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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2259

post #67741 of 70885
I think if people would make the proper adjustments and give Audyssey a chance they might like it for music. I don't like to settle and I don't feel I'm settling with Audyssey flat and the adjustments I've made for music... Or else I'd turn it off and do it manually like I've done for 20 years prior to Audyssey. Just my two cents.
post #67742 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm not getting into this debate publicly wink.gif I'll just say I like how they sound and look. It's not a status symbol because I have no one to impress except myself.

My pm box is almost empty. Fil'er up. smile.gif I also like the Marantz look and sound. I was not saying the Marantz is a status symbol. smile.gif I was referring to the high end equipment
I mean expensive equipment.smile.gifsmile.gif
post #67743 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
 
 
1. As much as Keith praises Audyssey I hope he has Audyssey in his music room. If I was younger I might want two rooms. I have too many hobbies to justify separate rooms.
 

 

I don't have a dedicated room for my music system - it is in the living room. It doesn't have Audyssey - it is just a (25 year old) two channel Class A amp and speakers and a CD source unit. I am considering bringing it into this century sometime next year, but it will still be a 2 channel system. My HT is the dedicated room.

post #67744 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't have a dedicated room for my music system - it is in the living room. It doesn't have Audyssey - it is just a (25 year old) two channel Class A amp and speakers and a CD source unit. I am considering bringing it into this century sometime next year, but it will still be a 2 channel system. My HT is the dedicated room.

I suppose you are not a lucky devil after all. Does this mean more canaries will be sacrificed during the update?smile.gif
post #67745 of 70885
Can anyone point me to some FR graphs comparing DEQ on/off? Just curious since turning it on makes the bass very hollow and boomy in my room.
post #67746 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Can anyone point me to some FR graphs comparing DEQ on/off? Just curious since turning it on makes the bass very hollow and boomy in my room.

Sounds like you are not the knight in shining armor or you could solve the issue.smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif
post #67747 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I think if people would make the proper adjustments and give Audyssey a chance they might like it for music. I don't like to settle and I don't feel I'm settling with Audyssey flat and the adjustments I've made for music... Or else I'd turn it off and do it manually like I've done for 20 years prior to Audyssey. Just my two cents.

I am going to give it another chance. I couldn't stand listening to music with XT, seemed to kill the dynamics and lose the clarity, as well as sounding gritty in the high end. Compared to my 2-channel system that shares the same FR+FL amp and speakers, but nothing else (my HT and 2ch systems meet at the front stereo amp, which has multiple inputs) except the source in the case of hi-rez music (BD/SACD/DVD-A). I have not even tried the XT32+SubEQ HT with 2 subs config with music so far, I was so down on it with XT. I know it'll sound a lot better now, and it would be nice to have the room FR half-decent with the Audyssey on (I always use Flat)...
post #67748 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Can anyone point me to some FR graphs comparing DEQ on/off? Just curious since turning it on makes the bass very hollow and boomy in my room.

What would you expect to see on those graphs taken in other peoples' rooms? If you understand the principles of DEQ you don't really need a graph. smile.gif
post #67749 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

I am going to give it another chance. I couldn't stand listening to music with XT, seemed to kill the dynamics and lose the clarity, as well as sounding gritty in the high end. Compared to my 2-channel system that shares the same FR+FL amp and speakers, but nothing else (my HT and 2ch systems meet at the front stereo amp, which has multiple inputs) except the source in the case of hi-rez music (BD/SACD/DVD-A). I have not even tried the XT32+SubEQ HT with 2 subs config with music so far, I was so down on it with XT. I know it'll sound a lot better now, and it would be nice to have the room FR half-decent with the Audyssey on (I always use Flat)...



What are you using for a AVR and does it have XT32?
post #67750 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't have a dedicated room for my music system - it is in the living room. It doesn't have Audyssey - it is just a (25 year old) two channel Class A amp and speakers and a CD source unit. I am considering bringing it into this century sometime next year, but it will still be a 2 channel system. My HT is the dedicated room.

I suppose you are not a lucky devil after all. 

 

I have many blessings to count :)

 

Quote:

 Does this mean more canaries will be sacrificed during the update?smile.gif

 

Hehe. I have actually seriously been considering a headphone-only system for music as I don't want to apply acoustic treatments to the living room. I’d still have some speakers probably though, for background listening which I like to do as I read or potter about. But a serious pair of headphones might be on the cards.

post #67751 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Can anyone point me to some FR graphs comparing DEQ on/off? Just curious since turning it on makes the bass very hollow and boomy in my room.

