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post #67501 of 70896
Advising a user to make changes to the sub trim on either / or the sub itself or the receiver goes against everything that I have ever learned about Audyssey. Chris himself told me that "DEQ will be effected if you make changes on the sub and not in the receiver".
post #67502 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Advising a user to make changes to the sub trim on either / or the sub itself or the receiver goes against everything that I have ever learned about Audyssey. Chris himself told me that "DEQ will be effected if you make changes on the sub and not in the receiver".

 

Read the response again, no one is advising the user to adjust the sub gain control.  However, I am not sure adjusting the sub channel trim affects DEQ.  I know adjusting the satellite trims will affect DEQ, though.  Perhaps someone will correct me if I am wrong.

post #67503 of 70896

Chris: "2) MultEQ sets the bass level to be the same as the satellites, but some prefer higher. You can change the level of the subwoofer, but do it in the AVR not on the back of the sub so that you can always put it back."

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/9030#post_15195061

post #67504 of 70896

Agreed, SoM.  But this doesn't answer the question of whether sub trim changes affect DEQ.

post #67505 of 70896
Like I said, that is what Chris told me on the original Audyssey Forums some time ago. I have no link, but I have always followed his advice.
post #67506 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Advising a user to make changes to the sub trim on either / or the sub itself or the receiver goes against everything that I have ever learned about Audyssey. Chris himself told me that "DEQ will be effected if you make changes on the sub and not in the receiver".

It's not the advice that was questioned (note that Jerry agreed with changing it at the receiver), it's the REASON for the advice.

The only reason to change it on the AVR is for precision and to make it easy to return to the previous level if desired.

There was a time when it was erroneously believed that channel trim changes were "tracked" by Dynamic EQ so it knew what the changed effective reference level was, but that turned out not to be the case. Chris K himself was the source of both the original info and the updated correction, as Audyssey has this ability designed (which is why he thought it was out there) but he found out later that AVR mfgr's had never implemented.

So the bottom line is that changes to the sub level do NOT affect Audyssey one iota.
post #67507 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Agreed, SoM.  But this doesn't answer the question of whether sub trim changes affect DEQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It's not the advice that was questioned (note that Jerry agreed with changing it at the receiver), it's the REASON for the advice.

The only reason to change it on the AVR is for precision and to make it easy to return to the previous level if desired.


There was a time when it was erroneously believed that channel trim changes were "tracked" by Dynamic EQ so it knew what the changed effective reference level was, but that turned out not to be the case. Chris K himself was the source of both the original info and the updated correction, as Audyssey has this ability designed (which is why he thought it was out there) but he found out later that AVR mfgr's had never implemented.

So the bottom line is that changes to the sub level do NOT affect Audyssey one iota.

This is all correct. The sub trim level makes it much harder to return to the "audyssey calibrated results" where using the AVR trims and noting where it started to begin with will allow you to get back there much easier. Turn knobs are tougher to get back exactly to where you were.

There was also a time when we all knew that Dynamic EQ doesn't "adjust on the fly" when listening. DynEq does not adjust anything post calibration, the overall boost is just exacerbated by the boost the user has already applied, therefore changing the listening environment even more, boosting the surrounds and subs additional to the user settings, which usually is a little "too much" at that point. In my experience, I like a little additional surround work, so I boost the trims +2dB's and leave it there, with no DynEQ engaged. If I were to then turn on DynEQ, the surrounds would be overbearing (and subs as well if you boosted them). Therefore I choose to either use dynEQ with the stock trim settings (which I don't) or leave dyn EQ off (which I do) and boost the trim levels to my own liking....
post #67508 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


This is all correct. The sub trim level makes it much harder to return to the "audyssey calibrated results" where using the AVR trims and noting where it started to begin with will allow you to get back there much easier. Turn knobs are tougher to get back exactly to where you were.

