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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2210

post #66271 of 70904
it could but it couldntas well. By stacking he could potentially take care of the vertical null, and at 1/4 point in from the side wall, he is already taking care of that one. The only 1st order null left is the room length mode.
post #66272 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

How about on the other side of the room (3 ft from the right wall)?



post #66273 of 70904
Left side again, the sub in the front is my new arrival.




post #66274 of 70904
I bought a slimmer rack and my plan is to flank the rack with the two subs. I know this is not ideal but I'm limited here. Unless I go behind the couch where I have a lot of room. By the way those are Hsu subs the ones that can be sealed or one or two ports open. It seems better with both ports open.

Edit;
Great bass for one sub almost everywhere in that room. Except the LP! And removing the coffee table makes the bass slightly better but not much.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/29/13 at 1:50pm
post #66275 of 70904
Back wall has worked VERY well for many members here. Don't count it out. Try your up front orientation then toss em behind you and see what comes of it!
post #66276 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Back wall has worked VERY well for many members here. Don't count it out. Try your up front orientation then toss em behind you and see what comes of it!



The only problem is the back wall is my kitchen, the only place to put one sub is behind the couch which is a good 6' from the back wall.
post #66277 of 70904
well nearfield has its benefits too smile.gif Lol
post #66278 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

@comfynumb:  Is the center of the driver really 2 1/2 ft from the left wall?  If so, what about rotating the sub 90 degrees so the driver faces the TV and extends it another 6" or so?


Maybe the other pics I posted can help you see things better.
post #66279 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

well nearfield has its benefits too smile.gif Lol



I hear you beast, anything I can do has to be an improvement. I'm losing half my bass at least at the MLP with that one damn sub though.
post #66280 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Yes, XT32 does noticeably more correction in the low frequencies than XT.
If MultEQ XT in your friend's Marantz isn't already pulling down that peak, then you have to do it by alternate means, like subwoofer placement and/or an outboard DSP (miniDSP or Behringer).
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

You might be interested in this analysis of XT vs. XT32:  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1346723/the-audyssey-pro-installer-kit-thread-faq-in-post-1/3570#post_22725461

Thanks guys, that clears things up. I'm gonna recommend the MiniDSP to him... I have one and it's great and easy to use. Although I don't have much correction to do myself after XT32 does its job. I just use it to tweak dual subs delays and to add a house curve on top of what Audyssey gives me.
post #66281 of 70904
Sorry I don't mean to take the thread over guys. But as far as I can tell the bass drops around 2.5dB or 3dB from a good area of the room to the MLP.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/29/13 at 2:59pm
post #66282 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

The only problem is the back wall is my kitchen, the only place to put one sub is behind the couch which is a good 6' from the back wall.
That's even better than my previous suggestions. Try the following exercise behind your couch:

Take one of your subs and place it flat against the left wall (sub amp pointing to front wall, driver & ports pointing to kitchen). Might be easier to do with the new sub instead of moving the one up front. Make sure crossovers (in your receiver AND on the sub) are set well above 100Hz. Play pink noise through that sub only (no speakers nor your other sub). Stand against the left wall and start walking towards the middle of the room.

About 3 feet or so from the left wall, you should hear the bass drop off. You've heard a null before, so you already know what to listen for. Modal peaks are broad but nulls are narrow, so leaning your head back and forth should help you find the exact location. Drop a coin or something on the floor to mark the location of the null. Move your subwoofer to that location.

Re-run Audyssey and check if you still have the null at your main listening position. Doing this without measuring gear is more difficult but not impossible (if you're willing to endure some trial & error).
post #66283 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I hear you beast, anything I can do has to be an improvement. I'm losing half my bass at least at the MLP with that one damn sub though.
comfy, is your listening room in a basement, and the floor is a concrete slab on grade?
If so, that explains most of your (lack of) bass problem!
Invest in this book, and consider putting in a 'wood sleeper floor' if its now a concrete slab.
(This book has A LOT of great ideas for improving bass...when room correction software simply isn't getting you there...).

post #66284 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

That's even better than my previous suggestions. Try the following exercise behind your couch:

Take one of your subs and place it flat against the left wall (sub amp pointing to front wall, driver & ports pointing to kitchen). Might be easier to do with the new sub instead of moving the one up front. Make sure crossovers (in your receiver AND on the sub) are set well above 100Hz. Play pink noise through that sub only (no speakers nor your other sub). Stand against the left wall and start walking towards the middle of the room.

About 3 feet or so from the left wall, you should hear the bass drop off. You've heard a null before, so you already know what to listen for. Modal peaks are broad but nulls are narrow, so leaning your head back and forth should help you find the exact location. Drop a coin or something on the floor to mark the location of the null. Move your subwoofer to that location.

Re-run Audyssey and check if you still have the null at your main listening position. Doing this without measuring gear is more difficult but not impossible (if you're willing to endure some trial & error).



I will have to get a long subwoofer cable for this, but I'm willing to try it. Is the null being caused by reflections off the back wall? So my bass is getting cancelled out by reflections basically? There is a hallway by the back wall too by the way.
post #66285 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Norseman View Post

comfy, is your listening room in a basement, and the floor is a concrete slab on grade?
If so, that explains most of your (lack of) bass problem!
Invest in this book, and consider putting in a 'wood sleeper floor' if its now a concrete slab.
(This book has A LOT of great ideas for improving bass...when room correction software simply isn't getting you there...).




