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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2321

post #69601 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

i'll just have to live with your confusion on this one. Have a nice weekend wink.gif

No, no, please, don't have a nice weekend till you can explain to me why I am wrong. I'll have no problem to stand corrected. smile.gif
post #69602 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

This kind of Audyssey + BFD approach is only important for those who dogmatically believe that the flatter the graph the better is sounds to the ears and explain to themselves and now to the public that graphs don't lie but speak for themselves. Enjoy preference land, nothing wrong with that! smile.gif

You basically just discounted the entire concept of Audyssey then if you aren't looking to smooth your frequency response. I would hate to be in a world less the inventions of those that ever dared to "Think outside the box." We might still be on horse and buggy....
post #69603 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

This kind of Audyssey + BFD approach is only important for those who dogmatically believe that the flatter the graph the better is sounds to the ears and explain to themselves and now to the public that graphs don't lie but speak for themselves. Enjoy preference land, nothing wrong with that! smile.gif

You basically just discounted the entire concept of Audyssey then if you aren't looking to smooth your frequency response. I would hate to be in a world less the inventions of those that ever dared to "Think outside the box." We might still be on horse and buggy....

 

"The “Audyssey” or “Audyssey Reference” target curve is designed to translate film mixing room conditions to the home listening room. This curve is flat to 4 kHz, has a slight roll-off from 4kHz - 10 kHz (-2dB @ 10 kHz), and another additional roll-off from 10 kHz - 20 kHz (-6dB @ 20 kHz). This curve should be used for listening to movies in most cases."

 

Above is quoted from Audyssey.  The observant reader will note that "This curve is flat to 4 kHz"The same observant reader will note that my BFD results are from 15Hz to 200Hz, which is where Audyssey say that the response should be flat.

 

So any suggestion that the response up to 4kHz should not be flat, or that it will be 'preference' will no doubt be widely disregarded by those who understand Audyssey's objectives.

 

By way of illustration of a flat response from 15Hz to 200Hz, my graph, below, should be useful.

 

 

This response could not be achieved with Audyssey alone unfortunately, even though Audyssey's objective is to deliver a flat response up to 4kHz. It took MultEQ XT32 + Pro and then the application of three PEQ filters to achieve Audyssey's stated objective. This shows, IMO, the value of some additional PEQ after running Audyssey.

 

Maybe not everyone understands what Audyssey's objectives in regard to a flat response up to 4kHz are, so hopefully this will assist.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 1/31/14 at 4:36pm
post #69604 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

If he wants a test disc with 11.2 channels then he needs 11.2 inputs, doesn't he? Where are they on "more recent" equipment?

As they say its useless checking your test tones on the AVR for 75db as that's not what Audyssey found after XT-32 EQ.

If you have an 11.2 setup including wide's and highs, what external source is there to ping all the channels to measure that they are the same level without using something like REW?
The only discs I know if are 5.1 discs.

If there is nothing on disc, what other ways can it be generated?
post #69605 of 70905

Aren't we confusing "inputs" and "Channels"?  The typical AVR today provides 7.1 discrete input channels (EXT IN).  However, source content can have 11.1 discrete channels (in theory).  The additional signals routed to the wide and height channels are encoded in the audio tracks and decoded by the AVR.  There are a handful of Blu-rays that provide discrete 11.1 Neo:X audio, for example.

 

However, the OP was asking (I believe) whether there is a test disk, containing test tones I suppose, for each of the 11.1 channels.  I spent a bit of time searching the internet, and I didn't find any 11.1 test disks.  If someone knows of one, it would be a great service if a link were provided.

post #69606 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

As they say its useless checking your test tones on the AVR for 75db as that's not what Audyssey found after XT-32 EQ.

If you have an 11.2 setup including wide's and highs, what external source is there to ping all the channels to measure that they are the same level without using something like REW?
The only discs I know if are 5.1 discs.

If there is nothing on disc, what other ways can it be generated?

