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post #68041 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post
 
 
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That is a great point and one I have never seen made before. By using 'reference' at home, we are in fact, subjectively, playing louder than reference. So we should ideally take into account our domestic room size. Interesting.

Actually, it WAS brought forth by Marc (FilmMixer), although potentially easily missed. At one point, I asked him specifically how his calibrated HT system sounded in comparison to the mixing stages where he worked, especially how his own soundtracks compared in his calibrated HT vs the calibrated mixing room. His reply was that it translated very well, but his calibrated HT sounded a little louder than the studio, and as such he found that -5db sounded on the calibrated HT sounded closest to the studio. Since he also uses an RLO of 5db, that effectively means that -5db with NO DEQ sounds the most accurate to him on the HT setup. That's what I've been using most often for Reference viewing since (although I do crank it up to '0' for some tracks that I particularly like biggrin.gif ).


Max

 

I actually remember the exchange now you jog my memory. I listen at about -5 or -6dB usually too - but I have DEQ set without a RLO. I will try it later with RLO of 5 and see how I get in with it. I am pleased that I can subjectively hit in my HT what Marc was hearing in his mixing room though!  

 

IIRC at the time I was using a RLO of 5 too. I used that for a long time - but since I put in all the acoustic treatments, I have drifted back to no RLO. No particular reason that I can recall why that would have happened.

post #68042 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Using DEQ for music is a bit of a lottery as all music tracks are mixed to unknown 'standards' - ie they are mixed according to the preference of the engineer who mixed them, so they could all be different to each other. DEQ was designed for movies which are mixed to a known standard. So all you can do is experiment. Some people just turn it off for music, some arrive at a 'general' setting, eg RLO of 10, some make a note on each CD as to the best setting for RLO (really) and change it accordingly when they play the disc.  

For more info on what DEQ and RKO dio, see the FAQ, here:

g)2.   What is Dynamic EQ?

g)3.   What is Reference Level Offset in Dynamic EQ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Yes, music has higher average loudness than movies, so one will normally reduce the volume to "match" the nominal movie loudness, and that tells DEQ, incorrectly, that you are listening at a lower volume, so it corrects what needs no correction. RLO addresses that.

Since actual music recordings vary substantially in loudness, the correct RLO cannot be defined. You are doing the right thing by adjusting it until you get the sound you prefer.

Yes, DEQ also adds a little to the treble, so if you do not like that, you might need a different way to add bass for music listening besides DEQ.

So by using this "bypass LR" mode, Audyssey has no affect on my front speakers. Does this mean DEQ also has no effect on my fronts? It seems that using this mode will give me what I want. I want my subwoofer EQ'd, but that is it. I found a little bit about this on the Audyssey site and they mention that they "don't recommend or support" bypass mode. This is kind of funny, because I've found that this is how my CD's sound best.

Audyssey on seems awesome for movies, but it does something to my music that sort of grates on my ears. DEQ may be to blame, too. It really does seem to change the inherent sound of my speakers. While that's great for TV and movies, it's not so hot for tunes. I suppose Audyssey was mainly designed for HT and not 2-channel music?
post #68043 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Using DEQ for music is a bit of a lottery as all music tracks are mixed to unknown 'standards' - ie they are mixed according to the preference of the engineer who mixed them, so they could all be different to each other. DEQ was designed for movies which are mixed to a known standard. So all you can do is experiment. Some people just turn it off for music, some arrive at a 'general' setting, eg RLO of 10, some make a note on each CD as to the best setting for RLO (really) and change it accordingly when they play the disc.  

For more info on what DEQ and RKO dio, see the FAQ, here:

g)2.   What is Dynamic EQ?

g)3.   What is Reference Level Offset in Dynamic EQ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Yes, music has higher average loudness than movies, so one will normally reduce the volume to "match" the nominal movie loudness, and that tells DEQ, incorrectly, that you are listening at a lower volume, so it corrects what needs no correction. RLO addresses that.

Since actual music recordings vary substantially in loudness, the correct RLO cannot be defined. You are doing the right thing by adjusting it until you get the sound you prefer.

Yes, DEQ also adds a little to the treble, so if you do not like that, you might need a different way to add bass for music listening besides DEQ.

So by using this "bypass LR" mode, Audyssey has no affect on my front speakers. Does this mean DEQ also has no effect on my fronts? It seems that using this mode will give me what I want. I want my subwoofer EQ'd, but that is it. I found a little bit about this on the Audyssey site and they mention that they "don't recommend or support" bypass mode. This is kind of funny, because I've found that this is how my CD's sound best.

Audyssey on seems awesome for movies, but it does something to my music that sort of grates on my ears. DEQ may be to blame, too. It really does seem to change the inherent sound of my speakers. While that's great for TV and movies, it's not so hot for tunes. I suppose Audyssey was mainly designed for HT and not 2-channel music?

