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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2214

post #66391 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yep - always a compromise isn’t it?  What I would really like is an AVR that had all the extraneous cr&p that I will never used stripped out of it. I am thinking networks stuff, zone stuff, a thousand DSPs I will never go near, video processing, the full CMS that my unit has and so on and on. But then someone will say "hey - those are the very features I want most, man". And they have a point. So the AVR manufacturers put everything in to give them the broadest possible market appeal, and in doing so they create the highest possible volume of sales - and that brings the price down. So, in reality, I am not paying a cent for all those features, and their very inclusion probably means I am paying less for the full bells & whistles unit than I would for my stripped-down unit.



I think you need your own AVR company, they would sell like hot cakes smile.gif I heard one dealer calling mine the "kitchen sink' of pre's, I found out he also sold $8,000 to $10,000 pre's and I had to question his statement. Imagine the mark up on them at that price point. It is what it is and I can't afford to put 10 grand in a single piece.
post #66392 of 70892
Wake you up in the middle of the night, just to hear them say....

Sorry, couldn't resist. cool.giftongue.gifbiggrin.gif
post #66393 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

That's an interesting point Keith. smile.gif I'm like you that I'd rather do without all the network and VP crap myself, but I hadn't thought about how these features may well bring the price down anyway.

I re ran my 8 point calibration after adding front heights and I got great results though interesting that the same side surround speakers were measured at 90Hz instead of 80Hz as per my last calibration. Maybe just slight variations/tolerances I suppose. In any case it sounds good and the front heights seem a worthwhile addition (no room for wides) so I'll have to save up for something better than the current M&K K15 to better match with my LCR MK MP150s...

 

Yeah, I think volume manufacturing is one of the most significant factors in the selling price of these things.

 

With Audyssey Pro, there is a list of preferred crossovers in descending order of merit. I never get the same list twice!  The same crossovers are usually in the list but in a different order each time. I attribute this to small differences in mic location for the different calibrations. There would also be small variations in temperature and humidity too but I doubt if these would be all that significant in practice. With the 'consumer' versions of Audyssey there is, of course, no 'list' of preferred XOs - just the one recommended is the one set by the AVR, so it isn’t as easy as it is with Pro to see how the recommended order changes each time. But I assume it still happens. Small mic position variations can have a disproportionately large impact when I measure with REW, so I assume it is similar with Audyssey and the crossovers. It may be significant that Jerry, who is uber-meticulous with his mic positions from run to run, always gets the same recommended XOs IIRC.

 

I like my Height speakers a lot. I use PLIIz to 'drive' them rather than DSX. I have an all-M&K speaker setup as you know (S150s and ST150 Tripoles) and for my Heights some fairly cheap M&K LCR55s. They seem to be OK as Height speakers but I have often considered changing them. What would be your suggestion if money etc was not a consideration?  I very nearly bought another pair of ST150 Tripoles off eBay a few weeks ago to try as Heights - using them in their 'direct radiator' mode.

post #66394 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yep - always a compromise isn’t it?  What I would really like is an AVR that had all the extraneous cr&p that I will never used stripped out of it. I am thinking networks stuff, zone stuff, a thousand DSPs I will never go near, video processing, the full CMS that my unit has and so on and on. But then someone will say "hey - those are the very features I want most, man". And they have a point. So the AVR manufacturers put everything in to give them the broadest possible market appeal, and in doing so they create the highest possible volume of sales - and that brings the price down. So, in reality, I am not paying a cent for all those features, and their very inclusion probably means I am paying less for the full bells & whistles unit than I would for my stripped-down unit.



I think you need your own AVR company, they would sell like hot cakes smile.gif I heard one dealer calling mine the "kitchen sink' of pre's, I found out he also sold $8,000 to $10,000 pre's and I had to question his statement. Imagine the mark up on them at that price point. It is what it is and I can't afford to put 10 grand in a single piece.