 

The best way to see what DEQ does is from graphs of the preouts. Someone posted these some time back but I think it was in another thread - possibly the Onkyo 818 thread and possibly posted by IgorZep. A search might throw them up.

 

Basically they showed what we'd expect - a rise at the bass end as the MV was reduced, the rise being proportional to the change in MV.

post #67752 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

What would you expect to see on those graphs taken in other peoples' rooms? If you understand the principles of DEQ you don't really need a graph. smile.gif

A point of reference. I'm more of a visual learner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The best way to see what DEQ does is from graphs of the preouts. Someone posted these some time back but I think it was in another thread - possibly the Onkyo 818 thread and possibly posted by IgorZep. A search might throw them up.

Basically they showed what we'd expect - a rise at the bass end as the MV was reduced, the rise being proportional to the change in MV.

Thanks, I'll try another search.
post #67753 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Can anyone point me to some FR graphs comparing DEQ on/off? Just curious since turning it on makes the bass very hollow and boomy in my room.

 

Measurements?  Who does measurements?

 

This should give you some insight:

 

 

If you can read the legend, the dark blue line is Audyssey only, no DEQ.  The red line is with DEQ added, RLO=0,  the next three colors represent how the curve is affected by changing the values of RLO to 5, 10, and then 15.

 

DEQ has little impact on the center frequencies--it's effect is below 200Hz and above ~8KHz.  This measurement is for a front speaker only, and does not show the increase in volume that occurs with the surround speakers.  I have no measurements for the surrounds.

post #67754 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Measurements?  Who does measurements?

This should give you some insight:




If you can read the legend, the dark blue line is Audyssey only, no DEQ.  The red line is with DEQ added, RLO=0,  the next three colors represent how the curve is affected by changing the values of RLO to 5, 10, and then 15.

DEQ has little impact on the center frequencies--it's effect is below 200Hz and above ~8KHz.  This measurement is for a front speaker only, and does not show the increase in volume that occurs with the surround speakers.  I have no measurements for the surrounds.

Jerry, let's not forget that these are graphs to show the static feature of DEQ related to a certain MV setting below 0 dB only, but the dynamic feature (the one that is done in real-time during playing back soft or loud parts) is not shown here.
post #67755 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Measurements?  Who does measurements?

This should give you some insight:




If you can read the legend, the dark blue line is Audyssey only, no DEQ.  The red line is with DEQ added, RLO=0,  the next three colors represent how the curve is affected by changing the values of RLO to 5, 10, and then 15.

DEQ has little impact on the center frequencies--it's effect is below 200Hz and above ~8KHz.  This measurement is for a front speaker only, and does not show the increase in volume that occurs with the surround speakers.  I have no measurements for the surrounds.
THANK YOU AustinJerry! Makes a lot more sense to me now.
post #67756 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post


THANK YOU AustinJerry! Makes a lot more sense to me now.

 

DEQ is actually quite complex.  As you probably know, the amount of offset that DEQ applies is relative to the master volume setting, i.e. as MV increases, the effect of DEQ decreases.  The RLO (Reference Level Offset) is tied in with the relative effect as well.  For example, for MV=-20 and RLO=5, you get the same DEQ effect as you would with MV=-15 and RLO=0.

 

Add to this the complexity that DEQ is constantly analyzing content, and you have a very complex technology that is very difficult to characterize with simple measurements.  The best advice is to understand how it works, then experiment with various settings, and let your preference determine how you use it.

post #67757 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

DEQ is actually quite complex.  As you probably know, the amount of offset that DEQ applies is relative to the master volume setting, i.e. as MV increases, the effect of DEQ decreases.  The RLO (Reference Level Offset) is tied in with the relative effect as well.  For example, for MV=-20 and RLO=5, you get the same DEQ effect as you would with MV=-15 and RLO=0.

Add to this the complexity that DEQ is constantly analyzing content, and you have a very complex technology that is very difficult to characterize with simple measurements.  The best advice is to understand how it works, then experiment with various settings, and let your preference determine how you use it.