 

I don't know what 'bypass mode' is - is it a Denon thing?  If so, someone like batpig or jdsmoothie will be the best person to answer you as they are the resident Denon experts.

 

As I said, DEQ will never really reliably work with music - you have to experiment with RLO to get it as close as you can to what you are looking for. You may never find a setting that pleases you, in which case turn DEQ off for music.

 

All that DEQ does (simplified answer) is boost the bass (and the treble a little) to compensate for the way we hear things as the volume is turned down. As you probably know, human hearing falls off more rapidly for bass notes than for the rest of the spectrum so as you turn down the volume you need to boost the bass to restore it to its correct, perceived level. 

 

There is no 'magic button' for DEQ with music. As I explained, it was designed to be used with movie soundtracks which are mixed to a known standard. If you cannot find a DEQ/RLO setting that you like, then you will need to find another means of boosting the bass for lower level listening. Your AVR probably has these other means - look for Dolby Volume and if your unit is THX certified, THX Loudness Plus which does a similar thing to DEQ. At its simplest you could just raise the sub gain in the AVR trims (not on the sub or it will be difficult to get it back to the calibrated level when listening to movies) when listening to music at lowish levels on the MV.

post #68044 of 70896
Bypass L/R is on my Marantz also, and it does bypass Audyssey for the L&R mains, but Audyssey is still EQing all other speakers when in that mode. This is from Chris K on his site;



"Some manufacturers have decided to implement a Bypass L/R (or Front) setting. This uses the MultEQ filters that were calculated for the entire listening area, but it does not apply any filtering to the front left and right loudspeakers. The average measured response from the front left and right loudspeakers is used as the target curve for the remaining loudspeakers in the system. The subwoofer in this case is equalized to flat as is the case for all the settings described above. This is not a setting recommended by Audyssey.

In some products, there is a Manual EQ setting. This is a traditional parametric equalizer that does not use the MultEQ filters or the Audyssey measurement process at all"
Edited by comfynumb - 12/14/13 at 9:40am
post #68045 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks. I am now at least following the sense of the discussion smile.gif I  am clear wrt to the potential for speaker distortion - but wrt to amps the spec for my own amps says that distortion is less than 0.1% at its rated max power output, so I am still not sure where an amp has any significant parameter (ie audible) other than clipping.
In the case of your amp, it doesn't. Not all amps have the same characteristics to distortion and/or clipping as yours does and, for some other amp, distortion could start rising well before clipping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Just as I thought I was getting it - I just checked the published distortion figures for my XPA-3 amp and it says "330 watts RMS @ 4 ohm (<0.1% THD)". So on that basis it seems it will deliver its rated power with vanishingly small distortion, which is certainly below the threshold of audibility.  So I am back to square one now - what else other than clipping will be a factor for this amp, if it can deliver the required SPLs without clipping?

From the Secrets Bench Test, "Power output at 8 ohms is very solid up to 300 watts (0.04% THD+N), before a rapid rise to clipping (1% THD+N) at 340 watts. At 4 ohms, output reached 400 watts (0.07% THD+N) before the rise to clipping at 480 watts. No question, the XPA-2 will really put out some juice" ( Link: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-amplifiers/power-amplifiers-reviews/a-secrets-power-amplifier-review89/page-4-the-emotiva-xpa-2-power-amplifier-on-the-bench.html)

Of course, every amp will have a different "knee" where distortion rises to clipping. For some that knee happens before the claimed rated wattage, some right before it (your amp), and others long after(or what can be called conservatively rated amps). If you need 400 watts to deliver 108 dB at the MLP and the amp delivers a clean 400 watts, then technically you can call it a day. But if the amp will start horribly clipping at 420 watts you better make sure you put the volume limiter on in your AVR because if you're careless and bump the volume rocker on your remote, accidentally putting the volume even +1 dB over reference, you will be clipping the signal to your speakers. Not good.

Personally, I don't like being that close to sending a clipped signal to my speakers. It's just another reason I like some "headroom" to provide reasonable distance between clean power and distortion and/or clipping.

Going back to your prior examples Keith to highlight this point. With your own speakers, if you plug 108 dB into the calculation to account for crest factor you will find the numbers are not favorable



Even for an excellent speaker such as yours, the capabilities required for reference level playback are a large hurdle to overcome and small adjustments to the inputs or outputs can change the situation quickly. The M&K's are well engineered and I suspect they are conservatively rated in regards to their power handling. They are likely more capable than the numbers show, but regardless, it's clear there is a possibility you could be clipping peaks. And you may not pick up on that clipping. If you read Danley's comments I linked you can see that it may happen where you don't expect it and require a good ear to hear it.

Using my 101 dB sensitive speakers as an example at 12 ft.(my MLP), even with 3 dB amp headroom, highlights the advantage of sensitivity for reference level playback



My speakers have a program rating of 2000 watts and I drive them with 2000+ watt amplifier. I'm certain I'm not clipping soundtrack peaks, regardless of the crest factor. However, with some highly dynamic material, such as the tracks referenced in the Danley link earlier, I cannot be so sure, even with that capability.