 

Nor would the 10 grand, in all probability, make the slightest audible difference anyway.

post #66395 of 70892
I have definitive techs studio monitor 350s and a mythos 8 center. What does audyssey set the crossover for them at 50hz? My surrounds are at 100 and my front heights are at 50 as well actually. Why so low?
post #66396 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Sutliff View Post

I have definitive techs studio monitor 350s and a mythos 8 center. What does audyssey set the crossover for them at 50hz? My surrounds are at 100 and my front heights are at 50 as well actually. Why so low?

c)1.   Why are my Crossovers set differently to my speaker manufacturer's specification?

post #66397 of 70892
Thanks for the link. Very good info. So would you set my fronts to 80? Or what would you do in my situation?
post #66398 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Sutliff View Post
  Thanks for the link. Very good info. So would you set my fronts to 80? Or what would you do in my situation?

 

I’d set them at 80Hz and then have a listen. If all sounds good, leave them there. Remember it's OK to raise the XO from the Audyssey setting but not to lower it. More info here:

 

c)2.   Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?

 

c)4.   Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?

post #66399 of 70892
Ok thanks
post #66400 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Sutliff View Post

Ok thanks

 

You're welcome. Come back if you still have any issues after changing the XOs.

post #66401 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I like my Height speakers a lot. I use PLIIz to 'drive' them rather than DSX. I have an all-M&K speaker setup as you know (S150s and ST150 Tripoles) and for my Heights some fairly cheap M&K LCR55s. They seem to be OK as Height speakers but I have often considered changing them. What would be your suggestion if money etc was not a consideration?  I very nearly bought another pair of ST150 Tripoles off eBay a few weeks ago to try as Heights - using them in their 'direct radiator' mode.

I'm using PLIIz at the moment since I haven't yet got my matching MP150 centre yet so DSX isn't available in the menu with no centre.

I'm considering IW85 as front heights as I saw a thread on AVF where someone made little MDF 'boxes' to wall mount the IW85 in (he had them as side and back surrounds). They would be even more discrete than the Titanium finshed K15s I've pinched from my conservatory set up (the MP150 as hard to spot against my dark painted wall but another pair of MP150 is nearly 2 grand which is hard to justify for heights). I'd also like another pair of S150T for the surround backs (using older M&K K4 at the moment but they are very 'thin' sounding compared to the S150T), but may also try the IW85 in this position as well since the backs might be better suited being monopole.

I took a lot of care over the mic position (using a camera tripod) and ran the basic set up a few times until I got exactly the same distances for each speaker pair (my MPL is dead centre widthways in the room so I don't progress to the full 8 point until I know the mic is in this exact spot). The last time it measured the MP150 as 70Hz and the S150T as 80Hz, this time 10Hz higher in each case, but no big deal as I raised the fronts to 120Hz as this seemed to produce a better overall bass from my pair of subs.

I measured the SPL levels manually afterwards and all the speakers matched, but the subs were 4-5dB lower according the SPL meter, so I have raised the level. I made a point of setting the sub level to exactly 75dB and the 818 trim was -0.5dB so it seems to be in the right zone. I suppose it's more of a preference running the subs a little hot, but it'll be interesting to see how I get on once I build my pair of sealed 15" DIY subs (and re run Audyssey again of course). I tend to find the set up leaves the bass sounding a little 'thin' (I previously had an Antimode EQing my subs before I had the 818).
post #66402 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I like my Height speakers a lot. I use PLIIz to 'drive' them rather than DSX. I have an all-M&K speaker setup as you know (S150s and ST150 Tripoles) and for my Heights some fairly cheap M&K LCR55s. They seem to be OK as Height speakers but I have often considered changing them. What would be your suggestion if money etc was not a consideration?  I very nearly bought another pair of ST150 Tripoles off eBay a few weeks ago to try as Heights - using them in their 'direct radiator' mode.

I'm using PLIIz at the moment since I haven't yet got my matching MP150 centre yet so DSX isn't available in the menu with no centre.

 

Ah yes - DSX derives the height info from the front left and right channels, so without a centre speaker, dialogue would find its way up into the Height speakers. PLIIz derives the info from the surround channels. i much prefer PLIIz Height but YMMV of course. DTS Neo:X is also interesting and I use it sometimes.