There was also a time when we all knew that Dynamic EQ doesn't "adjust on the fly" when listening. DynEq does not adjust anything post calibration, the overall boost is just exacerbated by the boost the user has already applied, therefore changing the listening environment even more, boosting the surrounds and subs additional to the user settings, which usually is a little "too much" at that point. In my experience, I like a little additional surround work, so I boost the trims +2dB's and leave it there, with no DynEQ engaged. If I were to then turn on DynEQ, the surrounds would be overbearing (and subs as well if you boosted them). Therefore I choose to either use dynEQ with the stock trim settings (which I don't) or leave dyn EQ off (which I do) and boost the trim levels to my own liking....

That's what I decided in, too. I would rather adjust trims to my liking and not use DEQ. It seems to me that Audyssey sets the bass level too low, and then uses DEQ to boost it and make it sound correct. I'd prefer to just set the bass level correctly (to my ears, at least) from the beginning and not have to count on DEQ to fool with it.

As far as adjusting gain on the sub, I agree that it should be fine tuned with AVR settings. What happened was, I found that I had positive trims in the AVR, so I used the sub's volume knob to set it a little hot, then I went into the AVR and trimmed it down. I'm now at -0.5 dB in the AVR and it seems pretty decent. Of course, this is way off from the original Audyssey calibration since it had it trimmed to a much lower value. So even though I fiddled with the gains, Audyssey's sub EQ should still be accurate?
post #67509 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


This is all correct. The sub trim level makes it much harder to return to the "audyssey calibrated results" where using the AVR trims and noting where it started to begin with will allow you to get back there much easier. Turn knobs are tougher to get back exactly to where you were.

There was also a time when we all knew that Dynamic EQ doesn't "adjust on the fly" when listening. DynEq does not adjust anything post calibration, the overall boost is just exacerbated by the boost the user has already applied, therefore changing the listening environment even more, boosting the surrounds and subs additional to the user settings, which usually is a little "too much" at that point. In my experience, I like a little additional surround work, so I boost the trims +2dB's and leave it there, with no DynEQ engaged. If I were to then turn on DynEQ, the surrounds would be overbearing (and subs as well if you boosted them). Therefore I choose to either use dynEQ with the stock trim settings (which I don't) or leave dyn EQ off (which I do) and boost the trim levels to my own liking....

That's what I decided in, too. I would rather adjust trims to my liking and not use DEQ. It seems to me that Audyssey sets the bass level too low, and then uses DEQ to boost it and make it sound correct. I'd prefer to just set the bass level correctly (to my ears, at least) from the beginning and not have to count on DEQ to fool with it.

As far as adjusting gain on the sub, I agree that it should be fine tuned with AVR settings. What happened was, I found that I had positive trims in the AVR, so I used the sub's volume knob to set it a little hot, then I went into the AVR and trimmed it down. I'm now at -0.5 dB in the AVR and it seems pretty decent. Of course, this is way off from the original Audyssey calibration since it had it trimmed to a much lower value. So even though I fiddled with the gains, Audyssey's sub EQ should still be accurate?
First off, I think you misunderstand the calibration and DEQ.

You say that Audyssey's calibration produces too little bass, then DEQ adds too much. The Audyssey calibration first and foremost, is designed to reproduce THX Reference as closely as possible by attempting to start off by producing a frequency response that simulates film standards when played back in small acoustic spaces. This is most accurate AT THX Reference.

I've personally not found bass to be lacking at Reference with the basic Audyssey frequency response in movies that are recorded with bass (eg. Oblivion, War Of The Worlds, Underworld Awakening, Die Hard 4 etc.).

As volume/SPLs decrease though, human sensitivity falls off faster in the lowest and highest octaves (as shown in the oft quoted Fletcher Munson curves). DEQ is designed to compensate for this and to restore the perceived spectral balance at lower listening levels, hence the lower the listening levels compared to Reference, the greater the boost to the lowest (and highest) octaves.

