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post #66841 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I understand the reasoning wink.gif
But there are those that don't think you get the same impact (so to speak) as you do with more power. Or they would make all speakers this sensitive. I have a Harman company speaker that is not very sensitive and they make more sensitive speakers also.

Comfynumb,

Having been hanging around here a while I have learned that sometimes when I absolutely believe I'm thinking clearly and know what's going on, I discover that I was wrong or perhaps didn't know enough about the topic. Perhaps I'm having one of those moments. You mentioned that Harman thinks that, delivering the same SPL, less sensitive speakers given higher power may sound better than more sensitive speakers given less power.

I really would like to read about the reasons for this from Harman. Could you provide me with a link to those references?

Thanks
post #66842 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Comfynumb,

Having been hanging around here a while I have learned that sometimes when I absolutely believe I'm thinking clearly and know what's going on, I discover that I was wrong or perhaps didn't know enough about the topic. Perhaps I'm having one of those moments. You mentioned that Harman thinks that, delivering the same SPL, less sensitive speakers given higher power may sound better than more sensitive speakers given less power.

I really would like to read about the reasons for this from Harman. Could you provide me with a link to those references?

Thanks



I never said Harman thought that I said there are "those" that believe this. All I'm saying is if we all liked sensitive speakers that's all they would make. That's all I said, now can we move on please? If I'm wrong about any of my statements then I'm wrong and I retract them.
post #66843 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I never said Harman thought that I said there are "those" that believe this. All I'm saying is if we all liked sensitive speakers that's all they would make. That's all I said, now can we move on please? If I'm wrong about any of my statements then I'm wrong and I retract them.

There is a way to revert this sensitivity issue back to the Audyssey thread. Basically, there are 3 kinds of speakers: low sensitivity, medium sensitivity and high sensitivity speakers. smile.gif

A low sensitivity speaker may have a chance that Audyssey in your room will max. out the trims on the positive side, while the high sensitivity ones may do the same on the negative side. (We've seen many examples of high sensitivity speakers here with the solution to use an RCA attenuator when using an AVP/Power Amp combo.)

Best is to go for medium sensitivity speakers, while I'll leave it to you to determine that rate based on the size of your room and the distance of MLP from your speakers.cool.gif
post #66844 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I never said Harman thought that, I said there are "those" that believe this.

Ok, sorry. I misunderstood the exchange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I understand the reasoning wink.gif
But there are those that don't think you get the same impact (so to speak) as you do with more power..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Not sure who "they" are, but that makes no sense. smile.gif .

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

They are Harman and huh?
post #66845 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

....delivering the same SPL, less sensitive speakers given higher power may sound better than more sensitive speakers given less power.

Don't have an opinion or any knowledge on this, but: many people who do have such knowledge say that most speaker manufacturers are loathe to speak of the phenomena of driver compression. Many of their offerings do not measure up well. More sensitive speakers tend to be more affected apparently. Don't shoot the meta-messenger...and I haven't followed the whole discussion.
post #66846 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


EDIT: In my original post, quoted above, I mistakenly gave the sensitivity of my speakers as 89dB - on checking it turns out to be 90dB.

The THX PM3 approval for my monitors is for the nearfield distance of 1 meter. That's one area that the PM3 rating differs from the consumer ULTRA standard.

I also realized that for active monitors/speakers it's not just as simple as adding the separate amp wattage ratings together and using that as the number.You would have to enter each amp/driver combo of RMS wattage and driver sensitivity into that type of calculator separately.

So, with an exact distance entered of 1.86 meters/6.1 ft for the woofer section of one of my front 3 HR824's with what I believe is a 89db sensitivity driver plus the 150 watts RMS from the amp,I would only safety reach 102dB at the seating position. For the tweeter section it would be 100dB with the RMS amp output of 100 watts and if the tweeter had a sensitivity of 89dB. I can't seem to find the sensitivity ratings for the original HR824 now.

