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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2241

post #67201 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Actually, when measuring the pre-outs there is no microphone involved. Just the signal is being measured directly on the AVR.

Of course pre-out is a purely electrical measurement, but I think Keith means "same, unmoved mic positions" when running on-board XT32 and running Pro again allowing the Audyssey algorithm to calculate the final filter curve. Does that make sense? smile.gif
Edited by mogorf - 11/20/13 at 10:45am
post #67202 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's a good point, SoM. But I can’t see how measuring the preouts can be anything less than unequivocal. Your example implies interpretation of the test results - but what interpretation is needed for preout measurements?  One measurement shows the impact of XT32 on the signal, the other shows the impact of Pro on the signal. Same, unmoved, mic positions used. Where's the interpretation needed?

Actually, when measuring the pre-outs there is no microphone involved. Just the signal is being measured directly on the AVR.

 

LOL - of course.... d'oh! :)  Even better...

post #67203 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstloukal1 View Post

sounds good on that. It maybe that the posts i focused on were the ones that had the issue that is why i am bringing my concern up. I tend to focus on those as it will give me some guidence if i do see things going on. I will no longer consider this a concern till it actually becomes a concern. My plans are to get everything geared up to start the process this weekend. Just need to find a time when i can get the family out of the house so i can have some peace an quiet.

 

Cool. Be sure to come back and let us know how you get on.

post #67204 of 70895
Here is what i would like to do as a plan of attack. I have 2 receivers. The denon 2313ci and 3313ci. Both are recent purchases. I would like to try a comparison of how the 2 work for my system and listening area. I will then go with the one that performs better for my needs. what i am trying to figure out now is how to also incorporate REW into this whole thing. since i have the sms-1 for measuring i am debating if I need to use REW also.
post #67205 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstloukal1 View Post

Here is what i would like to do as a plan of attack. I have 2 receivers. The denon 2313ci and 3313ci. Both are recent purchases. I would like to try a comparison of how the 2 work for my system and listening area. I will then go with the one that performs better for my needs. what i am trying to figure out now is how to also incorporate REW into this whole thing. since i have the sms-1 for measuring i am debating if I need to use REW also.

 

I do not believe that electronics are going to make differences to the sound quality you hear, so I would go with the one that has the features I need most. Both those units have Audyssey XT. The really big difference, which you will hear very easily, is between XT and XT32. If you can stretch to a unit with XT32 that will definitely be a worthwhile upgrade, and comparison.

 

REW is about 1,000,029 times more sophisticated and useful than the measuring capability of the SMS-1.

post #67206 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstloukal1 View Post

Here is what i would like to do as a plan of attack. I have 2 receivers. The denon 2313ci and 3313ci. Both are recent purchases. I would like to try a comparison of how the 2 work for my system and listening area. I will then go with the one that performs better for my needs. what i am trying to figure out now is how to also incorporate REW into this whole thing. since i have the sms-1 for measuring i am debating if I need to use REW also.

No intention to discurage you, but I doubt you are going to spot any audible differences in SQ between the two Denons, especially that both have MultEQ XT on-board. Let's see. smile.gif
post #67207 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstloukal1 View Post

Here is what i would like to do as a plan of attack. I have 2 receivers. The denon 2313ci and 3313ci. Both are recent purchases. I would like to try a comparison of how the 2 work for my system and listening area. I will then go with the one that performs better for my needs. what i am trying to figure out now is how to also incorporate REW into this whole thing. since i have the sms-1 for measuring i am debating if I need to use REW also.

For $100 all in, it is difficult to not get REW! Haha. The sheer ability of the program to look at all different aspects of your setup is wonderful, but it does make one a bit OCD after a while! I also agree, the differences between the two Denon's will be inaudible to say the least. I did similar years ago when I moved from 2311 to 3311 as I wanted the network ability, then 3311 to 4311 as I wanted xt32, and the only sound difference that was noticeable was between the 3311 and the 4311 with the much improved audyssey program.
post #67208 of 70895
ok on that. My initial thought is that i would not see much of a difference but thought i would see something in the readings that may sway me one way or another. i figured why not give it a go as 1 of these is going into the game room and wanted to judge which one to put in there. But if it will be futile as the differences will be insignificant then why spin my wheels and just not spend a little more time on the main setup. I have downloaded the REW a bit ago to familiarize myself with it and have ordered the umik-1. My issue is once i start on a path its hard to stop. I decided to start into the processing to find a simple non complicated way to just even out my sub and guess what 2 receivers, 1 sms-1, 1 REW download and a umik-1 later here i am. not sure this was the least comlplicated way to go about this. And to note i am working on a new sub so this will move even further. urgh
post #67209 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's a good point, SoM. But I can’t see how measuring the preouts can be anything less than unequivocal. Your example implies interpretation of the test results - but what interpretation is needed for preout measurements?  One measurement shows the impact of XT32 on the signal, the other shows the impact of Pro on the signal. Same, unmoved, mic positions used. Where's the interpretation needed?

