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Mitsubishi HC5000 via eBay ... Buyer Beware - Page 5  

post #121 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSloth View Post

You do everyone a disservice calling this story/issue "insane." It seems perfectly sane to me.

- How is a tracking number showing proof of delivery, proof of signature by S Williams and the theory of DHL employee forging her signature and stealing the projector anyway considered Sane or Normal to you? This happens often?


That's not what you told Susan. YOU made this situation worse than it had to be.



Your rash emails were the reaction of a very poor business person with terrible customer service. You deserve negative feedback for that. Further, you keep calling Susan's action irrational, and they weren't. They were perfectly rational responses to your terrible handling of the situation.



IF YOU HAD SENT THE TRACKING NUMBER, SHE WOULD HAVE KNOWN YOU SHIPPED THE PROJECTOR. She wouldn't have had to wait two weeks before contacting you to ask "what's up." TERRIBLE.

SHE DID receive email confirmation that the projector was going to arrive on 1/12 from us.



The phrase "insurance claim" doesn't mean what you think it does. Telling DHL that your projector did not arrive is not an "insurance claim." Learn what words mean before you use them.

We DID file the claim, we did not just say the words Insurance claim - are you serious here. Yes, please read before you respond..

Right, instead you jumped to the conclusion that your customer was a liar and a thief, and you treated her like dirt, and when you were proved to be wrong about that, you now refuse to back down, and you're STILL making accusations. What a nice guy you are.

We did not jump to any conclusions. We initially stated to her that we WOULD contact DHL and we did, We also DID file or how else would we DHL be wraping this up by Tuesday if we had not filed? We did not call her a Liar about non delivery, we pointed out LIES throughout her email chain and this was WELL after her filing the dispute against us, not before as you are wrongly assuming here.

I wouldn't have given you 30 minutes after you called me a liar. I'd have been on the phone to the credit card company the MINUTE that happened. You should be ashamed, and yet you still haven't learned ONE THING from this experience.

Mis-quote again. We never stated YOU ARE A LIAR when it came to non delivery. We never accused her of fraud until after she Filed the initial claim with DHL, filed her paypal dispute and left us Negative feedback and thoughout the email chain to Mike Thompson she DID LIE numerously as I have proven several times. Did ALL of the facts point to BUYER FRAUD, YES. And to clear up the feedback. SHE LEFT US NEGATIVE FIRST and as stated, all primary facts pointed to Buyer Fraud.
post #122 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbawilly View Post

And, this was a somewhat common business matter that elevated to a dispute partly because of the unprofessional way you reacted. Stuff goes wrong in business, particularly when shipping is involved, and shipping is always involved unless you do business exclusively through a store-front. Even then it can be a problem for the business operator, though it may not directly affect the consumer. In my business if I didn't have to deal with shipping problems, I would have virtually no problems to deal with. If I responded to my shipping problems the way that you did (and shipping is my problem), then I wouldn't have a business to worry about.

Exactly. We all make mistakes in business and in life. The true mark of a man is that he's willing to stand up and say, "I was wrong. I'm sorry. I'll work with you to make things right." Instead, all we seem to get from SBarger is a bunch of rhetoric and self-serving arguments about what is sane or insane, reasonable or unreasonable, and how everything he's ever done in his entire life is right. This is truly a disgrace and every eBay buyer's worst nightmare.
post #123 of 246
Quote:


I do feel a little bad about that, because Mr. Barger is correct, I did say I'd give him a month since my payment date (1/8/07). I will note that I only went back on that AFTER Mr. Barger emailed me saying it was "impossible" to resolve this by 2/8 and that for me to ask him to do so was "extortion." To me, that signaled quite clearly that he had no intention of making this right, so waiting another week seemed both pointless and scary on my part.

Don't feel bad about that at all. Much like PapaSloth so skillfully replied, I wouldn't have given him another minute after he started disparaging me. I'd have programmed my CC company into speed dial right away, and I'd be calling them daily until I saw the balance back in my account.

Don't lose another minute's sleep over this bad, bad deal. Clearly, one doesn't have to be a professional to hang out a shingle on eBay.

Thanks for posting your experience. I'm in the market for a projector, and I've seen his auctions on eBay. You can rest easy knowing that you'll get your money back reasonably soon, and that you've saved others from experiencing the same nightmare.
post #124 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarger View Post

Mis-quote again. We never stated YOU ARE A LIAR when it came to non delivery.

I flat out don't believe you. I think you checked the DHL tracking, saw that it showed as delivered, called DHL and they told you it was probably buyer fraud, and you IMMEDIATELY contacted Susan and told her she was a thief and a liar. I'm basing this both on the emails that you and Susan have posted in this thread and also on you general demeanor here.