For the HR624's at the exact distance of 1.37 meters/4.5 ft for the woofer section with 100 watts RMS with a 89dB sensitivity driver,I would only reach 103dB at the seating position.For the tweeter section with a 91dB sensitivity and 40 watts RMS amp it would only be 101dB at the seating position.

Some of those amp output ratings from Mackie are also into 4 or 6 ohms depending on the driver and speaker model.Lot's of variables to take into account.

The Crown calculator also states:

The calculations discussed here apply to anechoic or outdoor conditions. If the sound system is inside a venue, the room reverberation will increase the SPL typically by 6 dB. You can use this room gain as extra headroom.


What about the Audyssey correction filters and how they boost or cut frequencies differently for each speaker? That would also affect how much headroom and clean output you could reach at the listening position for each speaker.
post #66847 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Ok, sorry. I misunderstood the exchange.




For the record this is what I said;



Originally Posted by comfynumb

I understand the reasoning
But there are those that don't think you get the same impact (so to speak) as you do with more power. Or they would make all speakers this sensitive. I have a Harman company speaker that is not very sensitive and they make more sensitive speakers also.
post #66848 of 70896
The SPL for a given speaker and amplifier power in a given room can be estimated, but some basic information about the room is required:

http://www.kvalsvoll.com/Articles/AudioCalculators.htm
post #66849 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

Don't have an opinion or any knowledge on this, but: many people who do have such knowledge say that most speaker manufacturers are loathe to speak of the phenomena of driver compression. Many of their offerings do not measure up well. More sensitive speakers tend to be more affected apparently. Don't shoot the meta-messenger...and I haven't followed the whole discussion.

Thanks, interesting. Do have any links you could share?
post #66850 of 70896
^ Not really. I have noodled on and off with building speakers/subs, just as a DIY project because I needed something to DIY...builders syndrome. Didn't want to build something I could just (affordably) buy, against my personal rules for worthwhile DIY. So I ran across the info in my reading travels, but don't pretend to understand it, I'm terrible with mechanical things.
post #66851 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I understand the reasoning wink.gif
But there are those that don't think you get the same impact (so to speak) as you do with more power. Or they would make all speakers this sensitive. I have a Harman company speaker that is not very sensitive and they make more sensitive speakers also.
 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Not sure who "they" are, but that makes no sense.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

They are Harman and huh? What ohm are your speakers? My point is there are different ways to get to reference or above where my speakers can play. If what you stated is true then there would be no need for non sensitive speakers and you wouldn't be driving your speakers with 2,000 watts right?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I really would like to read about the reasons for this from Harman. Could you provide me with a link to those references?
 

I never said Harman thought that I said there are "those" that believe this. All I'm saying is if we all liked sensitive speakers that's all they would make. That's all I said, now can we move on please? If I'm wrong about any of my statements then I'm wrong and I retract them.

 

Er.... you did say Harman .... it's quoted above :eek: 

 

Did you not read the post where I explained why it is not possible to 'just make' sensitive speakers - I explained that the sensitivity was a result of several and various different design decisions. 

 

I can understand why you want to move on :)  But at least you have realised you were wrong (I think).


Edited by kbarnes701 - 11/11/13 at 3:27am
post #66852 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


EDIT: In my original post, quoted above, I mistakenly gave the sensitivity of my speakers as 89dB - on checking it turns out to be 90dB.

The THX PM3 approval for my monitors is for the nearfield distance of 1 meter. That's one area that the PM3 rating differs from the consumer ULTRA standard.

 

Ah right sorry - I missed that yours were PM3 rated.

 

 

Quote:

I also realized that for active monitors/speakers it's not just as simple as adding the separate amp wattage ratings together and using that as the number.You would have to enter each amp/driver combo of RMS wattage and driver sensitivity into that type of calculator separately.

So, with an exact distance entered of 1.86 meters/6.1 ft for the woofer section of one of my front 3 HR824's with what I believe is a 89db sensitivity driver plus the 150 watts RMS from the amp,I would only safety reach 102dB at the seating position. For the tweeter section it would be 100dB with the RMS amp output of 100 watts and if the tweeter had a sensitivity of 89dB. I can't seem to find the sensitivity ratings for the original HR824 now.