If you have a setup capable of playing at Reference level without distortion, try watching some of these movies at Reference and see if you still think they're lacking in bass (be warned that the majority of setups are NOT capable of playing at Reference levels without compression/distortion). Then turn the Main Volume down to -15 or -20 and play some movie scenes with bass (eg. Super Lycan's entrance in Underworld Awakening, apartment shootout in Die Hard 4) with DEQ Off and see if your perception of the bass is still the same as it was at Reference. Try it again with DEQ On. Personally, I find DEQ to do a pretty amazing job at compensating for the perceived spectral balance at reduced volumes (*for movies), but of course, if it's not to your preference that's your prerogative with your own setup.

As far as changing the trims on your subwoofer AND avr, the best practice is to turn the gain on the subwoofer where it needs to be so that rerunning the Audyssey calibration produces avr trims where you would prefer them, as opposed to turning the sub down and the avr up or vice versa without rerunning the Audyssey calibration.


Max
Edited by djbluemax1 - 11/30/13 at 12:00am
post #67510 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Advising a user to make changes to the sub trim on either / or the sub itself or the receiver goes against everything that I have ever learned about Audyssey. Chris himself told me that "DEQ will be effected if you make changes on the sub and not in the receiver".

 

It doesn’t matter where the change in level is made - sub or AVR. Audyssey doesn't 'do anything' if trim levels are changed and changing the sub level at the sub is the same thing. The advice to change at the AVR is simply to make it easier to return to a known value. Those with digital displays on their subs can use either method.

post #67511 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Advising a user to make changes to the sub trim on either / or the sub itself or the receiver goes against everything that I have ever learned about Audyssey. Chris himself told me that "DEQ will be effected if you make changes on the sub and not in the receiver".

 

Read the response again, no one is advising the user to adjust the sub gain control.  However, I am not sure adjusting the sub channel trim affects DEQ.  I know adjusting the satellite trims will affect DEQ, though.  Perhaps someone will correct me if I am wrong.

 

We used to think that DEQ 'knew' if trim levels had been changed and reacted accordingly. But this was debunked some time ago. DEQ reacts only to the MV.

post #67512 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Advising a user to make changes to the sub trim on either / or the sub itself or the receiver goes against everything that I have ever learned about Audyssey. Chris himself told me that "DEQ will be effected if you make changes on the sub and not in the receiver".

It's not the advice that was questioned (note that Jerry agreed with changing it at the receiver), it's the REASON for the advice.

The only reason to change it on the AVR is for precision and to make it easy to return to the previous level if desired.

There was a time when it was erroneously believed that channel trim changes were "tracked" by Dynamic EQ so it knew what the changed effective reference level was, but that turned out not to be the case. Chris K himself was the source of both the original info and the updated correction, as Audyssey has this ability designed (which is why he thought it was out there) but he found out later that AVR mfgr's had never implemented.

So the bottom line is that changes to the sub level do NOT affect Audyssey one iota.

 

That is also my understanding and recollection too. It was a myth that DEQ tracked trim changes and it was effectively busted.

post #67513 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It's not the advice that was questioned (note that Jerry agreed with changing it at the receiver), it's the REASON for the advice.
Right, that's why I asked.

D Bone, if you're going to follow anyone's advice about Audyssey, then it's not unreasonable to start with the CTO of the company. But let's not follow it blindly. Worth questioning the advice every so often.
post #67514 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

First off, I think you misunderstand the calibration and DEQ.

You say that Audyssey's calibration produces too little bass, then DEQ adds too much. The Audyssey calibration first and foremost, is designed to reproduce THX Reference as closely as possible by attempting to start off by producing a frequency response that simulates film standards when played back in small acoustic spaces. This is most accurate AT THX Reference.

I've personally not found bass to be lacking at Reference with the basic Audyssey frequency response in movies that are recorded with bass (eg. Oblivion, War Of The Worlds, Underworld Awakening, Die Hard 4 etc.).

As volume/SPLs decrease though, human sensitivity falls off faster in the lowest and highest octaves (as shown in the oft quoted Fletcher Munson curves). DEQ is designed to compensate for this and to restore the perceived spectral balance at lower listening levels, hence the lower the listening levels compared to Reference, the greater the boost to the lowest (and highest) octaves.