Actually, when measuring the pre-outs there is no microphone involved. Just the signal is being measured directly on the AVR.

 

LOL - of course.... d'oh! :)  Even better...

 

Not to be pedantic but doesn't mic position variability come into play during the separate XT32 and Pro calibrations?  HST, I'm sure no one gets their mic placements in a more repeatable position than Jerry but I would think there is still some difference in the post calibration response measurements (preouts or actual in room response) related to the two different calibration setups?!  The only way I see to take this completely out of the equation is to have an 8 mic setup but this introduces all sorts of other problems to conquer / additional variables to consider.

post #67210 of 70895
If that is as bad as it has been for you since your join date this time last year, you are far better off than many...
post #67211 of 70895
I would concur that (1) the rare mysterious phenomenon of excessive low bass boost is a negligible concern and (2) there is zero reason to expect ANY audible difference between those nearly identical receivers. The primary difference between the 2313 and 3313 is features (eg preouts for an external amp, independent zone HDMI output, 3rd zone) so that should be the basis for your decision; I wouldn't even waste time trying to do an A/B comparison of sound quality.

The ONLY area where there MIGHT be an audible difference is raw 2ch music since the 3313 features Denon's proprietary AL24 upsampling, which works on PCM signals on the L/R channels. In theory this should yield slightly improved smoothness and detail with stereo music, but IMO it's a non factor unless you are an avid 2ch purist.
post #67212 of 70895
Quick question... below is a rush job panoramic shot of my room. I'm wondering if when running Audyssey, should I set the mic above my couch rear? I usually put it on a tripod and lean it against the center seat and raise it just above to clear the edge of the back of the couch. Then for the forward measurements I extend one lef of the tripod and set it about a foot forward from where I took the first measurements... Am I doint it right?

My receiver is an NR-1008.

post #67213 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derko View Post

Quick question... below is a rush job panoramic shot of my room. I'm wondering if when running Audyssey, should I set the mic above my couch rear? I usually put it on a tripod and lean it against the center seat and raise it just above to clear the edge of the back of the couch. Then for the forward measurements I extend one lef of the tripod and set it about a foot forward from where I took the first measurements... Am I doint it right?

My receiver is an NR-1008.

 

The mic must be two feet away from that back wall at ear height. If ear height is below the couch back, then raise the mic to clear it. If moving the mic 2 feet from the back wall makes the mic at least 12 inches from the couch back, then there is no real need to raise it, especially with a non-leather couch. 

 

Before you run Audyssey I would drag that centre speaker so that the front of it slightly overhangs (1 inch) the front of the unit it is standing on - this will considerably improve the chances of hearing nice intelligible dialogue. You don't have to leave it there when you are not using the system - you can push it back and then bring it forward when you listen. It must be in the same position for measuring as it will be for listening.

 

Sitting hard up against the rear wall won't give you brilliant bass quality BTW, but if you cannot bring the couch forwards at all that is something you'll have to live with.

 

EDIT: I forgot - can you angle the centre speaker so that it points at your head when you are seated in your usual position?  I have successfully used door stop wedges in the past to do that - but anything will do if it raises the front of the speaker so it is aimed at your head when seated. This is in addition to bringing it forward so it overhangs the unit by an inch or so.

 

Also, the tripod is fine but you would find it a lot easier to use a proper boom mic stand - available on Amazon for 20 bucks. Just a thought.

 

Have you read the Audyssey FAQ and/or 101, linked in my sig?  If not, it's worth spending some time there before running Audyssey.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 11/21/13 at 5:46am
post #67214 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The mic must be two feet away from that back wall at ear height. If ear height is below the couch back, then raise the mic to clear it. If moving the mic 2 feet from the back wall makes the mic at least 12 inches from the couch back, then there is no real need to raise it, especially with a non-leather couch. 

Before you run Audyssey I would drag that centre speaker so that the front of it slightly overhangs (1 inch) the front of the unit it is standing on - this will considerably improve the chances of hearing nice intelligible dialogue. You don't have to leave it there when you are not using the system - you can push it back and then bring it forward when you listen. It must be in the same position for measuring as it will be for listening.

Sitting hard up against the rear wall won't give you brilliant bass quality BTW, but if you cannot bring the couch forwards at all that is something you'll have to live with.

EDIT: I forgot - can you angle the centre speaker so that it points at your head when you are seated in your usual position?  I have successfully used door stop wedges in the past to do that - but anything will do if it raises the front of the speaker so it is aimed at your head when seated. This is in addition to bringing it forward so it overhangs the unit by an inch or so.

