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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2255

post #67621 of 70896

DeRemote will get you there.

 

post #67622 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

DeRemote will get you there.



I like that. Denon should look at that style for their next models. Too bad I'm a Droid guy.
post #67623 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post

No it doesn't, at least with the stock remote. Some folks have seen good results using the "deremote" app for apple products which can adjust trims on the fly. The other slightly good news is you still can adjust the subwoofer trim on the fly, just not the satellites. I love the 8801 regardless, but I sure wish they had have kept that option available on the remote as they did in previous year models.

Thanks

If you mean there is one button for the sub only that would be great news since I could program it into my universal Logytech remote.
I very seldom adjust the the center and never touch the surronds, mostly the subs for higher or lower and most of the time leave it un-touch.

Please confirm it was what you meant the way I read-it.

Ray

Yep. Under the first audio sub-menu you can adjust the sub trim. Couple button presses to get there but it doesn't run to pink noise when you are adjusting so just GUI overlay will be the only distraction, but it is still quick to access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I like that. Denon should look at that style for their next models. Too bad I'm a Droid guy.

Same here d bone. Literally learned about the deremote app the day after I transitioned back to android based phone. Might just move back again tho.
post #67624 of 70896
I asked the developer if he was going to make it available for android, but I don't think it's easiest app to keep up and running, most network based ones aren't. It is a really good app and I'd be lost without it.
post #67625 of 70896
"If you mean there is one button for the sub only that would be great news since I could program it into my universal Logytech remote."

There are discrete codes for speaker volumes for all speakers that can be programmed onto a Harmony or other universal. See here - http://batpigworld.com/wp/?p=117
post #67626 of 70896
Audyssey Pro kit users will find that the MRC/BBC dip is present on both "curves" (Audyssey, and Flat if using Denon) if the MRC was selected via the PC software. However, non-Pro kit users of the Denon4520 will indeed find that the dip is absent when using the Flat curve. I also posted Pre-amp output measurements that clearly showed this some several weeks back, and it has been confirmed by a number of other posters (and then dismissed as incorrect by more experienced members).
Maybe a Pro kit user will get the time to compare Pro and non-Pro results, and put this matter to bed, finally.
Regards, casual poster Mike.
post #67627 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

"If you mean there is one button for the sub only that would be great news since I could program it into my universal Logytech remote."

There are discrete codes for speaker volumes for all speakers that can be programmed onto a Harmony or other universal. See here - http://batpigworld.com/wp/?p=117

are those speaker volumes "remembered" by the avr? meaning if i switch inputs will i have to redo the levels?

would it be exactly like going into settings and changing the volume?
post #67628 of 70896
The exact behavior will depend on the receiver. Most Denons memorize speaker levels by surround mode not by input.
post #67629 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

Audyssey Pro kit users will find that the MRC/BBC dip is present on both "curves" (Audyssey, and Flat if using Denon) if the MRC was selected via the PC software. However, non-Pro kit users of the Denon4520 will indeed find that the dip is absent when using the Flat curve. I also posted Pre-amp output measurements that clearly showed this some several weeks back, and it has been confirmed by a number of other posters (and then dismissed as incorrect by more experienced members).
Maybe a Pro kit user will get the time to compare Pro and non-Pro results, and put this matter to bed, finally.
Regards, casual poster Mike.

 

Yes, that would be me, guilty as charged (both for accepting your challenge, and for dismissing your previous measurements).  Here are some fresh measurements that should shed some light on the issue.  All measurements are from a Denon 4520.  Attempts were made to keep the measurement points consistent (although obviously there will be slight variations).  Pre-out measurements were taken on the right channel.

 

First, the Pro calibration pre-out measurements, which clearly show the MRC in both Audyssey and Audyssey Flat modes:

 

 

Now, the Standard calibration pre-out measurements.  Note that the MRC is NOT present in Audyssey Flat mode (nice call Mike!):

 

 

Some additional graphs to satisfy any interest in the difference between a Standard and Pro calibration are shown below.  First, a comparison of the pre-our measurements (not much difference):

 

 

Now for the in-room measurement comparisons:

 

 

 

 

 

IMO, the differences between the Standard and Pro measurements are very subtle.  So, the question is, what is the difference between a Pro calibration and a Standard calibration?  One frequent poster claims that if you can't measure a difference, then there isn't a difference (and that's not because he has gubbins in his ears...).  So, is a Pro calibration worth $700?  You be the judge, and please share your thoughts.