If you have a setup capable of playing at Reference level without distortion, try watching some of these movies at Reference and see if you still think they're lacking in bass (be warned that the majority of setups are NOT capable of playing at Reference levels without compression/distortion). Then turn the Main Volume down to -15 or -20 and play some movie scenes with bass (eg. Super Lycan's entrance in Underworld Awakening, apartment shootout in Die Hard 4) with DEQ Off and see if your perception of the bass is still the same as it was at Reference. Try it again with DEQ On. Personally, I find DEQ to do a pretty amazing job at compensating for the perceived spectral balance at reduced volumes (*for movies), but of course, if it's not to your preference that's your prerogative with your own setup.

As far as changing the trims on your subwoofer AND avr, the best practice is to turn the gain on the subwoofer where it needs to be so that rerunning the Audyssey calibration produces avr trims where you would prefer them, as opposed to turning the sub down and the avr up or vice versa without rerunning the Audyssey calibration.


Max

Thanks. I get what you're saying. The original Audyssey calibration may very well sound OK at reference levels, but the thing is, I don't think I'll ever be watching at that volume—it's very loud. They probably know that, so adding DEQ sounds like a good idea. I may go back to trying it, but I'm pretty happy with my levels now that were set with my SPL meter.

I also listen to 2-channel music and I just don't like Audyssey's original calibration for that. In a way, it sounds like it's neutering my speakers somewhat. I think it made them sound brighter, which is not what I want for music. DEQ may have been partially to blame, because if it's boosting high freqs too, maybe that's why things sounded more harsh. I think I like how it corrects the bass, though. Playing some CD's in L/R bypass mode last night sounded really good. Also, this is a little off topic, but since my PS4 won't play CD's (yet), I was playing them on my PS2 via optical. Just for kicks, I hooked up my old PS1 via analog and all I can say is wow. That harshness that my speakers sometimes produce was gone. Am I crazy for preferring analog over digital for 2-channel music or is the PS1 really that awesome?
post #67515 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post

I also listen to 2-channel music and I just don't like Audyssey's original calibration for that. In a way, it sounds like it's neutering my speakers somewhat. I think it made them sound brighter, which is not what I want for music. DEQ may have been partially to blame, because if it's boosting high freqs too, maybe that's why things sounded more harsh. I think I like how it corrects the bass, though. Playing some CD's in L/R bypass mode last night sounded really good. Also, this is a little off topic, but since my PS4 won't play CD's (yet), I was playing them on my PS2 via optical. Just for kicks, I hooked up my old PS1 via analog and all I can say is wow. That harshness that my speakers sometimes produce was gone. Am I crazy for preferring analog over digital for 2-channel music or is the PS1 really that awesome?
Personally, I'm not that much of a fan of DEQ for music either. I prefer to have it off and listen at volumes that replicate live performances depending on the type of music. It has to do with the lack of standards in music recording. As for preferring analog (PS1) vs digital, it depends on your playback chain and how it's handling the signal.


Max
post #67516 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Right, that's why I asked.

D Bone, if you're going to follow anyone's advice about Audyssey, then it's not unreasonable to start with the CTO of the company. But let's not follow it blindly. Worth questioning the advice every so often.

Fair enough.
post #67517 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post

I also listen to 2-channel music and I just don't like Audyssey's original calibration for that. In a way, it sounds like it's neutering my speakers somewhat. I think it made them sound brighter, which is not what I want for music. DEQ may have been partially to blame, because if it's boosting high freqs too, maybe that's why things sounded more harsh.

The reason I like DEQ for music is because of it's two-level compensation scheme. First DEQ looks at the MV setting and adjusts the equal loudness curves accordingly, then comes the second level when it looks into the contents and makes another correction (in real time) depending on soft parts and loud parts. Of course, for loudly recorded music this might not be noticable, but will become apparent for classical music with high dynamic range.

As reagrds harsh highs have you tried to play around with RLO (Reference Level Offset)?
post #67518 of 70896
hi, I probably don't have the expertise to be on this thread so forgive my audio ignorance in advance.