Now please, this is not an attack on anyone's speakers, system, or listening preferences. Particularly Keith, as I used yours in this post. Although I haven't heard your speakers, they are excellent by every account I've ever read. I am hesitant to even post this because I know it is easy to inadvertently offend. Not everyone cares to listen at reference or to climb aboard the train to ever diminishing returns in its pursuit. I have set a goal of clean reference level playback based on the numbers with cushion(or headroom), but I know everyone doesn't subscribe to that philosophy and that is okay by me. As well, the differences between excellent systems are small and the issues raised above are well into the diminishing returns category and may not even be appreciated by all ears.

No attacks, insults, or superiority crap here, just discussion. I have a highly capable system but I don't feel special or superior to anyone else's system. I didn't design it and am simply blessed to be able to afford to purchase it. And if I have something wrong then i'm par for the course biggrin.gif. I'm just an enthusiast with an opinion, like most here. wink.gifsmile.gif
post #68046 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't know what 'bypass mode' is - is it a Denon thing?  If so, someone like batpig or jdsmoothie will be the best person to answer you as they are the resident Denon experts.

As I said, DEQ will never really reliably work with music - you have to experiment with RLO to get it as close as you can to what you are looking for. You may never find a setting that pleases you, in which case turn DEQ off for music.

All that DEQ does (simplified answer) is boost the bass (and the treble a little) to compensate for the way we hear things as the volume is turned down. As you probably know, human hearing falls off more rapidly for bass notes than for the rest of the spectrum so as you turn down the volume you need to boost the bass to restore it to its correct, perceived level. 

There is no 'magic button' for DEQ with music. As I explained, it was designed to be used with movie soundtracks which are mixed to a known standard. If you cannot find a DEQ/RLO setting that you like, then you will need to find another means of boosting the bass for lower level listening. Your AVR probably has these other means - look for Dolby Volume and if your unit is THX certified, THX Loudness Plus which does a similar thing to DEQ. At its simplest you could just raise the sub gain in the AVR trims (not on the sub or it will be difficult to get it back to the calibrated level when listening to movies) when listening to music at lowish levels on the MV.

Mine's a Marantz, but I think I read the Denons have it, too. For me, this bypass mode seems to be the ticket for music. Since I don't have surrounds hooked up, it's basically bypassing my whole system except for the sub (I think).
post #68047 of 70896
Awesome works guys on putting all this info together. This thread is very informative and made it much easier to understand Audyssey compared to years ago.

I went through a few runs and now I have some questions and would appreciate feedback on my setup. I do have multiple rooms with 5.1/7/.1 setups but after going through this once I should be ready to rock on the next rooms.

My setup for this room is the following:

Receiver Denon AVR-X2000
Fronts Polk Audio RTi-A3
Rears Polk Audio RC60i In ceiling
Sub DSWPro400

These were my results from running Audyssey


Dialog Level -4.5db

Speakers Front Large
Center Small
Rears Small

Disatances Pretty much dead center

Sub Level +2db

Crossovers Front Full
Center 40
Rears 110
Sub 120 LFE


My seating position for this room is not the greatest. I have no center seating position. Because of layout limitations of my living room my couches run on the side of the room , so there is no actual seating positing that's center in the room. In the center of the room is a coffee table that runs length wise facing the television. I do sometimes sit on my coffee table and play XBOX haha.


Questions

1) Because of my room seating limitations I setup my first position in the center of the room (on top of the coffee table at ear level). Was this the right place to start? In other runs of calibrating I started on the one side of a room and it was showing distances based on my first position. By placing it on the coffee table my distances were dead on equal.


2) I got a Subwoofer Level of +2db. From the reading Ive done anywhere between -3 and +3 sees fine. Should I leave it where it is?


3) Does changing db levels of the dialog level, subwoofer level affect Audyssey?


4) I have equalizer presets and volume control on my sub. Will changing the volume levels or selecting "Corner" on my sub settings mess with Audyssey?


5) Dynamic Equalizer and Dynamic Volume. Whats the consensus on this? Dynamic Volume seems like a good idea for TV to control volume fluctuations for when commercials come on but what about movies? LIGHT or OFF?


6) My Manual Changes based on what I read. Please critique or make any suggestions. Thanks

Speakers Front Small
Center Small
Rears Small

Sub Level +2db

Crossovers Front 80 When I change to small it goes to 40
Center 80
Rears 90 I thought I read its fine to increase crossovers but not decrease. Should I just leave it @ 110?
Sub 120 LFE

Dynamic EQ ON ALWAYS
Dyanamic Volume MEDIUM for TV. LIGHT for Movies and Games



Thanks for any suggestions, constructive criticism is welcomed. Thanks to everyone in advance smile.gif
post #68048 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desisuperman View Post

Awesome works guys on putting all this info together. This thread is very informative and made it much easier to understand Audyssey compared to years ago.