Let's wait for mo949 to come back with the right answer. smile.gif
post #69607 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Aren't we confusing "inputs" and "Channels"?  The typical AVR today provides 7.1 discrete input channels (EXT IN).  However, source content can have 11.1 discrete channels (in theory).  The additional signals routed to the wide and height channels are encoded in the audio tracks and decoded by the AVR.  There are a handful of Blu-rays that provide discrete 11.1 Neo:X audio, for example.

However, the OP was asking (I believe) whether there is a test disk, containing test tones I suppose, for each of the 11.1 channels.  I spent a bit of time searching the internet, and I didn't find any 11.1 test disks.  If someone knows of one, it would be a great service if a link were provided.

That you Jerry you are on the right track with my question. If there is no disc available, maybe there is something that can be downloaded and saved?
post #69608 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post


As they say its useless checking your test tones on the AVR for 75db as that's not what Audyssey found after XT-32 EQ.

If you have an 11.2 setup including wide's and highs, what external source is there to ping all the channels to measure that they are the same level without using something like REW?
The only discs I know if are 5.1 discs.

If there is nothing on disc, what other ways can it be generated?

 

If all you want to do is make sure each channel is playing at 75dB, use the internal AVR test tones.  Sure, I know Audyssey is defeated when playing internal test tones, but does that make that big a difference to you?

 

I recall trying Multi-channel stereo in an attempt to measure the effect speakers--you might try that.

 

Edit:  if you use multi-channel stereo, you would need to unplug speaker cables to isolate sound to one channel.

post #69609 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

source content can have 11.1 discrete channels (in theory).  The additional signals routed to the wide and height channels are encoded in the audio tracks and decoded by the AVR. 

I don't think so, additional channels are matrixed by the AVR, nothing encoded into the audio tracks on any Blu disc above 7.1.

Quote:
There are a handful of Blu-rays that provide discrete 11.1 Neo:X audio, for example.

One example please. Here on Blu-Ray stats there is no such a disc. (Check the drop down menu for "audio")
post #69610 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

As they say its useless checking your test tones on the AVR for 75db as that's not what Audyssey found after XT-32 EQ.

If you have an 11.2 setup including wide's and highs, what external source is there to ping all the channels to measure that they are the same level without using something like REW?
The only discs I know if are 5.1 discs.

If there is nothing on disc, what other ways can it be generated?
The Audyssey doesn't do all 11 channels?
post #69611 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

There are a handful of Blu-rays that provide discrete 11.1 Neo:X audio, for example.

 

 

Dredd and The Expendables 2 are two discs that I have that have content specially mixed for Height channels (Wides too maybe - IDK as I only have Heights). On both discs there is a 'soundcheck' feature in the menus which sends content to each channel in turn. Although the 11.1 is not actually discretely authored, the content has been designed especially for the additional channels and it would be hard to see how a discrete mix could do better: there is absolutely no bleed from the Height channels to any other channel.

post #69612 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post

The Audyssey doesn't do all 11 channels?

What????
post #69613 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

As they say its useless checking your test tones on the AVR for 75db as that's not what Audyssey found after XT-32 EQ.

If you have an 11.2 setup including wide's and highs, what external source is there to ping all the channels to measure that they are the same level without using something like REW?
The only discs I know if are 5.1 discs.

If there is nothing on disc, what other ways can it be generated?
The Audyssey doesn't do all 11 channels?

You're confused, he's looking for an EXTERNAL test disc with discretely authored 11.1 tones which I don't think exists. The closest you could come would be the 11ch DTS-Neo:X Blu-rays noted above which have the sound check.

Jerry is 100% correct that some (like mo?) appear to be conflating INPUTS with CHANNELS (which are output), and Feri is 100% correct that the .2 part is nonsense, there is only one subwoofer channel regardless of the marketing branding of "11.2 receiver" just because it has two subwoofer outputs. I don't know of ANY receiver that has more than 7.1 channel external analog inputs, but that's sort of irrelevant as I imagine the test tones would (theoretically) be delivered digitally via an HDMI connection from an external source.