If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then it's a duck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarger View Post

We never accused her of fraud until after she Filed the initial claim with DHL,

Really, you need to use the dictionary and look up the word "claim." Susan CANNOT file a claim with DHL because Susan IS NOT THE SHIPPER. Only THE SHIPPER can file a claim with DHL, as you've been told REPEATEDLY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarger View Post

filed her paypal dispute and left us Negative feedback and thoughout the email chain to Mike Thompson she DID LIE numerously as I have proven several times.

I have read this entire thread, and the only "lie" I've seen from Susan is when she changed her mind about giving you additional time to resolve the situation after you acused her of fraud and extortion. You have proven nothing, except that you are an extremely unpleasant person to deal with if anything goes wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarger View Post

Did ALL of the facts point to BUYER FRAUD, YES.

You can either work WITH your buyer, and try to resolve the situation, or you can try to BLAME the buyer, and drag your feet. You chose to do the latter, and that's why you are a bad businessman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarger View Post

And to clear up the feedback. SHE LEFT US NEGATIVE FIRST and as stated, all primary facts pointed to Buyer Fraud.

You deserved the bad feedback 100%, and you still insist on believing you were wronged because you refuse to take any responsibility for you part in this disaster. Bad show. This is a business for you, from which you expect to earn a livelihood. Susan was just looking to do something fun and was excited about a new purchase. She got WAY MORE than she bargained for on this transaction, and it's YOUR fault. Take responsibilty, be a man, and appologize.
post #125 of 246
Run from this seller as fast as you can!

Goodnight all!
post #126 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbawilly View Post

I feel somewhat parental responding to the question, but how about all of the name calling and accusations? It makes this deal sound like a school yard argument instead of a business matter.

And, this was a somewhat common business matter that elevated to a dispute partly because of the unprofessional way you reacted. Stuff goes wrong in business, particularly when shipping is involved, and shipping is always involved unless you do business exclusively through a store-front. Even then it can be a problem for the business operator, though it may not directly affect the consumer. In my business if I didn't have to deal with shipping problems, I would have virtually no problems to deal with. If I responded to my shipping problems the way that you did (and shipping is my problem), then I wouldn't have a business to worry about.

Unfortunately, this has been the eBay nightmare that everyone hopes they never have to experience. M. Night Shamylan couldn't have written it better.


Not sure where the "name calling" is that you speak of?? What Susan seems to have falsely convinced everyone of is that we were unwilling to assist. Susan contacted us on 1/26

From: SMW Auction [mailto:smwauction@xxxxx]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 12:19 AM
To: sbarger@xxxxx
Subject: Re: Message from eBay Member Regarding Item #xxxxx


I never received the product so I certainly didn't sign for it. Please show me the signature.

Sincerely,
Susan Williams

We initiated the claim.. All was fine until Susan forwarded us the email from DHL MIKE that he agreed that it was not delivered, that he stated Susan filed the initial claim with DHL, and just 1 hour later, she filed a paypal claim. Go back to my original response and read it for yourself. We told her we will and we did contact DHL and we did Initiate the claim. The only thing we claimed she lied about and did, is that WE CALLED HER A LIAR in regards to her claim of non delivery, never happened, we did point out her lies proven in my posts. THAT WE SAID EVEN IF WE WON WE WOULD NOT REFUND HER PAYMENT, never happened, never stated by us, definition a lie. THAT IF SHE DID NOT STOP EMAILING US THAT WE WOULD CALL THE POLICE. This one is ludicris, we never said it.

Point being we know there are issues in business, we have them daily and handle them daily. Yes, in the last 6 years, 5 other projectors were lost in transit and those customers working with us, not against us, ALL received replacement projectors within 2 weeks of contacting us that they did not receive their projectors. Not as susan once again twisted this into" You lost 5 projectors, run for the hills" SAME EXACT SITUATION HERE> Susan WILL BE REFUNDED WITHIN ACTUALLY 10 DAYS FROM THE DATE SHE INITIALLY STATED SHE DID NOT RECEIVE THE PROJECTOR. HOW IS THAT A NIGHTMARE, HOW DOES THAT CONSITITUE RUN FOR THE HILLS? SHE WILL HAVE LOST NOTHING.

WE DID File Susan claim and we were told by DHL FL to not expect much, Looks Like Buyer fraud. That coupled with tracking proof of delivery/signature, instant Paypal dispute, MIKE stating that SHE filed the insurance claim, etc, etc as stated over and over again. You guys are saying that I should have ignored ALL of those facts and simply shipped out another projector or given her a refund??

We were constantly bombarded by threats, deadlines of resolution and then a prompt paypal charge back that froze her payment to us. She and only she Jumped the gun, did not give us any time to confirm any of her story with DHL and basically refused to give DHL any time to pay the claim before she forcably extracted it from us.
post #127 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSloth View Post

Exactly. We all make mistakes in business and in life. The true mark of a man is that he's willing to stand up and say, "I was wrong. I'm sorry. I'll work with you to make things right." Instead, all we seem to get from SBarger is a bunch of rhetoric and self-serving arguments about what is sane or insane, reasonable or unreasonable, and how everything he's ever done in his entire life is right. This is truly a disgrace and every eBay buyer's worst nightmare.