I went through a few runs and now I have some questions and would appreciate feedback on my setup. I do have multiple rooms with 5.1/7/.1 setups but after going through this once I should be ready to rock on the next rooms.

My setup for this room is the following:

Receiver Denon AVR-X2000
Fronts Polk Audio RTi-A3
Rears Polk Audio RC60i In ceiling
Sub DSWPro400

These were my results from running Audyssey


Dialog Level -4.5db

Speakers Front Large
Center Small
Rears Small

Disatances Pretty much dead center

Sub Level +2db

Crossovers Front Full
Center 40
Rears 110
Sub 120 LFE


My seating position for this room is not the greatest. I have no center seating position. Because of layout limitations of my living room my couches run on the side of the room , so there is no actual seating positing that's center in the room. In the center of the room is a coffee table that runs length wise facing the television. I do sometimes sit on my coffee table and play XBOX haha.


Questions



Keep in mind, I'm still learning here, too, but this is what's worked for me...

1) Because of my room seating limitations I setup my first position in the center of the room (on top of the coffee table at ear level). Was this the right place to start? In other runs of calibrating I started on the one side of a room and it was showing distances based on my first position. By placing it on the coffee table my distances were dead on equal.

I read that your #1 measuring position should be you main listening position. So for example, if you always sit on the left side of the couch, use that for #1.



2) I got a Subwoofer Level of +2db. From the reading Ive done anywhere between -3 and +3 sees fine. Should I leave it where it is?

That seems reasonable. I left my sub level as is (as set by Audyssey) for movies, but I've found I need to bump it up for music.


3) Does changing db levels of the dialog level, subwoofer level affect Audyssey?

I've read that changing levels wont' affect calibration. BUT, if you raise/lower the sub level, it can affect the way dynamic EQ works.


4) I have equalizer presets and volume control on my sub. Will changing the volume levels or selecting "Corner" on my sub settings mess with Audyssey?

I think you should set all those before the calibration and then leave them alone. If you want to change sub levels, do it through your AVR.


5) Dynamic Equalizer and Dynamic Volume. Whats the consensus on this? Dynamic Volume seems like a good idea for TV to control volume fluctuations for when commercials come on but what about movies? LIGHT or OFF?

I don't use dynamic volume, but I find that dynamic EQ is pretty nice. For TV, I have the reference offset at 10 dB. For movies you can leave the offset at 0 unless you changed the subs level. I found that if I raised the sub level AND used DEQ, it seems to add too much bass.


6) My Manual Changes based on what I read. Please critique or make any suggestions. Thanks

Speakers Front Small
Center Small
Rears Small

Sub Level +2db

Crossovers Front 80 When I change to small it goes to 40
Center 80
Rears 90 I thought I read its fine to increase crossovers but not decrease. Should I just leave it @ 110?
Sub 120 LFE

Dynamic EQ ON ALWAYS
Dyanamic Volume MEDIUM for TV. LIGHT for Movies and Games


I think you did the right thing with the manual changes. I set all my speakers to small and set the crossover to 80 Hz for ALL speakers. Although I've read that as long as you don't set it lower than what Audyssey set originally, you should be fine. It sounds like you're at a good starting point. You can always experiment by tweaking the settings a bit



Thanks for any suggestions, constructive criticism is welcomed. Thanks to everyone in advance smile.gif
post #68049 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Crest factor is the difference between the SPL average and peak, which varies depending on the waveform.

The 6 dB I referenced above was in reference to the difference between a sine wave rms and the peak, and is wrong since that value is 3 dB. I have measured 5 dB peaks above the 105 dB c weight average in my system, so I got those numbers mixed up in my head. I will correct those posts. But the fact that peaks exceed 105 dB in a properly mastered soundtrack remains true.
The SMPTE definition of 0 dBFS is "the amplitude of a 997-Hz sine wave whose positive peak value reaches the positive digital full scale," in other words, the maximum unclipped sine wave. It is true that were one to use, say, a square wave, the signal level would read 3 dB louder on an RMS SPL or volt meter, but the peak voltage excursion wrt the power amp's output would be the same.
Quote:
I have read varying numbers as to crest values and I don't have a definitive answer other than peaks are higher than the 105 dB c weighted average.
As in the square wave example, the "peak SPL" (as read by an RMS responding SPL meter) can indeed read 3 dB higher than for sine waves. No other waveform can read higher than that -- electrically. In other words, no waveform, including the square wave, requires any more signal excursion capability (say, at the DAC output or the amplifier output) than the sine wave.