No I'm on the main floor, which is all wooden.
post #66286 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Is the null being caused by reflections off the back wall?
If the null remains constant as you move across your couch, then it is a length mode null (caused by reflections off the front & back walls). If the null lessens or worsens as you move across your couch, then it is a width mode null (caused by reflections off the left & right walls).
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

So my bass is getting cancelled out by reflections basically?
Sure. If you had an outdoor set-up (like for a back yard party), all these bass problems would disappear. No walls = no reflections. You can't have room mode problems without the room.
post #66287 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

If the null remains constant as you move across your couch, then it is a length mode null (caused by reflections off the front & back walls). If the null lessens or worsens as you move across your couch, then it is a width mode null (caused by reflections off the left & right walls).
Sure. If you had an outdoor set-up (like for a back yard party), all these bass problems would disappear. No walls = no reflections. You can't have room mode problems without the room.



Ok we are getting somewhere, the null varies as I move across my couch. The first thing I'll try is heavy drapes on my windows (which I just bought) because the windows on the left and right walls are approx halfway between my speakers and the seating area.

What can I do with my front wall?
post #66288 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Ok we are getting somewhere, the null varies as I move across my couch.
In that case, if we can figure out a way to use subwoofer placement to minimize nulls and make the bass more consistent across your couch, Audyssey will have an easier time EQing the remaining problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

The first thing I'll try is heavy drapes on my windows (which I just bought) because the windows on the left and right walls are approx halfway between my speakers and the seating area.
The low frequencies won't even notice the drapes exist. Not telling you not to put them up, just letting you know that it won't have much (if any) effect on the bass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

What can I do with my front wall?
Since part of it is missing due to the hallway on the right side, I would use broadband absorption to make the rest of the front wall disappear (acoustically).
post #66289 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

In that case, if we can figure out a way to use subwoofer placement to minimize nulls and make the bass more consistent across your couch, Audyssey will have an easier time EQing the remaining problems.



Ok I see.




The low frequencies won't even notice the drapes exist. Not telling you not to put them up, just letting you know that it won't have much (if any) effect on the bass.



What about a panel their along with the drapes?


Since part of it is missing due to the hallway on the right side, I would use broadband absorption to make the rest of the front wall disappear (acoustically).



I'm not familiar with a broadband panel, it sounds expensive.



Edit;
A quick search online shows they are pretty expensive. What about some regular acoustic panels for now? I'm hoping to get into a new house in a few years.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/29/13 at 4:54pm
post #66290 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Norseman View Post

comfy, is your listening room in a basement, and the floor is a concrete slab on grade?
If so, that explains most of your (lack of) bass problem!
Invest in this book, and consider putting in a 'wood sleeper floor' if its now a concrete slab.
(This book has A LOT of great ideas for improving bass...when room correction software simply isn't getting you there...).


I made the mistake of purchasing Jim's book, IMO. There is way too much "Do it this way, because I have many years of experience, even though I can't explain why". I would not recommend it, but that is just my opinion.

The advice one can get in this thread is much more scientific and fact-based.
post #66291 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm not familiar with a broadband panel, it sounds expensive.



Edit;
A quick search online shows they are pretty expensive. What about some regular acoustic panels for now? I'm hoping to get into a new house in a few years.

A typical 2'x4' broadband panel from a company like GIK Acoustics costs ~$60. That may be expensive to you, but sounds reasonable to me.

What are "regular acoustic panels"?
post #66292 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

What about a panel their along with the drapes?
Won't do much at low frequencies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm not familiar with a broadband panel, it sounds expensive.
You could maybe DIY it with Owens Corning OC703 rigid fiberglass, either 6 inches thick on the wall or 4 inches thick placed 4 inches from the wall. Absorption that is too thin will only absorb higher frequencies, the effective equivalent turning down the treble knob on your receiver. Broadband means full range, typically absorbing down 100-200Hz.
post #66293 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

A typical 2'x4' broadband panel from a company like GIK Acoustics costs ~$60. That may be expensive to you, but sounds reasonable to me.

What are "regular acoustic panels"?



Then I must be looking in the wrong place and I am panel illiterate. Maybe you would share your insight with me Jerry.
post #66294 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Won't do much at low frequencies.
You could maybe DIY it with Owens Corning OC703 rigid fiberglass, either 6 inches thick on the wall or 4 inches thick placed 4 inches from the wall. Absorption that is too thin will only absorb higher frequencies, the effective equivalent turning down the treble knob on your receiver. Broadband means full range, typically absorbing down 100-200Hz.



I know I'm running into a lot of expense but are you saying cover my entire front wall with these? I'm also replacing that panel (TV) in the pics with a 60" one.
post #66295 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I know I'm running into a lot of expense but are you saying cover my entire front wall with these?
I would. But if you want to save on cost, then limit yourself to a few panels placed where your surround speakers reflect off your front wall. If you want to save further cost, rather than using 6-inch thick panels use 4-inch thick panels with an air gap.
post #66296 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I would. But if you want to save on cost, then limit yourself to a few panels placed where your surround speakers reflect off your front wall. If you want to save further cost, rather than using 6-inch thick panels use 4-inch thick panels with an air gap.



I have somewhat of a plan then. I can't get too crazy with this right now but there are some things I can do.

Thank you for the help Sanjay.
post #66297 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Would a bass trap in the left corner by the sub help?
One bass trap? Doubt it.
post #66298 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

One bass trap? Doubt it.



Ok thanks.
post #66299 of 70904
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I have somewhat of a plan then. I can't get too crazy with this right now but there are some things I can do.
One last suggestion, if you're willing: rather than looking for ways to spend money (thick drapes, absorption panels, bass traps), do as much as you can with subwoofer placement. Two reasons why: it's free (moving subs doesn't cost you anything) and it isn't permanent (if you don't like the results, move them back).
post #66300 of 70904
I totally support with this approach.
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