box! :o 

post #66203 of 70896
Presumably MultEQ XT32 performs better, though, and can be had for a lot less. *sigh*
post #66204 of 70896
Don't the different sound profiles we all choose offer different house curves within them?

e.g. DSX, THX etc etc....
post #66205 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

... The issue that seems to arise is good old preference. Many do not want the Reference curve (flat at Reference SPL) and want more bass. I wonder if this is due to DEQ not working 'perfectly' wrt to the bass boost it applies, or if there is some odd psychoacoustic factor at work which influences us when we are playing soundtracks in the smaller domestic rooms, or when we are not playing at Reference level?  Or maybe most people are just closet bassheads smile.gif Maybe most would find the bass totally satisfying if they played the system at Reference level? Just surmising. 
 

IMO:

1) Yes, DEQ works "less than 'perfectly' " to my ears.

2) As you say, there may well be an additional psychoacoustic factor at work when we playback in our smaller rooms. Compared to HT, I would expect commercial theaters to have more reverberation (except for those smothered in absorbers). Reverberation increases perceived complexity, and complexity is one of Berlyne's cortical arousal altering variables (the more complexity, the higher the arousal, ETEBE). If we can't get high enough arousal at a given SPL in our relatively reverberation free small rooms, I would think adding bass would increase the arousal. How big are most cinema control rooms? Do they somehow take into account -- and depend on -- the larger size of a theater?

3) I believe that many of us are closet bassheads, but, if I use Audyssey Reference as is, at Referece level, there seems to be more bass when experiencing the same film in a commercial theater. By adding bass, I can simulate what I hear in the theaters.
post #66206 of 70896
same with hearing music at a concert, and that is how I tend to recreate my playback. I know live music can be far from flat, but I still aim for the visceral impact I feel at live shows from 5 rows back...
post #66207 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I have never seen an Audyssey external box for sale anywhere... either people think they are just too good to sell or they are just as rare as hens' teeth.

I am not selling it but I have one of their external boxes and I doubt they are "just too good to sell."  They have never been updated from XT levels.  

post #66208 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

Flat we all understand, and is easily measurable. Everything else is "somebody's" preference, regardless of how they promote it and came to it. I do agree that flat should only be a starting place, and having little/no control over the curve is not optimal. The other option is no correction at all, for those who think Audyssey (or whatever) is so terrible or makes things worse. Duh, if you don't like it, don't use it, go by your fabulous and superior ears. As far as bass boost, don't most (all?) subs have input controls where you can adjust that to preference? Since preference seems to be the argument. I can guarantee you, whatever curve or method of correction is used, lots of people won't like it and will complain about how it's done. Pick your poison. Though I appreciate Harman's research, always have, they are the last company who should be giving opinions to consumers, they're about as far behind the curve in consumer room correction as any major consumer electronics manufacturer.

Respectfully I totally disagree.

Harman have been at the forefront of audio science since Dr. Toole went to work there in the early 1990s. Anything that Dr. Toole or Dr. Olive has to say about room correction should be recorded/written down as their 80 years of audio science doing world-class psycho-acoustic research has led to incredible advances in all consumer products, especially speakers. They were/are at the forefront of parametric equalization and sound field management, multiple subwoofers, and predicting subjective opinion with objective measurement methodology. Dr. Toole's book IMHO is the best consumer audio book on the subject available.

Cheers.

What does what I said have to do with what you said? My last sentence sums up what is relevant to this thread/forum.

You don't have to tell me about Toole. I have been a fan since the early '70s when he regularly wrote for Canadian mags, and I also worked at the NRC's Hertzberg Institute of Astrophysics back then, and later on at NRC in the '80s (both in Ottawa, mostly...). So yes, I have heard of him. I'm sure you know a lot of what Toole did later has to do with peoples' preferences i.e. marketing-oriented. Nuff said.
post #66209 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I have never seen an Audyssey external box for sale anywhere... either people think they are just too good to sell or they are just as rare as hens' teeth.

I am not selling it but I have one of their external boxes and I doubt they are "just too good to sell."  They have never been updated from XT levels.  

 

Haha. That explains why you don't see them for sale then - they're way behind the times.

post #66210 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

... The issue that seems to arise is good old preference. Many do not want the Reference curve (flat at Reference SPL) and want more bass. I wonder if this is due to DEQ not working 'perfectly' wrt to the bass boost it applies, or if there is some odd psychoacoustic factor at work which influences us when we are playing soundtracks in the smaller domestic rooms, or when we are not playing at Reference level?  Or maybe most people are just closet bassheads smile.gif Maybe most would find the bass totally satisfying if they played the system at Reference level? Just surmising. 
 


3) I believe that many of us are closet bassheads, but, if I use Audyssey Reference as is, at Referece level, there seems to be more bass when experiencing the same film in a commercial theater. By adding bass, I can simulate what I hear in the theaters.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

same with hearing music at a concert, and that is how I tend to recreate my playback. I know live music can be far from flat, but I still aim for the visceral impact I feel at live shows from 5 rows back...

 

Good ol' Preference then. Nothing wrong with that of course.

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