I do not claim you cannot read higher levels, such as the 105+5 dB SPLs you mention. That could be a result of room's acoustic response not being ruler flat, combined with reverb which holds (compounds) energy particularly in the bass region.
post #68050 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks. I am now at least following the sense of the discussion smile.gif I  am clear wrt to the potential for speaker distortion - but wrt to amps the spec for my own amps says that distortion is less than 0.1% at its rated max power output, so I am still not sure where an amp has any significant parameter (ie audible) other than clipping.
In the case of your amp, it doesn't. Not all amps have the same characteristics to distortion and/or clipping as yours does and, for some other amp, distortion could start rising well before clipping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Just as I thought I was getting it - I just checked the published distortion figures for my XPA-3 amp and it says "330 watts RMS @ 4 ohm (<0.1% THD)". So on that basis it seems it will deliver its rated power with vanishingly small distortion, which is certainly below the threshold of audibility.  So I am back to square one now - what else other than clipping will be a factor for this amp, if it can deliver the required SPLs without clipping?

From the Secrets Bench Test, "Power output at 8 ohms is very solid up to 300 watts (0.04% THD+N), before a rapid rise to clipping (1% THD+N) at 340 watts. At 4 ohms, output reached 400 watts (0.07% THD+N) before the rise to clipping at 480 watts. No question, the XPA-2 will really put out some juice" ( Link: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-amplifiers/power-amplifiers-reviews/a-secrets-power-amplifier-review89/page-4-the-emotiva-xpa-2-power-amplifier-on-the-bench.html)

Of course, every amp will have a different "knee" where distortion rises to clipping. For some that knee happens before the claimed rated wattage, some right before it (your amp), and others long after(or what can be called conservatively rated amps). If you need 400 watts to deliver 108 dB at the MLP and the amp delivers a clean 400 watts, then technically you can call it a day. But if the amp will start horribly clipping at 420 watts you better make sure you put the volume limiter on in your AVR because if you're careless and bump the volume rocker on your remote, accidentally putting the volume even +1 dB over reference, you will be clipping the signal to your speakers. Not good.

Personally, I don't like being that close to sending a clipped signal to my speakers. It's just another reason I like some "headroom" to provide reasonable distance between clean power and distortion and/or clipping.

Going back to your prior examples Keith to highlight this point. With your own speakers, if you plug 108 dB into the calculation to account for crest factor you will find the numbers are not favorable



Even for an excellent speaker such as yours, the capabilities required for reference level playback are a large hurdle to overcome and small adjustments to the inputs or outputs can change the situation quickly. The M&K's are well engineered and I suspect they are conservatively rated in regards to their power handling. They are likely more capable than the numbers show, but regardless, it's clear there is a possibility you could be clipping peaks. And you may not pick up on that clipping. If you read Danley's comments I linked you can see that it may happen where you don't expect it and require a good ear to hear it.

Using my 101 dB sensitive speakers as an example at 12 ft.(my MLP), even with 3 dB amp headroom, highlights the advantage of sensitivity for reference level playback



My speakers have a program rating of 2000 watts and I drive them with 2000+ watt amplifier. I'm certain I'm not clipping soundtrack peaks, regardless of the crest factor. However, with some highly dynamic material, such as the tracks referenced in the Danley link earlier, I cannot be so sure, even with that capability.

Now please, this is not an attack on anyone's speakers, system, or listening preferences. Particularly Keith, as I used yours in this post. Although I haven't heard your speakers, they are excellent by every account I've ever read. I am hesitant to even post this because I know it is easy to inadvertently offend. Not everyone cares to listen at reference or to climb aboard the train to ever diminishing returns in its pursuit. I have set a goal of clean reference level playback based on the numbers with cushion(or headroom), but I know everyone doesn't subscribe to that philosophy and that is okay by me. As well, the differences between excellent systems are small and the issues raised above are well into the diminishing returns category and may not even be appreciated by all ears.

No attacks, insults, or superiority crap here, just discussion. I have a highly capable system but I don't feel special or superior to anyone else's system. I didn't design it and am simply blessed to be able to afford to purchase it. And if I have something wrong then i'm par for the course biggrin.gif. I'm just an enthusiast with an opinion, like most here. wink.gifsmile.gif

 

No worries. But I think I don't subscribe to this "additional headroom" idea you know. Like Roger, I just can't see what additional headroom over and above the required headroom can achieve. If the system can play the desired SPL - whatever that level is - without distortion then the headroom is adequate.

 

I am confident my own speakers (M&K S150s) can play at Reference cleanly because the THX Ultra 2 certification guarantees that. Not to mention that they have been used in the production of numerous movies. Plus of course, my own ears bear witness to it every day.

 

HST, I am with you on the general point about sensitive speakers often sounding more dynamic, and also the notion that plenty of power can never be a bad thing.  I also admire your overall approach to the pursuit of excellent sound, and am sure you have achieved it.  I think we may be discussing ourselves into circles whereas we are in agreement on far more things than we are in disagreement on.

post #68051 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Bypass L/R is on my Marantz also, and it does bypass Audyssey for the L&R mains, but Audyssey is still EQing all other speakers when in that mode. This is from Chris K on his site;



"Some manufacturers have decided to implement a Bypass L/R (or Front) setting. This uses the MultEQ filters that were calculated for the entire listening area, but it does not apply any filtering to the front left and right loudspeakers. The average measured response from the front left and right loudspeakers is used as the target curve for the remaining loudspeakers in the system. The subwoofer in this case is equalized to flat as is the case for all the settings described above. This is not a setting recommended by Audyssey.

