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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2308

post #69211 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank D View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

All recent Denon manuals have the exact same illustration of measurement points.

For example, the chart in the 4520CI manual with XT32:

 wink.gif


I just purchased a Denon AVR 4000. This picture shows that even for one seat that you should take several measurements that are perhaps about 2 to 3 feet or so apart.

How important is to take 6 or 8 measurements vs say just 2 near the sweet spot ear area?

Shouldn't 2 be better since you only have one seat/sweet spot?

If you should take all 8 measurement than would measurements taken much close to the sweet spot (ie within say 1 foot around single listeners ear area) be better?

Has anyone tested the above theory?

 

Yes  - it has been tested to destruction :)  See the FAQ link SoM directed you to. Many of us who are only interested in one listening position take all 8 measurements tightly around the MLP - say at  12 inch distances and find that this gives us the best result for just one seat. Our ears and our independent measurements confirm this.

 

You have to remember how Audyssey works - it is designed to make "every seat a good seat". By definition, that means no one seat is a great seat. In attempting to provide a consistently good result for several seats, it delivers a sub-optimal result for every seat. By clustering around just one seat you can get an optimal result, but for that one seat only. So you need to determine your priorities. If most of the time you are the only listener, or if the other listeners don't care, then measure around the MLP. If you have several critical listeners, then measure a wider area.

 

But do remember that Audyssey cannot deliver an optimal result for several seats and is not designed to do so.

post #69212 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Since you're one of the few folks with a calibrated SPL meter, have you ever tried measuring the resulting SPLs first, with the internal test tones (which you obviously have) and then, with the SPL meter in the same spot, test tones played off a CD/DVD/BD through a player connected to the avr with Audyssey ON, to see if there's a difference in level between the measurements done both ways?

Sorry. I don't have a test tone CD/DVD/BD to use as an example. Why? It never occurred to me that this was a tool I needed. As long as I can gain the skills and tools to create a flat +/- 3dB graph and obtain continuous reference level playback with headroom to spare, I'm a happy camper.

(currently dialing in the addition of a universal blu-ray player)
post #69213 of 70884
Hey guys, not a 100% Audyssey question, but I respect the participants of this thread so much that I wanted to ask here. My question is regarding the manual EQ and bass management:

1) If for example I set the 63hz band for the L/R/SUR for -10db, what happens when I set a x-over point for say 100hz? Does my AVR trim the L/R/SUR -10db, and then send that trimmed signal to the sub, or does the AVR ingore the -10db trim since it's below the selected x-over point of 100hz?

2) Same as above, but this time I set a 60hz x-over for all channels. Now the x-over is right in the middle of the selected 63h band, so now what happens?

Thanks in advance guys, just trying to wrap my head around what happens. smile.gif
post #69214 of 70884
^^^
You must be reading my mind I just posted on the 8801 thread about the manual EQ. I'm finding Audyssey flat a little bright and thin for music and was going try and manual EQ.


Edit;
When I ran Audyssey my distances from all of my speakers were nearly a foot off from the actual measurements. I reset the distances and and played with the EQ somewhat and I have it sounding really good for music. I wish there was a way to toggle back and forth between Audyssey for movies and graphic EQ for music that keeps my settings, like distances.
Edited by comfynumb - 1/22/14 at 10:01am
post #69215 of 70884
I started a thread asking about this in the subwoofer forum. I will also post my question here since it concerns audyssey. If it is relevant, my avr is a denon 4520.

I have mirage omd28 speakers for the main channels in my setup and 2 velodyne optimum 12 subs. I run the subs in line with my main speakers because I want to keep things in stereo all the way down for music. I prefer a stereo to mono bass configuration. I have experimented with things both ways.

I had been using a HSU high pass filter on the mains to remove bass below 80hz and the built in crossover on my subs as the low pass. This was essentially giving me a 12db per octave crossover between the speakers and subs. I recently upgraded to the HSU high end crossover. I did so because I thought the quality would be better than the subwoofers built in low pass filter and i wanted to move up to a 4th order 24db per octave crossover.