But, all that said, I think this is much ado about nothing. Use the internal test tones. Any slight differences due to Audyssey EQ are pretty overblown and I wouldn't worry about acquiring an external test disc just because of that.
post #69614 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post


The Audyssey doesn't do all 11 channels?

 

Could you clarify what you are asking?

post #69615 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
 
But, all that said, I think this is much ado about nothing. Use the internal test tones. Any slight differences due to Audyssey EQ are pretty overblown and I wouldn't worry about acquiring an external test disc just because of that.

 

Agreed. Unless Audyssey has had to remove a lot of absolutely huge peaks, which is unlikely in Murray's case, the internal test tones will be accurate enough. 

post #69616 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

But, all that said, I think this is much ado about nothing. Use the internal test tones. Any slight differences due to Audyssey EQ are pretty overblown and I wouldn't worry about acquiring an external test disc just because of that.

Watch out for Keith bp, he's gonna jump on you for that statement. LOL
post #69617 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Agreed. Unless Audyssey has had to remove a lot of absolutely huge peaks, which is unlikely in Murray's case, the internal test tones will be accurate enough. 

Very interesting Keith, I always thought it was a no no!
post #69618 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Agreed. Unless Audyssey has had to remove a lot of absolutely huge peaks, which is unlikely in Murray's case, the internal test tones will be accurate enough. 

Did I say Keith is gonna jump? LOL Talking' about "absolut huge peaks" in the range of the test tones residing from 500 Hz to 2 kHz, eh? I dunno what kinda odd room it has to be to produce "absolute huge peaks". But that's just me. eek.giftongue.gifcool.gif
post #69619 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Very interesting Keith, I always thought it was a no no!

What is a no no? To use the internal test tones?
post #69620 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Agreed. Unless Audyssey has had to remove a lot of absolutely huge peaks, which is unlikely in Murray's case, the internal test tones will be accurate enough. 

Very interesting Keith, I always thought it was a no no!

 

Theoretically it is because the test tones don't reflect the correction Audyssey has made, so in theory at least, they may not be accurate. But if all you want to do is to get a rough handle on the levels, it will be fine.

 

Like I say, I doubt you have huge peaks that have had to be pulled down anyway - Mark Seaton reported a peak of 20dB in the test tone range for example, and removing that could affect the SPL. But your room is too good for that from what I have seen of it.

post #69621 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

What????

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Could you clarify what you are asking?
I was asking why Audyssey couldn't do all 11 like I thought it did. batpig confirmed what I had thought and explained why I was confused about the questions above my post.
post #69622 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Theoretically it is because the test tones don't reflect the correction Audyssey has made

To be exact on this issue it has been explained by Chris K. that the test tone block in the AVRs are always after the Audyssey block, therefore even though the test tones are engaged and the Audyssey display will still be "On", those tones are not filtered by Audyssey. AVR makers have been bombarded by Audyssey not to do it that way, ...well, ...maybe one day (as Chris sighed).
post #69623 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

The additional signals routed to the wide and height channels are encoded in the audio tracks and decoded by the AVR.  There are a handful of Blu-rays that provide discrete 11.1 Neo:X audio, for example.
There are 3 Blu-rays (Dredd, Expendables 2, Step Up: Revolution) that have wide and height channels matrixed into the mix (Neo:X is matrix encoding/decoding, not discrete).
post #69624 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

There are 3 Blu-rays (Dredd, Expendables 2, Step Up: Revolution) that have wide and height channels matrixed into the mix (Neo:X is matrix encoding/decoding, not discrete).

Thanks for correcting the terminology, Sanjay. Right thought, wrong words.
post #69625 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

As they say its useless checking your test tones on the AVR for 75db as that's not what Audyssey found after XT-32 EQ.

If you have an 11.2 setup including wide's and highs, what external source is there to ping all the channels to measure that they are the same level without using something like REW?
The only discs I know if are 5.1 discs.

If there is nothing on disc, what other ways can it be generated?
The Audyssey doesn't do all 11 channels?