 

Quote:

 I'm considering IW85 as front heights as I saw a thread on AVF where someone made little MDF 'boxes' to wall mount the IW85 in (he had them as side and back surrounds). They would be even more discrete than the Titanium finshed K15s I've pinched from my conservatory set up (the MP150 as hard to spot against my dark painted wall but another pair of MP150 is nearly 2 grand which is hard to justify for heights). I'd also like another pair of S150T for the surround backs (using older M&K K4 at the moment but they are very 'thin' sounding compared to the S150T), but may also try the IW85 in this position as well since the backs might be better suited being monopole.

 

MP150s would be wasted as Height speakers IMO, regardless of the cost factor. I love the S150Ts (which I keep calling ST150s for some reason) but they don't often come up on the used market and I am reluctant to pay £1,500 for a pair of Height speakers! I recently just missed a pair (sold before I saw the ad) which was frustrating.

 

Quote:

 I took a lot of care over the mic position (using a camera tripod) and ran the basic set up a few times until I got exactly the same distances for each speaker pair (my MPL is dead centre widthways in the room so I don't progress to the full 8 point until I know the mic is in this exact spot). The last time it measured the MP150 as 70Hz and the S150T as 80Hz, this time 10Hz higher in each case, but no big deal as I raised the fronts to 120Hz as this seemed to produce a better overall bass from my pair of subs.

 

No big deal as you say. If the last time it was right in the cusp on 70Hz then I guess it only takes a decibel or so to tip it one way or the other.

 

Quote:

 I measured the SPL levels manually afterwards and all the speakers matched, but the subs were 4-5dB lower according the SPL meter, so I have raised the level. I made a point of setting the sub level to exactly 75dB and the 818 trim was -0.5dB so it seems to be in the right zone. I suppose it's more of a preference running the subs a little hot, but it'll be interesting to see how I get on once I build my pair of sealed 15" DIY subs (and re run Audyssey again of course). I tend to find the set up leaves the bass sounding a little 'thin' (I previously had an Antimode EQing my subs before I had the 818).
 
Subs usually measure less on a typical SPL meter it seems. I use REW and my calibrated mic to check levels. I find the bass can sound a little thin too post-Audyssey and usually tweak it up a bit. Currently I am running just 1.5dB hotter than Audyssey wanted. Just preference. I was running 3dB hot but eventually decided this was too much and dialled it back to 1.5dB. I also use DEQ, but I tend to listen at -6dB typically so TBH DEQ isn't doing all that much at that MV setting.
post #66403 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

smile.gif And still those voices are calling from far away...
And out in the Hotel California, "...we are programmed to receive...". ;-D
post #66404 of 70892
Do the Denon or Onkyo AVR's have the feature like Marantz M-max where you can boost the highs a little? There is low, medium and high on mine and it works very nicely for internet radio or highly compressed music. It also put back what PLII took away as far as the highs go.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/31/13 at 12:38pm
post #66405 of 70892
On Denon AVRs this feature is called "Restorer" (low, medium, high).
post #66406 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

On Denon AVRs this feature is called "Restorer" (low, medium, high).



It works really well IMO. I also adjusted the PLII and took a little of the center channel (center width) out of the mains, I went from the default of 3 to 1 and it seems like it added some bass to my LP. Why I have no idea?
post #66407 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

It works really well IMO. I also adjusted the PLII and took a little of the center channel (center width) out of the mains, I went from the default of 3 to 1 and it seems like it added some bass to my LP. Why I have no idea?

DPL II is very good at extracting from stereo on the 8801 once you find the right combo using the parameter settings which are very flexible at getting the presentation you want! There is one more setting adjustable along with center width to further dial it in, coupled with Audyssey and for the first time in my lifeafter owing many pre's and avr's its the first time I would actually use such a feature to alter 2/ch. kudos to the 8801 and why I call it a Zen Master at allthings multi/ch wink.gif
post #66408 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

DPL II is very good at extracting from stereo on the 8801 once you find the right combo using the parameter settings which are very flexible at getting the presentation you want! There is one more setting adjustable along with center width to further dial it in, coupled with Audyssey and for the first time in my lifeafter owing many pre's and avr's its the first time I would actually use such a feature to alter 2/ch. kudos to the 8801 and why I call it a Zen Master at allthings multi/ch wink.gif



Agreed and I'll say it again getting to know your gear pays huge dividends. I wrote PLII off years ago because I thought it murdered the highs but with some simple adjustments I'm really liking it. No more multi ch stereo for me.