In some products, there is a Manual EQ setting. This is a traditional parametric equalizer that does not use the MultEQ filters or the Audyssey measurement process at all"

 

Thanks Comfy. It sounds, er, weird. The idea I mean. 

post #68052 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't know what 'bypass mode' is - is it a Denon thing?  If so, someone like batpig or jdsmoothie will be the best person to answer you as they are the resident Denon experts.

As I said, DEQ will never really reliably work with music - you have to experiment with RLO to get it as close as you can to what you are looking for. You may never find a setting that pleases you, in which case turn DEQ off for music.

All that DEQ does (simplified answer) is boost the bass (and the treble a little) to compensate for the way we hear things as the volume is turned down. As you probably know, human hearing falls off more rapidly for bass notes than for the rest of the spectrum so as you turn down the volume you need to boost the bass to restore it to its correct, perceived level. 

There is no 'magic button' for DEQ with music. As I explained, it was designed to be used with movie soundtracks which are mixed to a known standard. If you cannot find a DEQ/RLO setting that you like, then you will need to find another means of boosting the bass for lower level listening. Your AVR probably has these other means - look for Dolby Volume and if your unit is THX certified, THX Loudness Plus which does a similar thing to DEQ. At its simplest you could just raise the sub gain in the AVR trims (not on the sub or it will be difficult to get it back to the calibrated level when listening to movies) when listening to music at lowish levels on the MV.

Mine's a Marantz, but I think I read the Denons have it, too. For me, this bypass mode seems to be the ticket for music. Since I don't have surrounds hooked up, it's basically bypassing my whole system except for the sub (I think).

 

if it works for you, and you are happy with the sound, that is the most important thing. Just sit back and enjoy!

post #68053 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
 
I do not claim you cannot read higher levels, such as the 105+5 dB SPLs you mention. That could be a result of room's acoustic response not being ruler flat, combined with reverb which holds (compounds) energy particularly in the bass region.

 

Roger, AIUI, the reference standard of 105dB peak is for each speaker. If that is correct then when playing more than one speaker at the same time, as in a movie, wouldn't this raise the probability that the overall sound level in the room could exceed 105dB?  

 

Although this recent discussion started originally from a bad place, it has turned out to be extremely interesting.

post #68054 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks Comfy. It sounds, er, weird. The idea I mean. 



No problem, I just never realized this was a per manufacturer setting and not only does it sound weird... It sounds weird IMO, it's like have Audyssey half on. I can see where some people might like it, but I must be really used too Audyssey because it just sounds lacking to me.
post #68055 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks Comfy. It sounds, er, weird. The idea I mean. 



No problem, I just never realized this was a per manufacturer setting and not only does it sound weird... It sounds weird IMO, it's like have Audyssey half on. I can see where some people might like it, but I must be really used too Audyssey because it just sounds lacking to me.

 

hehe - yes, 'half on'. Good description. I'm not surprised Audyssey don't recommend it ;)

post #68056 of 70896
i
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

hehe - yes, 'half on'. Good description. I'm not surprised Audyssey don't recommend it wink.gif

It would makes sense as a feature if the potential audience for it were two-channel purists that only wanted the sub(s) EQ'd. Kind of an integrated version of the old AS-EQ1 in an XT32 level AVR, or a way to avoid EQing the higher frequencies if you had XT and L/R speakers with a high crossover in a stereo only system and didn't like what Audyssey did to the mains. Otherwise it's a pointless feature IMO.
post #68057 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

But not at 105 dB -- in a calibrated movie system. What you are saying is that there is a crest factor for audio signals, like movies sound, music, even pink noise. That's true. If any of such audio 's crests (peaks) reach 105 dB, the average SPL will be lower by the crest factor, in your example, 6 dB lower for a 6 dB crest factor.

The only signal that can have an average SPL at 105 dB is a sine wave. Otherwise is is clipped madly.

Roger, thanks for the reply, but you lost me a bit there. I think I followed the logic of what you were saying, right up to the conclusion. I think you're saying that real signals don't behave like sine waves in regards to crest factor? I pretty much get that but I have to say the question of whether the peaks of a soundtrack can exceed 105 dB, and particularly by how much, is still an unanswered question for me.

I have measured single speaker soundtrack wtih c-weighted average SPL not exceeding 105 dB but peaks peaks of 110 dB on my system. That is with an Audyssey Pro calibrated system at 0 reference on the MV control. The soundtrack was Master and Commander: FSOW, a well respected mix.

So what is going on here to explain those measurements? I have assumed it was crest factor, but I'm really not sure about it.