You're confused, he's looking for an EXTERNAL test disc with discretely authored 11.1 tones which I don't think exists. The closest you could come would be the 11ch DTS-Neo:X Blu-rays noted above which have the sound check.

Jerry is 100% correct that some (like mo?) appear to be conflating INPUTS with CHANNELS (which are output), and Feri is 100% correct that the .2 part is nonsense, there is only one subwoofer channel regardless of the marketing branding of "11.2 receiver" just because it has two subwoofer outputs. I don't know of ANY receiver that has more than 7.1 channel external analog inputs, but that's sort of irrelevant as I imagine the test tones would (theoretically) be delivered digitally via an HDMI connection from an external source.

But, all that said, I think this is much ado about nothing. Use the internal test tones. Any slight differences due to Audyssey EQ are pretty overblown and I wouldn't worry about acquiring an external test disc just because of that.

He can still use the external test disc and just turn off power to one of his subs when it pings the LFE channel if he wants to split that hair. Then just duplicate with other sub.
post #69626 of 70905
There's no point in checking post calibration levels with each sub separately. They are calibrated as a summed unit and should be measured as such (leaving aside those who intentionally modify levels to preserve gain marching). And of course the primary point is that they reproduce a single channel of content, the two subs are sent an identical signal of output and are not fed by two different channels of input.
post #69627 of 70905
Lol. So he can and in your opinion there's no point. There you have it.
post #69628 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Did I say Keith is gonna jump? LOL Talking' about "absolut huge peaks" in the range of the test tones residing from 500 Hz to 2 kHz, eh? I dunno what kinda odd room it has to be to produce "absolute huge peaks". But that's just me. eek.giftongue.gifcool.gif

In my opinion, your room has large enough peaks/dips still after Audyssey that I wouldn't trust your AVR's internal test tones to be accurate. I've seen your sweeps, and unless you are within +/- 2 or 3 dB across the band, I would rather utilize an external disc of some sort to confirm channel levels. For your mains I would take this as the utmost importance.

All that considered, as others have stated, when it comes to heights and wides, you can get pretty close. Now its back to box building fellers. have a wonderful weekend biggrin.gif
post #69629 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
 
In my opinion, your room has large enough peaks/dips still after Audyssey that I wouldn't trust your AVR's internal test tones to be accurate. I've seen your sweeps, and unless you are within +/- 2 or 3 dB across the band, I would rather utilize an external disc of some sort to confirm channel levels. For your mains I would take this as the utmost importance.

 

Agreed. My own post-Audyssey sweeps aren't too bad (although there is always room for improvement IMO). If I had some ancient AVR with an equally ancient implementation of Audyssey, personally, to avoid having to throw it into the trash, I'd invest in a MiniDSP and apply some PEQ to the post-Audyssey result to see if I could improve on it. If I could afford it, I'd also upgrade to an XT32 unit and use the MiniDSP with that too. I think I have shown that Audyssey's results can be improved with my own recent experiments with the BFD. I have never seen (here) a better example of what Audyssey is aiming to achieve - a flat response in the critical bass region - than that which I currently have. But it took more than XT32/Pro alone to achieve it. Given the lesser degree of correction in the LF range of the 'lesser' versions of Audyssey, I'd consider it even more essential to try to flatten that bass response with additional weaponry. 

 

I am now considering investigating the MiniDSP 10x10 to see if I can make a similar Audyssey-beating improvement across the full frequency range as I have made in the bass region. XT32 is very good for sure - but everything can be improved on, or, as you said recently, we'd still all be driving around in horse-drawn buggies. I definitely do not want the AV equivalent of a horse and cart! :)

 

EDITED to make my meaning more clear.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 2/1/14 at 4:02am
post #69630 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Agreed. My own post-Audyssey sweeps aren't too bad (although there is always room for improvement IMO). If I had some ancient AVR with an equally ancient implementation of Audyssey, personally, I'd throw it in the trash and upgrade to a modern unit with XT32.

This is the point from whereon it is worthless for me to read such posts. Not helpful, not cooperative, and not up to the spirit expected in general. IMHO. Full stop.
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