The center speaker is actually angled up slightly, with a few wedged pieces of paper. I've also got 18in off the back wall on the couch back, so I guess I'm ok there. I'll try moving the center forward too. There's about an inch left where it still is above the glass.

Thanks for the tips! smile.gif

Edit: I've read through the faq a few years back and I just recently got a new sub, so it made me come in here to brush up on some stuff. tongue.gif
post #67215 of 70895
Originally Posted by Derko View Post
... I'm wondering if when running Audyssey, should I set the mic above my couch rear? I usually put it on a tripod and lean it against the center seat and raise it just above to clear the edge of the back of the couch. Then for the forward measurements I extend one lef of the tripod and set it about a foot forward from where I took the first measurements...

Hi, welcome.  Nice place.  Does the tie hanging on the door mean "Do not disturb"?;)

 

I suggest you review the Audyssey Setup Guide (see Keith's sig) if you have not done so recently.  Briefly, the main considerations:

 

1. Are reflections from couch decreasing calibration accuracy if mic is too close to the couch back?

 

2. Are the surrounds blocked by the couch back such that the levels will be calibrated too high?

 

3. Might the tripod leg picking up vibrations through couch cushion? 

 

As to the latter, a mic stand with boom deals with the issue and makes the whole process easier.  But for yeears I used a tripod in the manner you describe and got good calibrations.  I placed some vibration isolation between the leg and the couch (a piece of soft foam rubber is sufficient)

 

Now, for mic pos #1 I'd start by placing the mic exactly where right-between -the-ears is when seated. You want about

10" or so clearance from any couch surface.  With higher backed couches, it's usually less than that so you may have to move the mic a few inches up, forward or both. 

 

In your case up would be good as it would also take care of concern #2 and assure that the the mic is be able to "see" (hear) the surrounds.   As to sampling the area right over the seat back or behind it, Keith has advised you.


Edited by SoundofMind - 11/21/13 at 6:27am
post #67216 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derko View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The mic must be two feet away from that back wall at ear height. If ear height is below the couch back, then raise the mic to clear it. If moving the mic 2 feet from the back wall makes the mic at least 12 inches from the couch back, then there is no real need to raise it, especially with a non-leather couch. 

Before you run Audyssey I would drag that centre speaker so that the front of it slightly overhangs (1 inch) the front of the unit it is standing on - this will considerably improve the chances of hearing nice intelligible dialogue. You don't have to leave it there when you are not using the system - you can push it back and then bring it forward when you listen. It must be in the same position for measuring as it will be for listening.

Sitting hard up against the rear wall won't give you brilliant bass quality BTW, but if you cannot bring the couch forwards at all that is something you'll have to live with.

EDIT: I forgot - can you angle the centre speaker so that it points at your head when you are seated in your usual position?  I have successfully used door stop wedges in the past to do that - but anything will do if it raises the front of the speaker so it is aimed at your head when seated. This is in addition to bringing it forward so it overhangs the unit by an inch or so.

The center speaker is actually angled up slightly, with a few wedged pieces of paper. I've also got 18in off the back wall on the couch back, so I guess I'm ok there. I'll try moving the center forward too. There's about an inch left where it still is above the glass.

Thanks for the tips! smile.gif

Edit: I've read through the faq a few years back and I just recently got a new sub, so it made me come in here to brush up on some stuff. tongue.gif

 

Let us know how you get on. My FAQ and 101 hasn't been online for 'a few years' so have a quick refresher before you run Audyssey again - might save you some issues later.

post #67217 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Let us know how you get on. My FAQ and 101 hasn't been online for 'a few years' so have a quick refresher before you run Audyssey again - might save you some issues later.

You're right! It just feels like it's been a very long time since I was messing with it. I love the faq, it basically covers everything you need to know about how to do it your self. Plus the feed back you get individually in this thread is exactly what others need to get help with their individual set ups.

I just ran through audyssey and things are sound just as great as before. I think that unless I make a radical change, I won't really have to worry a lot about the process that I've been using so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Now, for mic pos #1 I'd start by placing the mic exactly where right-between the ears is when seated. You want about
10" or so clearance from any couch surface.  With higher backed couches, it's usually less.  So you may have to move the mic a few inches up, forward or both. 

In your case up would be good as it would also take care of concern #2 assure that the the mic to be able to "see" the surrounds iyouhave to fine.   As to sampling the area right over the seat back or behind it, Keith has advised you.