For the HR624's at the exact distance of 1.37 meters/4.5 ft for the woofer section with 100 watts RMS with a 89dB sensitivity driver,I would only reach 103dB at the seating position.For the tweeter section with a 91dB sensitivity and 40 watts RMS amp it would only be 101dB at the seating position.

Some of those amp output ratings from Mackie are also into 4 or 6 ohms depending on the driver and speaker model.Lot's of variables to take into account.

 

Good points about active monitors. AFAIK all the online calculators assume passive monitors when calculating required amp power. The active speaker specs that I have seen usually give the maximum SPL the speaker can attain which is really all we need to know. (I have always been interested in active speakers and would have bought the active versions of the M&K S150 if it wasn't for the fact that they cost three times as much - over 10 grand for three.

 

 

Quote:

 The Crown calculator also states:

The calculations discussed here apply to anechoic or outdoor conditions. If the sound system is inside a venue, the room reverberation will increase the SPL typically by 6 dB. You can use this room gain as extra headroom.

 

I can’t find that anywhere on the Calculator page at Crown: http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

 

 

Quote:

 What about the Audyssey correction filters and how they boost or cut frequencies differently for each speaker? That would also affect how much headroom and clean output you could reach at the listening position for each speaker.
 

That is true but I don't follow why it matters - the measured SPL at the MLP is what it is, after Audyssey correction filters have been applied.  Oh - I think I see what you mean - you mean the calculators don't take it into account?  As I said somewhere else, the most reliable way to know if one is hitting Reference at the MLP is just to measure it, in-room. At best the calculators are only a guide.

post #66853 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post




Er.... you did say Harman .... it's quoted above eek.gif  

Did you not read the post where I explained why it is not possible to 'just make' sensitive speakers - I explained that the sensitivity was a result of several and various different design decisions. 

I can understand why you want to move on smile.gif  But at least you have realised you were wrong (I think).





You guys are killing me what I originally said is all there and words were mixed in by you guys to suit your needs. Now please for the love of God and country give it a rest!
post #66854 of 70896
READ THE ENTIRE POST I MADE WHICH SHOULD EXPLAIN THINGS! They means there are others that believe this not Harman. I think it's time for a moderator because I won't have my words twisted and be bullied on this thread by a couple that think they own it.
post #66855 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

You guys are killing me what I originally said is all there and words were mixed in by you guys to suit your needs. Now please for the love of God and country give it a rest!

lol This thread was taken over by a group of "Arbiters of the Thread" a long time ago. Some of the old timers are long gone, others check in occasionally, Chris from Audyssey decided it was not a good use of his time. Information about the use of Audyssey is best gotten directly from Audyssey unless you really want to wade through the clutter.
post #66856 of 70896
move on please

tia
post #66857 of 70896
Wow, you folks take your audio talk VERY seriously don't you? biggrin.gif
post #66858 of 70896
Yes you and others have helped me and I appreciate it Keith! My apologies to you and the thread, sorry guys.
post #66859 of 70896
Below are all my comments on the topic. I never "busted your balls" or "bullied" you. Never even said you were wrong. In fact, I admitted it could be me that was wrong and that I misunderstood your comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Not sure who "they" are, but that makes no sense. smile.gif I've never seen an amp measure better and produce less distortion as power output increases, nor have I seen a driver where distortion does not rise as excursion increases.

It is also entirely opposite my experience. My speakers are 101 dB sensitive and I'm driving them with a 2000 watt/channel amp for the exact opposite reasons you've mentioned. smile.gif The goal being ultra low distortion at reference. Hard for me to imagine much more in the way of dynamics and impact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Not jumping down your throat. Note smileys smile.gif.

Sorry to have different opinion/experience. No worries, just really wondering the reason behind your opinion. But consider it dropped. smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I agree entirely with that.

Its this that I just can't understand the science behind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Comfynumb,

Having been hanging around here a while I have learned that sometimes when I absolutely believe I'm thinking clearly and know what's going on, I discover that I was wrong or perhaps didn't know enough about the topic. Perhaps I'm having one of those moments. You mentioned that Harman thinks that, delivering the same SPL, less sensitive speakers given higher power may sound better than more sensitive speakers given less power.