What other setting, the dimension setting?
post #66409 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Agreed and I'll say it again getting to know your gear pays huge dividends. I wrote PLII off years ago because I thought it murdered the highs but with some simple adjustments I'm really liking it. No more multi ch stereo for me.

What other setting, the dimension setting?[/quote]

Yep and also a third ! I found it hard to settle as it was so good on more than a few combo's but here's the selection

1.) Panorama ( on or off)

2.) Dimension (adjustable)

3.) center width (adjustable)

And not to mention a DEQ offset of 5 wink.gif
post #66410 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Agreed and I'll say it again getting to know your gear pays huge dividends. I wrote PLII off years ago because I thought it murdered the highs but with some simple adjustments I'm really liking it. No more multi ch stereo for me.

What other setting, the dimension setting?[/quote]

Yep and also a third ! I found it hard to settle as it was so good on more than a few combo's but here's the selection

1.) Panorama ( on or off)

2.) Dimension (adjustable)

3.) center width (adjustable)

And not to mention a DEQ offset of 5 wink.gif



Ok the RLO offset of 5 you use?
post #66411 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Ok the RLO offset of 5 you use?

I've found it to be the best the fit for 75-80% multi/ch sacd and other well recorded music and most streaming sources as it doesn't add too much boost to the surrounds . As for really well mastered stuff 0 is best for movies and my reference sacds. Of course there is off when playing loud enough and no boost or compensation is desired, but its a button touch away to fine tune when needed.
post #66412 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I've found it to be the best the fit for 75-80% multi/ch sacd and other well recorded music and most streaming sources as it doesn't add too much boost to the surrounds . As for really well mastered stuff 0 is best for movies and my reference sacds. Of course there is off when playing loud enough and no boost or compensation is desired, but its a button touch away to fine tune when needed.



That's one thing I haven't messed with much but I will have to soon.
post #66413 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

It works really well IMO. I also adjusted the PLII and took a little of the center channel (center width) out of the mains, I went from the default of 3 to 1 and it seems like it added some bass to my LP. Why I have no idea?

So is theres feature on onkyo to boost the highs? i have the Tx Sr607. Im not super happy with PLIIz but i have heights and no room for wides or rears so thats what im stuck with
post #66414 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Sutliff View Post

So is theres feature on onkyo to boost the highs? i have the Tx Sr607. Im not super happy with PLIIz but i have heights and no room for wides or rears so thats what im stuck with



I've never had a Onkyo but others on here do, maybe they will comment, or you could post on the Onkyo thread. I would assume they have such a feature.
post #66415 of 70892
Thank you Comfy. Hopefully someone does. it will make a huge difference in my room. ill go post in the onkyo thread
post #66416 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Sutliff View Post

Thank you Comfy. Hopefully someone does. it will make a huge difference in my room. ill go post in the onkyo thread



No problem, keep adjusting and you'll find what your looking for.
post #66417 of 70892
Brad - Have you tried using the Audyssey "Music" curve instead of the standard curve? The "Music" curve doesn't incorporate any high freq roll-off so it should boost the hights relatively.
post #66418 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Sutliff View Post

So is theres feature on onkyo to boost the highs? i have the Tx Sr607. Im not super happy with PLIIz but i have heights and no room for wides or rears so thats what im stuck with

You should have tone controls on your Onkyo if that's what you are looking for, my Integra/Onkyo has them but I don't use them.
post #66419 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Brad - Have you tried using the Audyssey "Music" curve instead of the standard curve? The "Music" curve doesn't incorporate any high freq roll-off so it should boost the hights relatively.

How do I do that? I don't have the top of the line audessey.
post #66420 of 70892
Brad try Audyssey flat for music. Go into Audyssey through your audio menu and the first setting up top should allow you to switch from Audyssey reference to flat.
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