I am now having a problem with Audyssey XT32 reporting my left and right speakers are out of phase. I never had any issue with phase with the previous setup. I know the 4th order order Linkwitz-Riley crossover has a 360 degree phase difference between the high and low pass signal so the absolute phase should not be the same. However, I thought one of the benefits of this type of crossover was that the high and low pass would always appear in phase. I get the Audyssey out of phase warning whether the subs phase is 0 or 180. I need help understanding what is going on with Audyssey and whether or not I should be concerned.

Thanks
post #69216 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

You must be reading my mind I just posted on the 8801 thread about the manual EQ. I'm finding Audyssey flat a little bright and thin for music and was going try and manual EQ

.When Flat is too bright have you tried simply switching to the std Audyssey curve?   It has a nice roll-off in the high end that many folks find pleasing.

post #69217 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

.When Flat is too bright have you tried simply switching to the std Audyssey curve?   It has a nice roll-off in the high end that many folks find pleasing.



I haven't tried it too much for music but I'll give it a try. I like what DEQ does at lower volumes but when I turn things up it seems bright to me. I do love Audyssey for movies, it's just tough because of the way music is all over the place. No standards and it's almost like you have to EQ for each recording, plus now many rock CD's are part of the loudness wars and distort when turned up.
post #69218 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post

I started a thread asking about this in the subwoofer forum. I will also post my question here since it concerns audyssey. If it is relevant, my avr is a denon 4520.

I have mirage omd28 speakers for the main channels in my setup and 2 velodyne optimum 12 subs. I run the subs in line with my main speakers because I want to keep things in stereo all the way down for music. I prefer a stereo to mono bass configuration. I have experimented with things both ways.

I had been using a HSU high pass filter on the mains to remove bass below 80hz and the built in crossover on my subs as the low pass. This was essentially giving me a 12db per octave crossover between the speakers and subs. I recently upgraded to the HSU high end crossover. I did so because I thought the quality would be better than the subwoofers built in low pass filter and i wanted to move up to a 4th order 24db per octave crossover.

I am now having a problem with Audyssey XT32 reporting my left and right speakers are out of phase. I never had any issue with phase with the previous setup. I know the 4th order order Linkwitz-Riley crossover has a 360 degree phase difference between the high and low pass signal so the absolute phase should not be the same. However, I thought one of the benefits of this type of crossover was that the high and low pass would always appear in phase. I get the Audyssey out of phase warning whether the subs phase is 0 or 180. I need help understanding what is going on with Audyssey and whether or not I should be concerned.

Thanks

 

If you get the warning with the sub phase in both positions, I would leave it in the zero position, ignore the warning, proceed with the calibration, and see how it sounds.

 

HST, this is definitely a non-standard configuration.  First of all, "stereo bass" is IMO a myth.  Low frequencies are omni-directional, and AFAIK are recorded equally in both the left and right channels.  Second, unless you connect the subs to the AVR sub output channels, you are not allowing XT32 to properly set the delays for the subs.  Since it is highly likely that the subs are in different locations than the mains, and since you have only one delay per channel with your current setup, the delays are not going to be correct.  And finally, you want to be able to position the subs to maximize bass response, and the mains to optimize imaging, so the incorrect delay settings are going to defeat any sub position advantages.

 

Sorry to provide so much unsolicited advice, but I think if you tried connecting the subs in the more conventional way, running the Audyssey calibration again, and actually measuring your results, you would see a significant improvement.  It certainly can't hurt to experiment and, if you don't like it, return to your current configuration and ignore the phase warning.

post #69219 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Hey guys, not a 100% Audyssey question, but I respect the participants of this thread so much that I wanted to ask here. My question is regarding the manual EQ and bass management:

1) If for example I set the 63hz band for the L/R/SUR for -10db, what happens when I set a x-over point for say 100hz? Does my AVR trim the L/R/SUR -10db, and then send that trimmed signal to the sub, or does the AVR ingore the -10db trim since it's below the selected x-over point of 100hz?

2) Same as above, but this time I set a 60hz x-over for all channels. Now the x-over is right in the middle of the selected 63h band, so now what happens?