I have Axiom's new LFR1100 omnidirectional speakers within my 7.2 setup. I have an Onkyo 5009 with Audyssey - which I find indispensable. The LFRs require two channels per speaker, therefore I run my L&R pre-outs from Onkyo to the LFR DSP box that splits each channel and does what it does with the signals. 4 signals then go to my amp then to speakers. Trouble is Axiom says don't use Audyssey because it will mess with the signal out of the preamp and confound the DSP. That actually makes sense to me if I assume the DSP does more than just split the signals. So the question is whether there is a work around. Would it be possible to run Audyssey for all speakers except for the LFRs? Is there some advice anyone can give me?
post #67519 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Personally, I'm not that much of a fan of DEQ for music either. I prefer to have it off and listen at volumes that replicate live performances depending on the type of music. It has to do with the lack of standards in music recording. As for preferring analog (PS1) vs digital, it depends on your playback chain and how it's handling the signal.


Max

Sorry to go off topic, but just a quick question about why I'm hearing a sound difference between the PS1 and the PS2. Is the main thing the DAC? In the case of the PS1, does its DAC convert the digital CD signal to analog, send that to my AVR and then the AVR sends that to the speakers? So since I have the PS2 connected via optical, is it just sending the digital signal to the AVR, and then the AVR is doing the conversion using its own DAC? Is the difference in sound due to the PS1's DAC vs my AVR's DAC or are there other things in play here? My AVR is a Marantz 1403, which I'm assuming has a pretty decent DAC, but then again, I'm not a pro at all this.
post #67520 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

The reason I like DEQ for music is because of it's two-level compensation scheme. First DEQ looks at the MV setting and adjusts the equal loudness curves accordingly, then comes the second level when it looks into the contents and makes another correction (in real time) depending on soft parts and loud parts. Of course, for loudly recorded music this might not be noticable, but will become apparent for classical music with high dynamic range.

As reagrds harsh highs have you tried to play around with RLO (Reference Level Offset)?



I have to agree, I like DEQ for music also. I don't know anyone that listens to music at reference all the time, yeah for a few songs but most of my listening is in the -40 to -20 range. It is basically like hitting the loudness button on our old receivers, I know that's not totally accurate but it is boosting till reference. Also no harshness on my setup with the RLO set to -5 for the rock genre. I saw where Chris said -10 for that genre but it's not to my liking.
post #67521 of 70896
It actually IS like the old "loudness" button in principle, just a much more sophisticated version of it that is constantly adjusting the EQ based on volume and content. I also find it indispensable for music since I can't listen super loud. I just wish I could turn off the surround boost since I like to matrix 2ch music to 5.1.
post #67522 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Personally, I'm not that much of a fan of DEQ for music either. I prefer to have it off and listen at volumes that replicate live performances depending on the type of music. It has to do with the lack of standards in music recording. As for preferring analog (PS1) vs digital, it depends on your playback chain and how it's handling the signal.


Max

Sorry to go off topic, but just a quick question about why I'm hearing a sound difference between the PS1 and the PS2. Is the main thing the DAC? In the case of the PS1, does its DAC convert the digital CD signal to analog, send that to my AVR and then the AVR sends that to the speakers? So since I have the PS2 connected via optical, is it just sending the digital signal to the AVR, and then the AVR is doing the conversion using its own DAC? Is the difference in sound due to the PS1's DAC vs my AVR's DAC or are there other things in play here? My AVR is a Marantz 1403, which I'm assuming has a pretty decent DAC, but then again, I'm not a pro at all this.

It's difficult to say as there are many variables involved. For example are you sure there aren't any differences in audio settings in the processor for each input? For example the Marantz compressed music "restorer" feature MDAX might be enabled by default on the analog input you are using.

It's highly unlikely to be solely a difference in the DACs.
post #67523 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibmack View Post

hi, I probably don't have the expertise to be on this thread so forgive my audio ignorance in advance.