 

However, if everyone accepts this analysis, one thing is clear:  As long as the "MRC" option is selected in Pro, both Audyssey and Audyssey Flat modes have the MRC dip.  In a Standard calibration, only the Audyssey mode has the MRC, and selecting the Audyssey Flat mode is a convenient way to turn the MRC off.  (At least for Denon AVR's)  Something to add to the FAQ, Keith?

post #67630 of 70896
Fascinating Jerry. So it appears that the fact you were measuring a Pro calibration confounded the data. So at some point Denon decided to stop including the MRC dip in the flat curve. And obviously against the recommendation of Audyssey as Chris was pretty unambiguous that both target curves include this dip.

Jerry could you do the same measurements with your 4311? Just raw preout of flat vs reference. I'm curious to collect new data on older models and see if we can pinpoint the chronology of the change.
post #67631 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post


That is very surprising. I was clearly saying that the "dip" is NOT there. Never in my Flat curves. Sorry if my results are wrong and if I'm misleading anybody. The dip is very obvious with Audyssey (regular), not there with Audyssey off or Flat or with no BM at all (speakers=Large). So it can't be room response. And now I'm confused again... smile.gif

FWIW I have measured all speakers individually, and FL+FR combined, in all Audyssey combos at all BM XO freqs below 100Hz, and with and without one or two subs (different Audyssey cals loaded, but identical mike placings for them), and without any BM. Yes, I have a helluva lot of readings, which I'm still analyzing. But some things stick out...

Edit: unless what you guys call "the dip" in Flat is very very tiny. In regular Audyssey it shows up as only about 2.4dB here (from memory, =not too reliable...), so in Flat it would have to be extremely small.

I have not enough experience with REW readings to pose my questions in the REW thread yet. i.e. get my problems analyzed. But this may be another Q to add to the list.

 

Whether the MRC Dip exists in Audyssey Flat is a question that has come up a number of times in this thread, most recently only several weeks ago.  The way to test this is to use REW to measure the pre-out in both Audyssey and Audyssey Flat modes, which I did and posted back them.  Here is the measurement once again:

 

 

If you examine the graph, you can clearly see that the ONLY difference between Audyssey and Audyssey Flat is in the HF above 4.5KHz.  The MRC dip is clearly present in both modes.  Does this not answer the question?  If yes, we should either bookmark this post, or add the answer to the Audyssey FAQ.

 

I will add this to the FAQ, Jerry, using your graph and commentary. Good suggestion.

post #67632 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post
 
 I asked if the Green one was "drawn" because it's so smooth compared to the Audyssey ON ones, and surely can't represent the raw preamp FR characteristics of his unit.

 

Why not?  it's exactly what I'd expect to see in a modern unit.

post #67633 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

Audyssey Pro kit users will find that the MRC/BBC dip is present on both "curves" (Audyssey, and Flat if using Denon) if the MRC was selected via the PC software. However, non-Pro kit users of the Denon4520 will indeed find that the dip is absent when using the Flat curve. I also posted Pre-amp output measurements that clearly showed this some several weeks back, and it has been confirmed by a number of other posters (and then dismissed as incorrect by more experienced members).
Maybe a Pro kit user will get the time to compare Pro and non-Pro results, and put this matter to bed, finally.
Regards, casual poster Mike.

 

Yes, that would be me, guilty as charged (both for accepting your challenge, and for dismissing your previous measurements).  Here are some fresh measurements that should shed some light on the issue.  All measurements are from a Denon 4520.  Attempts were made to keep the measurement points consistent (although obviously there will be slight variations).  Pre-out measurements were taken on the right channel.

 

First, the Pro calibration pre-out measurements, which clearly show the MRC in both Audyssey and Audyssey Flat modes:

 

 

Now, the Standard calibration pre-out measurements.  Note that the MRC is NOT present in Audyssey Flat mode (nice call Mike!):

 

 

Some additional graphs to satisfy any interest in the difference between a Standard and Pro calibration are shown below.  First, a comparison of the pre-our measurements (not much difference):

 

 

Now for the in-room measurement comparisons:

 

 

 

 

 

IMO, the differences between the Standard and Pro measurements are very subtle.  So, the question is, what is the difference between a Pro calibration and a Standard calibration?  One frequent poster claims that if you can't measure a difference, then there isn't a difference (and that's not because he has gubbins in his ears...).  So, is a Pro calibration worth $700?  You be the judge, and please share your thoughts.