Thanks in advance guys, just trying to wrap my head around what happens. smile.gif

I don't know this for a fact, but my assumption is the bass management block comes after the EQ and other processing as a final step before heading to the volume control and DAC / amplifier stages. So in other words, whatever signal is supposed to be sent to the Front speakers (after all processing like EQ) is split by layering a HPF on the part that goes to the Front and an LPF on the part that goes to the subwoofer.
post #69220 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I haven't tried it too much for music but I'll give it a try. I like what DEQ does at lower volumes but when I turn things up it seems bright to me. I do love Audyssey for movies, it's just tough because of the way music is all over the place. No standards and it's almost like you have to EQ for each recording, plus now many rock CD's are part of the loudness wars and distort when turned up.


Irony is, I find a lot of rock/pop CDs sound pretty crappy on both of my "audiophile" setups...but sound pretty darn good with my upgraded Harmon Kardon/JBL car system.   :D 

 

In my HT, I always use Audyssey, almost always Std curve. 

 

You're correct, there's virtually no standards in music recording so it's a crap shoot but DEQ with RLO of 10 for lower-level listening works for most Stereo music for me.  If I'm going to listen at fairly loud level, DEQ is not having much effect (with RLO=10, at MV-10 it has no effect at all).  If ian occasional poor recording is too dull, and I want more detail, I might try Audyssey Flat.

 

For MC music I always off DEQ as it boosts surrounds too much for music content.

post #69221 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


Irony is, I find a lot of rock/pop CDs sound pretty crappy on both of my "audiophile" setups...but sound pretty darn good with my upgraded Harmon Kardon/JBL car system.   biggrin.gif  

In my HT, I always use Audyssey, almost always Std curve. 

You're correct, there's virtually no standards in music recording so it's a crap shoot but DEQ with RLO of 10 for lower-level listening works for most Stereo music for me.  If I'm going to listen at fairly loud level, DEQ is not having much effect (with RLO=10, at MV-10 it has no effect at all).  If ian occasional poor recording is too dull, and I want more detail, I might try Audyssey Flat.

For MC music I always off DEQ as it boosts surrounds too much for music content.



Yeah my favorite genre has been taken over by pro tools and that's one program I wish they never invented. I'm sticking with classic rock basically I just find the older recordings to be more to my liking. If you haven't seen the documentary Sound City it's a worth while movie to see all about when sound boards ruled and how digital music took over.
post #69222 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

If you get the warning with the sub phase in both positions, I would leave it in the zero position, ignore the warning, proceed with the calibration, and see how it sounds.

HST, this is definitely a non-standard configuration.  First of all, "stereo bass" is IMO a myth.  Low frequencies are omni-directional, and AFAIK are recorded equally in both the left and right channels.  Second, unless you connect the subs to the AVR sub output channels, you are not allowing XT32 to properly set the delays for the subs.  Since it is highly likely that the subs are in different locations than the mains, and since you have only one delay per channel with your current setup, the delays are not going to be correct.  And finally, you want to be able to position the subs to maximize bass response, and the mains to optimize imaging, so the incorrect delay settings are going to defeat any sub position advantages.

Sorry to provide so much unsolicited advice, but I think if you tried connecting the subs in the more conventional way, running the Audyssey calibration again, and actually measuring your results, you would see a significant improvement.  It certainly can't hurt to experiment and, if you don't like it, return to your current configuration and ignore the phase warning.

Thanks for the advice. I know it is a non traditional setup. I also know there is no real stereo bass below 50 to 60 hz.. However, I do think there is a noticeable difference between mono and decorrelated bass. I can definitely tell the difference in my setup. I have tried it both ways. A little of the slam is lost for movies but for music I think it makes things sound more natural. The best I can describe it is the bass seems more all around the room instead of restricted to a specific area.

The subs are just to the inside and flanking my speakers. They are not in the exact locations but close enough that I don't think delay is an issue. The purpose of these subs is to give me the 2 channel performance I am after. I have another sub(PSAXV30) that is used for the LFE and redirected bass from the other speakers in my setup when watching movies. The velodyne subs play the bass from their respective left and right channels only.

I have been running things exactly as you suggest. The phase of the subs is 0 and I have done a full 8 position calibration with audyssey. I'm just not understanding why audyssey says there is a phase issue now and it didn't with the other crossover slope.
post #69223 of 70884

My ceiling is slanted about 15- 20 degrees. Will Audyssey still work in my room?