I have Axiom's new LFR1100 omnidirectional speakers within my 7.2 setup. I have an Onkyo 5009 with Audyssey - which I find indispensable. The LFRs require two channels per speaker, therefore I run my L&R pre-outs from Onkyo to the LFR DSP box that splits each channel and does what it does with the signals. 4 signals then go to my amp then to speakers. Trouble is Axiom says don't use Audyssey because it will mess with the signal out of the preamp and confound the DSP. That actually makes sense to me if I assume the DSP does more than just split the signals. So the question is whether there is a work around. Would it be possible to run Audyssey for all speakers except for the LFRs? Is there some advice anyone can give me?


Nope, you cannot run Audyssey without including the FR/L speakers.  A solution with a Denon would be to then switch to a particular Audyssey EQ mode called Bypass Front R/L, which simply does not apply the corrections to those channels during playback and would solve the problem.  But AFAIK Onk has no such option, it's all channels or none.

 

As you have a new flagship Onk AVR, you're unlikely to want to switch it out.  So what we need to know is, what do you like about Audyssey?  If it's fixing the bass, then we can discuss options for EQing your subs. 

post #67524 of 70896
If your AVR has two sub outs, 1 &2, if you want to run the subs 2db hot, do you add 1db to sub1&2 or 2db to sub 1&2?
post #67525 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It actually IS like the old "loudness" button in principle, just a much more sophisticated version of it that is constantly adjusting the EQ based on volume and content. I also find it indispensable for music since I can't listen super loud. I just wish I could turn off the surround boost since I like to matrix 2ch music to 5.1.

What matrix mode do you use for music bp? FYR, for 2 ch stereos I always use Dolby ProLogicII Music mode with parameters set as follows:

Panorama: On
Dimesion: 0
C.Width: 5

For me this setting stretches the 2 ch image from front L & Rs to the L & R surrounds creating a semi-circle around my head and IMHO it does it pretty well. Kudos to Dolby Labs! smile.gif
post #67526 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

If your AVR has two sub outs, 1 &2, if you want to run the subs 2db hot, do you add 1db to sub1&2 or 2db to sub 1&2?

 

You launch REW, measure the sub output, and then run your experiment.  The increase that results in a 2dB measured sub level increase is the right answer.  But you knew that already, didn't you, Murray, being a REW user?

post #67527 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

What matrix mode do you use for music bp? FYR, for 2 ch stereos I always use Dolby ProLogicII Music mode with parameters set as follows:

Panorama: On
Dimesion: 0
C.Width: 5

For me this setting stretches the 2 ch image from front L & Rs to the L & R surrounds creating a semi-circle around my head and IMHO it does it pretty well. Kudos to Dolby Labs! smile.gif

That's aggressive on the rear bias Feri! I use ON, 3, 5 for my PL II Music settings, but that is with DEQ OFF. Do you use "0" even with DEQ?
post #67528 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

That's aggressive on the rear bias Feri! I use ON, 3, 5 for my PL II Music settings, but that is with DEQ OFF. Do you use "0" even with DEQ?

I never turn DEQ off,...I never (can) listen to music at 0 dB Master Volume setting. And I don't have or experience such aggressive rear bias that you mention. YMMV
post #67529 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I never turn DEQ off,...I never (can) listen to music at 0 dB Master Volume setting. And I don't have or experience such aggressive rear bias that you mention. YMMV

When I was using DEQ @ 0db RLO, I used PL II Music with OFF/5/5 settings along with my surrounds trim turned down 2.5db from what Audyssey set and was happy. Now I'm seeing if DEQ is responsible for my harshness, so I have it disabled and have use ON/3/5 and I have returned my surrounds to the correct level, and I like it.
post #67530 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It's difficult to say as there are many variables involved. For example are you sure there aren't any differences in audio settings in the processor for each input? For example the Marantz compressed music "restorer" feature MDAX might be enabled by default on the analog input you are using.

It's highly unlikely to be solely a difference in the DACs.

Not sure about MDAX, but I'll check that out.
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