 

However, if everyone accepts this analysis, one thing is clear:  As long as the "MRC" option is selected in Pro, both Audyssey and Audyssey Flat modes have the MRC dip.  In a Standard calibration, only the Audyssey mode has the MRC, and selecting the Audyssey Flat mode is a convenient way to turn the MRC off.  (At least for Denon AVR's)  Something to add to the FAQ, Keith?

 

Yes, I will add it to the FAQ with all relevant graphs etc. Very interesting find. I wonder now if it applies to Onkyos?  It is too difficult for me to get behind my gear to do the measurements - maybe someone else with an Onk can oblige?

post #67634 of 70896
Ya, been on my list to do. Maybe over holiday break in a couple weeks. I was one that showed my in room measurments with no MRC with Flat/Music curve on Onkyo 818.
post #67635 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Fascinating Jerry. So it appears that the fact you were measuring a Pro calibration confounded the data. So at some point Denon decided to stop including the MRC dip in the flat curve. And obviously against the recommendation of Audyssey as Chris was pretty unambiguous that both target curves include this dip.

Jerry could you do the same measurements with your 4311? Just raw preout of flat vs reference. I'm curious to collect new data on older models and see if we can pinpoint the chronology of the change.

 

I was surprised with the findings as well.  I think it would be nice if someone would report these results to Chris on FB and see what he has to say.  I would do it, but I am not a FB participant.

 

I'll try and get to the 4311 measurements, but not today.  I can only take so much REW at a time.

post #67636 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Why not?  it's exactly what I'd expect to see in a modern unit.

Not in my experience. I get the LF rolloff as BM, but the HF rolloff? I don't know what it is in my X4000, but in my other (stereo) preamps it's far beyond the audio range, not like 17kHz or so. That was the part that I was referring to actually, the part that threw me off. Again, I still have to re-read how Jerry did these. I read it once last week, but it seemed beyond what I needed (in-room response) so I kinda skimmed it to concentrate on the other stuff. smile.gif

Edit: for others, you don't need to necessarily do the preamp outputs to show what type of "Flat" curve you have. It should be extremely obvious if the dip is there or not with regular REW measurements. It really is that obvious when it's not there, because after all it is "forced" to be there. If you can notice when it is there, you can just as easily notice when it's not. If you can't tell the diff between Audyssey (regular) and Audyssey Flat, then the dip is always there, because AFAWK it's always in regular Audyssey. You'll see what I mean if/when you get a chance to measure both...
Edited by cfraser - 12/6/13 at 12:03pm
post #67637 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I was surprised with the findings as well.  I think it would be nice if someone would report these results to Chris on FB and see what he has to say.  I would do it, but I am not a FB participant.

I'll try and get to the 4311 measurements, but not today.  I can only take so much REW at a time.

I'll do it right now before I get distracted....I streamlined it down to the first two charts (Standard vs. Pro).
post #67638 of 70896
Final word from Chris on Facebook: "Flat in consumer MultEQ has not had the MRC dip for several years. I believe that in the very early days it may have, but my memory has faded a bit. But in the Pro app you can select whether to use MRC or not. That selection will apply to both Flat and Reference."

So there it is. Seems definitive enough, Keith you should add that to the FAQ.
post #67639 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Final word from Chris on Facebook: "Flat in consumer MultEQ has not had the MRC dip for several years. I believe that in the very early days it may have, but my memory has faded a bit. But in the Pro app you can select whether to use MRC or not. That selection will apply to both Flat and Reference."

So there it is. Seems definitive enough, Keith you should add that to the FAQ.

IMHO, probably best would be to add to FAQ with some narratives on what the heck this MRC/BBC dip is. You know, for the newbs! smile.gif
post #67640 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Final word from Chris on Facebook: "Flat in consumer MultEQ has not had the MRC dip for several years. I believe that in the very early days it may have, but my memory has faded a bit. But in the Pro app you can select whether to use MRC or not. That selection will apply to both Flat and Reference."

So there it is. Seems definitive enough, Keith you should add that to the FAQ.