Thanks

post #69224 of 70884
No, it will probablly cause your ceiling to catch on fire...


(yes, of course!)
post #69225 of 70884
Um, ...a side note for those who like to go to IMAX movies: beware of the flawed product, coz as Chris K. has told these cinemas are licensees of Audyssey MultEQ XT. Remember please: the leaves of trees will be there spoiling the audio Nirvana. Ush! smile.gif

Mo here

rolleyes.giftongue.gifbiggrin.gif
Edited by mogorf - 1/22/14 at 3:36pm
post #69226 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by eJeremye View Post

My ceiling is slanted about 15- 20 degrees. Will Audyssey still work in my room?
Thanks

Which one is your's? Take a look here.
post #69227 of 70884
Does anyone have any thoughts on why after I run Audyssey my distances are anywhere from 6" to 12" off? I know for the sub it's somewhat normal.
post #69228 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Does anyone have any thoughts on why after I run Audyssey my distances are anywhere from 6" to 12" off? I know for the sub it's somewhat normal.

Phase issues?
post #69229 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Phase issues?



I get a phase error for my mains but they are connected properly.
post #69230 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Does anyone have any thoughts on why after I run Audyssey my distances are anywhere from 6" to 12" off? I know for the sub it's somewhat normal.

 

So what you are really asking is whether your manual measurement process is more accurate than Audyssey's electronic measurement process?  What is your manual process, a tape measure?  Regardless, I would always accept what Audyssey calculates. JMO.

post #69231 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

So what you are really asking is whether your manual measurement process is more accurate than Audyssey's electronic measurement process?  What is your manual process, a tape measure?  Regardless, I would always accept what Audyssey calculates. JMO.



Yes, I measured with a tape measure and I was kinda surprised they were that far off. As long as it's normal I guess there's no need to worry.
post #69232 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Does anyone have any thoughts on why after I run Audyssey my distances are anywhere from 6" to 12" off? I know for the sub it's somewhat normal.

1. Your tape measure is not calibrated (not likely) tongue.gif
2. Everything is normal (likely) smile.gif
3. Audyssey sets delays (and then calculates distance) compared/relative to your sub. (likely again) smile.gif
4. Leave it "as is". Audyssey usually gets it right. (very most likely) cool.gif
5. Global warming (effect needs further considerations).

wink.gif
post #69233 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

1. Your tape measure is not calibrated (not likely) tongue.gif
2. Everything is normal (likely) smile.gif
3. Audyssey sets delays (and then calculates distance) compared/relative to your sub. (likely again) smile.gif
4. Leave it "as is". Audyssey usually gets it right. (very most likely) cool.gif
5. Global warming (effect needs further considerations).

wink.gif



Ok I'll stay with the Audyssey distances.

Yes my tape measures are calibrated, that's what I do for a living tongue.gif

No global warming here, it was -6 this morning.
post #69234 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

1. Your tape measure is not calibrated (not likely) tongue.gif
2. Everything is normal (likely) smile.gif
3. Audyssey sets delays (and then calculates distance) compared/relative to your sub. (likely again) smile.gif
4. Leave it "as is". Audyssey usually gets it right. (very most likely) cool.gif
5. Global warming (effect needs further considerations).

wink.gif

6. Delay associated with the DSP
7. Speaker group delay
post #69235 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

6. Delay associated with the DSP
7. Speaker group delay

Thanks. How about 5. in sunny Cali4nia?
post #69236 of 70884

Just in case anyone seriously thought that IMAX uses MultEQ XT as we know it in Audyssey HT systems, or if anyone had any such views after reading an old Audyssey PR release from 2010, this is what IMAX's Chief Technology Office had to say much more recently (in 2013):

 

So what about the tuning of the room?

'That’s the ‘Secret Sauce’. In particular, with our digital systems, we have developed a new tuning system called NEXOS. It utilises the Audyssey MultEQ tuning algorithms but modified for us by Audyssey. It has gone well beyond MultEQ. We have exclusive rights for applications in cinema. We worked extensively with Audyssey to modify performance specifically for theatrical venues for the sort of volumes we are talking about. In addition, it uses our very own customised EQ curve, that we have spent forty years developing and optimising.