Jerry, there was someone here a while ago who has shown graphs of the second level of DEQ. I'm trying to find that post now. Stay tuned, please.
post #67758 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

I am going to give it another chance. I couldn't stand listening to music with XT, seemed to kill the dynamics and lose the clarity, as well as sounding gritty in the high end. Compared to my 2-channel system that shares the same FR+FL amp and speakers, but nothing else (my HT and 2ch systems meet at the front stereo amp, which has multiple inputs) except the source in the case of hi-rez music (BD/SACD/DVD-A). I have not even tried the XT32+SubEQ HT with 2 subs config with music so far, I was so down on it with XT. I know it'll sound a lot better now, and it would be nice to have the room FR half-decent with the Audyssey on (I always use Flat)...



What are you using for a AVR and does it have XT32?

I'm using a Denon X4000 AVR as a pre-pro. Yes it has XT32, that's the only reason I got it.

As to the AVR vs pre-pro thing: the audiophile in me is pained to not be using a pre-pro anymore. But the realist isn't. Especially after conversations from "people who know" who are higher-ups at some of the "mass market" pre-pro companies recently mentioned in this thread. smile.gif You will never ever ever see a pre-pro from them that is performance or feature equal for anything close to the price of an AVR with the same (or more) abilities (less XLRs). The realities of manufacturing: "removing amps" makes the product more expensive to make, and the result is more expensive to market just to sell in comparatively tiny numbers.

And I too have learned to stay away from the niche/smaller manufacturers of this stuff, and to stick to the majors. The little guys just can't get fixes and updates out there reliably and in a timely manner. But they do sound better in general, lots better in most cases. But as mentioned, I don't use these AVR/pre-pros for music, there's very little surround format music for the stuff I listen to so I don't need to, and my stereo system sounds so much better for the stereo stuff. Just a matter of $$ and sense to me. >>Says the guy with stacks of AVRs "lying" around...but they could have been much more expensive pre-pros. smile.gif
post #67759 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Jerry, there was someone here a while ago who has shown graphs of the second level of DEQ. I'm trying to find that post now. Stay tuned, please.

OK, I found it, here it is posted by urwi, look at the second graph that shows the dynamic behavior of compensation curves for three different input levels with MV at -30dB:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/60810#post_23098470
post #67760 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Again, I never said you should not. Now tell me what your pre/pro does that a high end AVR doesn't?

Balanced pre-outs. It's the only reason I'm going separates
post #67761 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Balanced pre-outs. It's the only reason I'm going separates



Which pre are you getting?
post #67762 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

I'm using a Denon X4000 AVR as a pre-pro. Yes it has XT32, that's the only reason I got it.

As to the AVR vs pre-pro thing: the audiophile in me is pained to not be using a pre-pro anymore. But the realist isn't. Especially after conversations from "people who know" who are higher-ups at some of the "mass market" pre-pro companies recently mentioned in this thread. smile.gif You will never ever ever see a pre-pro from them that is performance or feature equal for anything close to the price of an AVR with the same (or more) abilities (less XLRs). The realities of manufacturing: "removing amps" makes the product more expensive to make, and the result is more expensive to market just to sell in comparatively tiny numbers.

And I too have learned to stay away from the niche/smaller manufacturers of this stuff, and to stick to the majors. The little guys just can't get fixes and updates out there reliably and in a timely manner. But they do sound better in general, lots better in most cases. But as mentioned, I don't use these AVR/pre-pros for music, there's very little surround format music for the stuff I listen to so I don't need to, and my stereo system sounds so much better for the stereo stuff. Just a matter of $$ and sense to me. >>Says the guy with stacks of AVRs "lying" around...but they could have been much more expensive pre-pros. smile.gif

All valid reasons to buy an AVR.
post #67763 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I think if people would make the proper adjustments and give Audyssey a chance they might like it for music. I don't like to settle and I don't feel I'm settling with Audyssey flat and the adjustments I've made for music... Or else I'd turn it off and do it manually like I've done for 20 years prior to Audyssey. Just my two cents.

I agree. At first I didn't like what I was hearing and the lack of bass, but I've found that turning on DEQ and tweaking the sub level to personal preference sounds pretty good to me.
post #67764 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Balanced pre-outs. It's the only reason I'm going separates

Just curious. Why do you need balanced?
post #67765 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post

I agree. At first I didn't like what I was hearing and the lack of bass, but I've found that turning on DEQ and tweaking the sub level to personal preference sounds pretty good to me.