Thank you! smile.gif

So instead of doing the second measurements on the front... should I do them in the rear of the couch?
post #67218 of 70895

^We can't see what's behind your couch so it's hard to say. If there's more than a few feet to the wall , you could take a sample or two there, above couch back height so the mic can "see"/hear the speakers in the front.  But the majority of measurements should be lateral to MLP and in front of MLP.  Read the Guide, it has a lot of helpful info on this matter as your question is a common one.

post #67219 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^We can't see what's behind your couch so it's hard to say. If there's more than a few feet to the wall , you could take a sample or two there, above couch back height so the mic can "see"/hear the speakers in the front.  But the majority of measurements should be lateral to MLP and in front of MLP.  Read the Guide, it has a lot of helpful info on this matter as your question is a common one.

Gotcha... I was only commenting on his post mentioning at the end to measure behind. I have only 18 inches in the back, so then it's not ideal. I've always done all of my measurements on the front.

Thanks again guys ! smile.gif
post #67220 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derko View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Let us know how you get on. My FAQ and 101 hasn't been online for 'a few years' so have a quick refresher before you run Audyssey again - might save you some issues later.

You're right! It just feels like it's been a very long time since I was messing with it. I love the faq, it basically covers everything you need to know about how to do it your self. Plus the feed back you get individually in this thread is exactly what others need to get help with their individual set ups.

I just ran through audyssey and things are sound just as great as before. I think that unless I make a radical change, I won't really have to worry a lot about the process that I've been using so far.
 

 

Thanks. Seems like you have achieved a good result. So sit back and enjoy!

post #67221 of 70895
Subwoofer Volume.

I have a Denon X4000 and Goldear Speakers with built in subwoofers. When I calibrate Audssey wants me to be at 75 db. The subwoofers won't go that low so I balance them at 80 db. I had the same proble when trialing a standalone sub. Am I correctly calibrating or should I be doing something else?
Edited by Displaced Husker - 11/21/13 at 10:41am
post #67222 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Displaced Husker View Post

Subwoofer Volume.

I have a Denon X4000 and Goldear Speakers with built in subwoofers. When I calibrate Audssey wants me to be at 75 db. The subwoofers won't go that low so I balance them at 80 db. I had the same proble when trialing a standalone sub. Am I correctly calibrating or should I be doing something else?

 

When you say the sub 'won’t go that low' do you mean that when you turn down its gain control as much as possible, you still show 80dB on the Audyssey sub level test stage?  If so, that's fine - no problem at all. That 75dB is just to get the sub in the right ballpark for calibration - it won’t adversely affect anything if you start at 80dB - in fact I do exactly the same. Just go ahead with the sub level test showing 80dB and continue the calibration as normal. 

post #67223 of 70895
Thank you.
post #67224 of 70895
Denon 2313 Audyssey ?

I did the setup and Audy came back with these crossover settings: Front 40Hz, Center 60Hz, Surround 100Hz. Should I change or just keep these settings???

My setup is:
(2) Rear WH 2 series Wharfedales
(1) Energy CC10 center
(2) Monitor Audio RX6 (towers)
(1) Rythmik LV12R Subwoofer
Denon 2313CI AV receiver
Edited by purplerain - 11/21/13 at 6:53pm
post #67225 of 70895
I would bump the fronts up to 80hz. The rx6's are a great speakers, wonderful sound, and while they CAN reproduce content down to 40hz just like audyssey suggested, you Rythmic sub will do a much better job with the bass up to 80hz. Other than that, you could also bump the center up to 80 or 100hz as well, but just play around with the settings and see which sounds best to you. just remember you can always raise the crossover from what audyssey suggests, not lower it.
post #67226 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I would bump the fronts up to 80hz. The rx6's are a great speakers, wonderful sound, and while they CAN reproduce content down to 40hz just like audyssey suggested, you Rythmic sub will do a much better job with the bass up to 80hz. Other than that, you could also bump the center up to 80 or 100hz as well, but just play around with the settings and see which sounds best to you. just remember you can always raise the crossover from what audyssey suggests, not lower it.

Thank you...

I will do 80-80-100
post #67227 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If moving the mic 2 feet from the back wall makes the mic at least 12 inches from the couch back, then there is no real need to raise it, especially with a non-leather couch.
Whoa! What about leather couches? I'm having a leather loveseat and couch delivered in a few weeks. Do I have to re-do audyssey?
post #67228 of 70895
a well placed blanket on the back rest would be good to add if you are able, but you will still need to re-run audyssey since you are changing the layout of the room regardless.
post #67229 of 70895
If I'm just swapping a large sectional with separate loveseat and couch in the same basic area of the living room do I still have to run audyssey again?
post #67230 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccur View Post

If I'm just swapping a large sectional with separate loveseat and couch in the same basic area of the living room do I still have to run audyssey again?

Every time you move, replace or add a large piece of furniture to your room, you must re-run Audyssey.

Isn't that cool?

tongue.gif
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