 

'Coupled with that is our own technology, which is patent pending. We employ permanently-mounted microphones in the theatre at numerous key locations. 'They collect real-time acoustic information that reports back to our Image & Audio Enhancer audio engine. It’s a super-computer with the power of about a hundred desktop computers. It does multiple things with audio and visual – it monitors performance, it can alert us to speaker degradation that happens with age. If a driver were to fail, it is capable of recognising that and through our network operations centre, which is connected to our systems via the internet, it will give us an alert.' (My bolding)

 

Not that anyone would imagine, however, that there was all that much correlation between the sound system designed for a venue with an up to 100 feet tall screen and 700 seats and the typical home theatre, obviously ;)

 

Edited (on my own authority) to add, since XT32 was introduced in 2010, I also wonder if IMAX are now using XT32 as the basis for their "modified" version which goes "well beyond MultEQ"?  Just a thought.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 1/22/14 at 5:15pm
post #69237 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Just in case anyone seriously thought that IMAX uses MultEQ XT as we know it in Audyssey HT systems, or if anyone had any such views after reading an old Audyssey PR release from 2010, this is what IMAX's Chief Technology Office had to say much more recently (in 2013):

So what about the tuning of the room?



'That’s the ‘Secret Sauce’. In particular, with our digital systems, we have developed a new tuning system called NEXOS. It utilises the Audyssey MultEQ tuning algorithms but modified for us by Audyssey. It has gone well beyond MultEQ. We have exclusive rights for applications in cinema. We worked extensively with Audyssey to modify performance specifically for theatrical venues for the sort of volumes we are talking about. In addition, it uses our very own customised EQ curve, that we have spent forty years developing and optimising.



 



'Coupled with that is our own technology, which is patent pending. We employ permanently-mounted microphones in the theatre at numerous key locations. 'They collect real-time acoustic information that reports back to our Image & Audio Enhancer audio engine. It’s a super-computer with the power of about a hundred desktop computers. It does multiple things with audio and visual – it monitors performance, it can alert us to speaker degradation that happens with age. If a driver were to fail, it is capable of recognising that and through our network operations centre, which is connected to our systems via the internet, it will give us an alert.' (My bolding)




Not that anyone would imagine, however, that there was all that much correlation between the sound system designed for a venue with an up to 100 feet tall screen and 700 seats and the typical home theatre, obviously wink.gif

My dear Keith, Keep on googling or anti-googling for "stuff". The IMAX Audyssey (regardless of some specific fine-tuning efforts) still remains XT with its specific FIR filter resolution!

Stu is gonna enjoy our debate for sure! Just like me! smile.gif
post #69238 of 70884

If anyone is wondering what the 'flaw' in XT is (see recent posts above), more information can be found here:

 

 

a)1. Are there any significant differences between MultEQ XT32 and MultEQ XT/MultEQ/2EQ?

post #69239 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If anyone is wondering what the 'flaw' in XT is (see recent posts above), more information can be found here:


a)1. Are there any significant differences between MultEQ XT32 and MultEQ XT/MultEQ/2EQ?

^^ If this is a debate, I'm always up for a good one smile.gif.

But I don't think that the conclusion is in doubt, anymore than Windows superceding DOS was a subject for debate about superior OS. And whatever IMAX did or didn't do beyond Audyssey XT is an academic matter, because a several hundred seat theater and an HT room are fundamentally different things.

If anything, two things are clear to me: a) any version of Audyssey before XT32 by definition is an incomplete Audyssey product, or XT32 would not exist and b) there's no such thing as reference Audyssey, just an automated version of Chris K.'s preferences on a DSP chip, with marketing power behind them, and filtered through the decisions about bass management made by individual manufacturers.
Edited by sdrucker - 1/22/14 at 5:59pm
post #69240 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If anyone is wondering what the 'flaw' in XT is (see recent posts above), more information can be found here:


a)1. Are there any significant differences between MultEQ XT32 and MultEQ XT/MultEQ/2EQ?

Not many seem to be interested in mo info, and not many are wondering about a flaw whistel-blown by a single man's approach compiling/editing his lonely FAQ. Should be quite obvious, eh? smile.gifcool.giftongue.gifwink.gifbiggrin.gif

Next?
Edited by mogorf - 1/22/14 at 5:37pm
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