Can anyone correlate these graphs to real life movie soundtracks? (taken from here: http://www.bnoack.com/index.html?http&&&www.bnoack.com/audio/crestfactor.html)
Crest Factor Examples:

post #68058 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

No worries. But I think I don't subscribe to this "additional headroom" idea you know. Like Roger, I just can't see what additional headroom over and above the required headroom can achieve. If the system can play the desired SPL - whatever that level is - without distortion then the headroom is adequate.

I am confident my own speakers (M&K S150s) can play at Reference cleanly because the THX Ultra 2 certification guarantees that. Not to mention that they have been used in the production of numerous movies. Plus of course, my own ears bear witness to it every day.

HST, I am with you on the general point about sensitive speakers often sounding more dynamic, and also the notion that plenty of power can never be a bad thing.  I also admire your overall approach to the pursuit of excellent sound, and am sure you have achieved it.  I think we may be discussing ourselves into circles whereas we are in agreement on far more things than we are in disagreement on.

Agreed, I really don't think we're in disagreement. And again, I was just simply running numbers up there and I make no claims or dispute as to the SQ, or lack thereof, of anyones system.

It just seems that every time I get into this particular topic I find myself wallowing in the weeds of the science behind it all and my measurements that don't always add up.

I welcome Roger in this because I want to get a better understanding and I hope he doesn't leave in disgust as I try to better understand the topic. smile.gif
post #68059 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Roger, AIUI, the reference standard of 105dB peak is for each speaker. If that is correct then when playing more than one speaker at the same time, as in a movie, wouldn't this raise the probability that the overall sound level in the room could exceed 105dB?
Absolutely right. I was assuming we were discussing a single channel. I have heard, anecdotally, of large room 5.1 playback reaching 111 dB SPL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I think you're saying that real signals don't behave like sine waves in regards to crest factor?
Yes.
Quote:
I have measured single speaker soundtrack with c-weighted average SPL not exceeding 105 dB but peaks peaks of 110 dB on my system. That is with an Audyssey Pro calibrated system at 0 reference on the MV control. The soundtrack was Master and Commander: FSOW, a well respected mix. So what is going on here to explain those measurements? I have assumed it was crest factor, but I'm really not sure about it.
I think is it room acoustics affecting the SPL readings.
post #68060 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

No problem, I just never realized this was a per manufacturer setting and not only does it sound weird... It sounds weird IMO, it's like have Audyssey half on. I can see where some people might like it, but I must be really used too Audyssey because it just sounds lacking to me.

This is not always the case wink.gif and depending on several factors (placement of FR/FL , source material and room treatments) the bypass can indeed be a very useful feature when using a sub and only want to correct the bass in said sub . while the many different options that exist at one's fingertips can be daunting at times ,it will always comes down to what sounds best to you and you alone. for instance the "dogma" surrounding using the Mains+ sub feature for music is IMHO handy at times when you just simply want more weight period , this coupled with DEQ with a offset of 5 with full Auydyssey correction can indeed sound fantastic if your setup is not producing boomy bass from the get go of course (good subs and mains do help) Now as for all the talk about Audyssey and music in general is interesting to say the least, and my findings have been nothing short of stellar with multi/ch sacd especially with my reference collection of classical ! i know these disc well and have come from listening to them mostly in 2/ch DSD (no conversion,Auydyssey or bass mngt or distance settings in the chain) and of course the switch there respective multi/ch versions with Audyssey (no mains +sub, just the calibration results incarnate) and yes even DEQ at 5 or 0 or off ,are some of the best playback experiences I've ever had even with the down sampling done in my Marantz 8801 eek.gif as for regular CD's and hires files , Pandora, Youtube or all else Audyssey can deliver the goods if and only if its done right.

There are no right or wrongs here period! and the final result must always be done by your ears or what's the point at all cool.gif
post #68061 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The SMPTE definition of 0 dBFS is "the amplitude of a 997-Hz sine wave whose positive peak value reaches the positive digital full scale," in other words, the maximum unclipped sine wave. It is true that were one to use, say, a square wave, the signal level would read 3 dB louder on an RMS SPL or volt meter, but the peak voltage excursion wrt the power amp's output would be the same.
As in the square wave example, the "peak SPL" (as read by an RMS responding SPL meter) can indeed read 3 dB higher than for sine waves. No other waveform can read higher than that -- electrically. In other words, no waveform, including the square wave, requires any more signal excursion capability (say, at the DAC output or the amplifier output) than the sine wave.

I do not claim you cannot read higher levels, such as the 105+5 dB SPLs you mention. That could be a result of room's acoustic response not being ruler flat, combined with reverb which holds (compounds) energy particularly in the bass region.

Roger, thanks for that.. I think I get it when looking at sine waves and square waves. But what about actual soundtracks, or music in soundtracks?