That probably explains why some people hate Audyssey Flat, at least from what I remember reading on the 4311 thread over the past year or so. If it's literally intended to be Flat in the entire frequency range, and you're sensitive to the honking high midrange/HF vocal sound, it stands out vs. the MRC/BBC dip.
post #67641 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Final word from Chris on Facebook: "Flat in consumer MultEQ has not had the MRC dip for several years. I believe that in the very early days it may have, but my memory has faded a bit. But in the Pro app you can select whether to use MRC or not. That selection will apply to both Flat and Reference."

So there it is. Seems definitive enough, Keith you should add that to the FAQ.

Good, saves me some pre-out measurements.

post #67642 of 70896
Kudos to Mike, AustinJerry, and cfraser for figuring it all out - it was clear you all were speaking the truth biggrin.gif
post #67643 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Final word from Chris on Facebook: "Flat in consumer MultEQ has not had the MRC dip for several years. I believe that in the very early days it may have, but my memory has faded a bit. But in the Pro app you can select whether to use MRC or not. That selection will apply to both Flat and Reference."

So there it is. Seems definitive enough, Keith you should add that to the FAQ.

 

Thanks for following up.  Strange that we haven't discovered this before.  Or maybe someone did, and we discounted the finding, like we did with Mike.

post #67644 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Kudos to Mike, AustinJerry, and cfraser for figuring it all out - it was clear you all were speaking the truth biggrin.gif

Well Guys, on a second note, this whole MRC/BBC dip is another kinda issue I'm not sure needs such deep attention, just a little attention seems to me to be OK. Let's assume the listeners range from my GrandMa to studio engineers. Me thinks the average HT enthusiasts will be somewhere in between, maybe somewhat closer to GrandMa. tongue.gif In a controlled test where "A" movie/music is played back with the dip and another "B" (different) movie/music is played back without the dip even the 4311 owners mentioned by Stu (sdrurker) would have a hard time to pick out which is which.

Thoughts?
post #67645 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

 

Thanks for following up.  Strange that we haven't discovered this before.  Or maybe someone did, and we discounted the finding, like we did with Mike.

Some of us provided in room measurements showing this a while back but it was discounted until pre-out measurements were taken.  I was lazy and waited for others to prove we were correct.  :D

 

Nice work by everyone involved!!!

post #67646 of 70896
Thanks to Jerry for putting in the time and effort to clear this up, and for Chris confirming it.
Sorry if my previous post was a bit pointed - but many in here get quite passionate about the subject.
Best regards, Mike.
post #67647 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Jerry could you do the same measurements with your 4311? Just raw preout of flat vs reference. I'm curious to collect new data on older models and see if we can pinpoint the chronology of the change.

 

BP, do you still need these measurements?

post #67648 of 70896
Hi

I have a Denon and ran audyssey which set my front L/R to large and in the bass mgmt area i have it set to "LFE" and the LPF xover is at 80hz. Now when I look at the speaker xovers it says the front L/R are running "full band" so does this mean that they are actually NOT running full band because the LPF is at 80?

I'm guessing this means that everything that comes to the Front L/Rs that is below 80hz is going to the sub, no? So if I change my fronts to small and then change the xover in speaker set up to say 40hz then that means everything below that will be sent to the sub essentially making my front L/R run more full band than when on "full band" .

Also, when I do change the L/Rs to small and set the speaker xover to 40 doesn't that over ride the LPF of 80hz?

Many thanks for your thoughts.
post #67649 of 70896
From Ask Audyssey...

"Audyssey uses a nonlinear weighting method to combine the measurements in your room in order to determine the response. You are correct in saying that simply flattening the steady state response results in sound that is too bright. There are acoustical and perceptual reasons for that. Our research has shown that the EQ is needed over the entire range. The weighting of lower frequencies, however, is important and that is part of the algorithm. Yes, the Flat curve includes Midrange Compensation.

March 26, 2011 08:50 PM"
post #67650 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonT35 View Post

From Ask Audyssey...

"Audyssey uses a nonlinear weighting method to combine the measurements in your room in order to determine the response. You are correct in saying that simply flattening the steady state response results in sound that is too bright. There are acoustical and perceptual reasons for that. Our research has shown that the EQ is needed over the entire range. The weighting of lower frequencies, however, is important and that is part of the algorithm. Yes, the Flat curve includes Midrange Compensation.

March 26, 2011 08:50 PM"

I already linked to this a few posts back when this new round of dicussion started. Chris confirmed TODAY that this is no longer the case -- see my quote above from him on Facebook when Stuart asked him on the FB group Audyssey Tech Talk.
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