I agree and the more I listen to music the more I like what I'm hearing. Even if that means adjusting several things for different sources... Which would be easier if we had a standard for music rolleyes.gif
post #67766 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Just curious. Why do you need balanced?

Well for me, I'm using powered speakers with long cable runs and the speakers only have balanced XLR inputs. That and using powered speakers, I have no reason to have an AVR with an amplifier in it that will never be used.
post #67767 of 70885
OK so i just took another Audyssey calibration run on my X1000 (Audyssey XT) & i'm little concerned as to the crossover settings that have come up at the end. I'm running DefTech ProMonitor 1000's in the front & a ProCenter....The crossover settings after this most recent Audyssey run were 150Hz for the fronts (which seem way too high) & 60Hz for center (which is what Def Tech suggests anyway). My room is quite small (11'W x 15'D)...

Any suggestions or should I run Audyssey again?

Thanks guys!!!!
Carmine.
post #67768 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post


Kal, seeing as you've had the opportunity to listen to and test a wider variety of options than most, what were your particular standouts for REQ and how do they compare to XT32?

Anything out there available at close to the pricepoint that XT32 is available at, as well as at any pricepoint that you personally preferred?


Max

I think the XT32 is the most effective automatic EQ I have used.  ARC was comparable to XT when I compared them and I do not know what improvements have been made to ARC since then.  I also found RoomPerfect to be excellent but it comes on >$10K prepros.  There are manual EQ systems which are excellent but they demand more hardware, skill and effort.

 

(I have not used MCACC, EMOQ (both versions) or SONY.  I was not impressed with EZ-SET but I used it only on a stereo rig.  I am now reviewing a prepro with YPAO and I will withhold comment until my review is published.)

post #67769 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post

I tought this was the best forum to ask this question.


I Realy wanted to get the Marantz AV8801, but thanks to a kid of mine not taking care of her money obligation and now stuck with an extra big bill payment and POOF there goes my next pre-amp dream.


So my question is relevent to only the Audyssey XT.


Would the new Marantz AV7701 would be an inproment over the Onkyo PRS 886 release in 2009 as an AV processor with Audyssey XT?

3 years diff, maybe it is worth it even if I can not get the the XT32.

Movie only if it does make a difference.


Ray

My advice would be to wait until the Bank of Dad account has recovered and buy an XT32 unit. XT32 is so far ahead of XT that I can't, personally, honestly recommend anything else these days.  There is unlikely to be anything in the AV7701 that is sonically significantly better than the 886. I doubt you’d notice any differences if you blind tested them, but I’d eat my hat without ketchup and a beer if you failed to notice the difference between XT and XT32.

Thank you for bringing me back on the path to reson.
You are right, I better off to wait a little and don't hear in my head "what if".

Ray
post #67770 of 70885
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Which pre are you getting?

Good question. My recent reading has been mostly in regards to an ideal FR curve. At this point I want to try the curve Harman's research has shown to be most preferred. That curve is flat, but tilted to arrive at approx. a 10 dB greater gain at 20 Hz than at 16 kHz. I generally prefer my bass higher than flat and I think they're on to something. And I think the fact that so many need to bump the bass up after an Audyssey calibration is telling. I want a pre pro that is configurable enough to let me create that curve. As well, multiple EQ presets would be nice. a couple for listening to stereo in different seats, another for when just the first row is occupied, then one for when both rows are occupied.

As far as I can tell, Dirac or Trinnov are the only two solutions that can do it in a pre-pro form. I'm pretty sure the Antimode Dual Core 2.0 can do it, but that would take multiple units, not a very attractive option.

So I'm gathering info currently and trying to weigh the options. I'm also in PJ/screen research mode, so that is sucking up a lot of my time too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Just curious. Why do you need balanced?

I have a buzz out of the pre-outs on my Denon 4311 that is particularly annoying because my speakers are highly sensitive at 101 dB. I cannot figure out what's causing it. It measures with a peak centered at 500 Hz. Whether it is the fault of the RCA pre-outs I don't know for sure, but my amp is strictly XLR inputs and they are simply a superior design and connection IMO. It seems I never hear of buzz with balanced XLR pre-outs, only with RCA's (I know my little world experience doesn't mean it's true tongue.gif)

So I don't NEED XLR's, but I have reasons why I do want them biggrin.gif.
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