I really would like to read about the reasons for this from Harman. Could you provide me with a link to those references?

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Ok, sorry. I misunderstood the exchange.

post #66860 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Yes you and others have helped me and I appreciate it Keith! My apologies to you and the thread, sorry guys.

 

Ooh - I just came to delete that last post of mine as I was writing it when Mark asked us to move on, but he seems to have done it for me!  Apologies, Mark - I was composing while you posted your 'move on' request. 

 

OK, no worries. Sometimes things get heated - it's a sign of passion about the hobby I guess :)  As dropzone says, perhaps we take it too seriously sometimes. Thanks for the apology and please accept my own apology to you - it was not my intention to make you feel bullied. To infinity and beyond..... :)

post #66861 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Ooh - I just came to delete that last post of mine as I was writing it when Mark asked us to move on, but he seems to have done it for me!  Apologies, Mark - I was composing while you posted your 'move on' request. 

OK, no worries. Sometimes things get heated - it's a sign of passion about the hobby I guess smile.gif  As dropzone says, perhaps we take it too seriously sometimes. Thanks for the apology and please accept my own apology to you - it was not my intention to make you feel bullied. To infinity and beyond..... smile.gif

Well, I'm sure to some degree we are all passionate about the hobby or we wouldn't be here. I had to go crawl into the fetal position and cry when you guys told me my speakers were lacking and would not play to reference. biggrin.gif
post #66862 of 70896
Again my apologies to Keith, Gooddoc and the entire thread for acting like an arse.
post #66863 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone7 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Ooh - I just came to delete that last post of mine as I was writing it when Mark asked us to move on, but he seems to have done it for me!  Apologies, Mark - I was composing while you posted your 'move on' request. 

OK, no worries. Sometimes things get heated - it's a sign of passion about the hobby I guess smile.gif  As dropzone says, perhaps we take it too seriously sometimes. Thanks for the apology and please accept my own apology to you - it was not my intention to make you feel bullied. To infinity and beyond..... smile.gif

Well, I'm sure to some degree we are all passionate about the hobby or we wouldn't be here. I had to go crawl into the fetal position and cry when you guys told me my speakers were lacking and would not play to reference. biggrin.gif

 

ROTFLMAO!!!!  I think we have all had moments like that!  :D

post #66864 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Again my apologies to Keith, Gooddoc and the entire thread for acting like an arse.

 

No worries, buddy. (BTW, I didn't know you had arses in the States. I thought you all had asses?  LOL!!)  

post #66865 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone7 View Post

Well, I'm sure to some degree we are all passionate about the hobby or we wouldn't be here. I had to go crawl into the fetal position and cry when you guys told me my speakers were lacking and would not play to reference. biggrin.gif

This is only the warmup, Try the REW thread to truly understand the depths (or should I say the commitment biggrin.gif) to which the dedicated will go in pursuit of improving their HT room....tongue.gif
post #66866 of 70896
Two words: ceiling fan
post #66867 of 70896

Four words:  give it a rest!   ;)

post #66868 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Two words: ceiling fan

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

Four words:  give it a rest!   ;)

 

LOL. I sympathise with your ceiling fan issue. I strongly suspect I have a nasty little reflection off my projector!  It's hard to get rid of the PJ in search of sonic perfection ;)

post #66869 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post



LOL. I sympathise with your ceiling fan issue. I strongly suspect I have a nasty little reflection off my projector!  It's hard to get rid of the PJ in search of sonic perfection wink.gif

The biggest reflection issue of all: one word, three letters. W-A-F eek.gif
post #66870 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post



LOL. I sympathise with your ceiling fan issue. I strongly suspect I have a nasty little reflection off my projector!  It's hard to get rid of the PJ in search of sonic perfection wink.gif

The biggest reflection issue of all: one word, three letters. W-A-F eek.gif

 

Two words to deal with that: dedicated room. :)

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