I understand the sine wave crest factor

But what about this real world signal?
How can these other signal have crest factors of up to 20 dB playing at the same 0 dB rms as the sine wave? Would those music "crest factor" peaks be at 105 dB if they were contained on a movie soundtrack? If the answer is yes then I think I'm moving a bit closer to understanding and this makes sense when I tie it together with dynamic range compression and why that's necessary for music in cars, etc where ambient noise would make it impossible to hear the parts played at 0 dB rms.

Sorry for what may be stupid questions Roger!
Edited by Gooddoc - 12/14/13 at 1:57pm
post #68062 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


I think is it room acoustics affecting the SPL readings.

Ok, I am thinking you are right about that too as I am getting a handle on this (I think smile.gif).

I would have assumed that by measuring my room Audyssey would adjust for that with the trim gains?

Edit: I really think this topic is like 50 first dates with me. I discuss it, never really end up with a total understanding, then go through the whole process from what seems like the start next time it comes up biggrin.gif. But I'm a gunna git it this time! tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
Edited by Gooddoc - 12/14/13 at 2:06pm
post #68063 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

i


It would makes sense as a feature if the potential audience for it were two-channel purists that only wanted the sub(s) EQ'd. Kind of an integrated version of the old AS-EQ1 in an XT32 level AVR, or a way to avoid EQing the higher frequencies if you had XT and L/R speakers with a high crossover in a stereo only system and didn't like what Audyssey did to the mains. Otherwise it's a pointless feature IMO.

This is exactly why I like it. My HT system is also my music system, so it's nice to have this option. IMO, the affect that Audyssey has on my speakers is great for bringing out dialogue and clarity in movies, but it's not quite right for 2-channel material. I'm not sure it makes sense to buy speakers because I like the way the sound, and then EQ the heck out of them...at least not when I'm rocking out to my tunes smile.gif

Also, I've read that bass is usually the "problem child" as far as room acoustics go. By leaving Audy on for just the sub, I get more optimum bass without messing with my mains.
post #68064 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

How can these other signal have crest factors of up to 20 dB playing at the same 0 dB rms as the sine wave? Would those music "crest factor" peaks be at 105 dB if they were contained on a movie soundtrack?
Yes! You've got it. That music will have a long term average of 85 dB, not 105 dB SPL.
Quote:
If the answer is yes then I think I'm moving a bit closer to understanding and this makes sense when I tie it together with dynamic range compression and why that's necessary for music in cars, etc where ambient noise would make it impossible to hear the parts played at 0 dB rms.
That's a different topic. biggrin.gif
post #68065 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Ok, I am thinking you are right about that too as I am getting a handle on this (I think smile.gif).

I would have assumed that by measuring my room Audyssey would adjust for that with the trim gains?
Audyssey cannot remove reverb. And we want the direct sounds to remain at the right levels, so trimming down would not be a good idea.
post #68066 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Audyssey cannot remove reverb. And we want the direct sounds to remain at the right levels, so trimming down would not be a good idea.

Ok. Those measurements of mine have seriously contributed to making the understanding of this very difficult. So I should see those peaks drop away when I put my room treatments up and get a decent RT60 in my room then. I'll be sure to report those findings Roger! I really do appreciate your help.

And Keith, your understanding is correct in regards to the peak SPL. I stand corrected on the matter.
post #68067 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Roger, AIUI, the reference standard of 105dB peak is for each speaker. If that is correct then when playing more than one speaker at the same time, as in a movie, wouldn't this raise the probability that the overall sound level in the room could exceed 105dB?
Absolutely right. I was assuming we were discussing a single channel. I have heard, anecdotally, of large room 5.1 playback reaching 111 dB SPL.

 

Thanks for the confirmation.

post #68068 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
 
 
And Keith, your understanding is correct in regards to the peak SPL. I stand corrected on the matter.

 

It's been a fascinating discussion. And thanks, as ever, to Roger for his insights.

post #68069 of 70896
OK so i just took another Audyssey calibration run on my X1000 (Audyssey XT) & i'm little concerned as to the crossover settings that have come up at the end. I'm running DefTech ProMonitor 1000's in the front & a ProCenter....The crossover settings after this most recent Audyssey run were 150Hz for the fronts (which seem way too high) & 60Hz for center (which is what Def Tech suggests anyway). My room is quite small (11'W x 15'D)...

Any suggestions or should I run Audyssey again?

Thanks guys!!!!
Carmine.
post #68070 of 70896



Regarding DEQ & RLO, Chris has always said the above, but little else. Does anyone here have an opinion on what DEQ @ RLO -10 does when the master volume is 0db to -9db? What does it do to "preserve the reference balance" once the MV has gone louder than the RLO is set? Less bass? Lower surround levels?

I would like to run with a -10 or -15 RLO but it bugs the crap out of me that I don't have the slightest clue of what DEQ does when the MV is turned louder, and Chris has always treated this question like he's protecting launch codes............. Anyone care to guess, or better yet have any real idea what happens?
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