Again Susan is getting refunded promptly and would have been refunded promptly regardless had she initiated this email chain or not. I never stated anywhere that everything I have ever done is right. Where did you come up with that? But in this case, DHL was the case of this very strange, very insane situation that is not all all typical and even MIKE with DHL stated that he has never seen a case like this in 28yrs of service. So I dont know how you feel that this situation is at all normal or Sane as you stated. Also, WE DID the right thing. We filed with DHL as we initially stated to SUSAN we would. But of course when DHL stated buyers fraud and all the facts that I have shown you all pointed to Buyer Fraud, we of course thought this was buyer fraud. What other proof did we have to go by? Since Susan will get her money refunded and since we do have a proven record of 600+ projector sales at 100% positive less Susans negative. That we have a proven honest business with 99.9999% positive feedback record, how is this in any way viewed as Ebay buyers worst nightmare? She contacted us 1 week ago and will have a refund in less than 10 days. How is that by any means a Nightmare? Now for us as a seller, YES, this buyer is EVERY SELLERS worst nightmare as factually proven here..
post #128 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarger View Post

Not sure where the "name calling" is that you speak of?? What Susan seems to have falsely convinced everyone of is that we were unwilling to assist. Susan contacted us on 1/26

From: SMW Auction [mailto:smwauction@xxxxx]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 12:19 AM
To: sbarger@xxxxx
Subject: Re: Message from eBay Member Regarding Item #xxxxx


I never received the product so I certainly didn't sign for it. Please show me the signature.

Sincerely,
Susan Williams

We initiated the claim.. All was fine until Susan forwarded us the email from DHL MIKE that he agreed that it was not delivered, that he stated Susan filed the initial claim with DHL, and just 1 hour later, she filed a paypal claim. Go back to my original response and read it for yourself. We told her we will and we did contact DHL and we did Initiate the claim. The only thing we claimed she lied about and did, is that WE CALLED HER A LIAR in regards to her claim of non delivery, never happened, we did point out her lies proven in my posts. THAT WE SAID EVEN IF WE WON WE WOULD NOT REFUND HER PAYMENT, never happened, never stated by us, definition a lie. THAT IF SHE DID NOT STOP EMAILING US THAT WE WOULD CALL THE POLICE. This one is ludicris, we never said it.

Point being we know there are issues in business, we have them daily and handle them daily. Yes, in the last 6 years, 5 other projectors were lost in transit and those customers working with us, not against us, ALL received replacement projectors within 2 weeks of contacting us that they did not receive their projectors. Not as susan once again twisted this into" You lost 5 projectors, run for the hills" SAME EXACT SITUATION HERE> Susan WILL BE REFUNDED WITHIN ACTUALLY 10 DAYS FROM THE DATE SHE INITIALLY STATED SHE DID NOT RECEIVE THE PROJECTOR. HOW IS THAT A NIGHTMARE, HOW DOES THAT CONSITITUE RUN FOR THE HILLS? SHE WILL HAVE LOST NOTHING.

WE DID File Susan claim and we were told by DHL FL to not expect much, Looks Like Buyer fraud. That coupled with tracking proof of delivery/signature, instant Paypal dispute, MIKE stating that SHE filed the insurance claim, etc, etc as stated over and over again. You guys are saying that I should have ignored ALL of those facts and simply shipped out another projector or given her a refund??

We were constantly bombarded by threats, deadlines of resolution and then a prompt paypal charge back that froze her payment to us. She and only she Jumped the gun, did not give us any time to confirm any of her story with DHL and basically refused to give DHL any time to pay the claim before she forcably extracted it from us.

If you spent half as much time trying to work with Susan that you're now wasting trying to prove how everyone in the world is wrong but you, none of this sorry mess would ever have happened. OF COURSE DHL is going to say the projector was delivered, that's why you BELIEVE YOUR CUSTOMER and PRESSURE THEM TO INVESTIGATE. And as a good business man, it's YOUR responsibility to keep Susan in the loop so that she feels like she's being taken care of.

I know what REALLY happened here. You're doing over 10 deals a DAY on eBay, and you didn't have TIME to really take care of this situation, so you dropped the ball and blew it off. You made Susan feel like you didn't have time to help her or follow up, and she got scared that she was out $3000. And instead of fixing that, you start getting nasty, and finger pointing, and accusing her of fraud, theft, extortion, lying, and on and on. YOU caused this situation to escalate, because you are TOO BUSY. You need to SELL LESS and spend more time helping your customers.
post #129 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarger View Post

Again Susan is getting refunded promptly and would have been refunded promptly regardless had she initiated this email chain or not. I never stated anywhere that everything I have ever done is right. Where did you come up with that? But in this case, DHL was the case of this very strange, very insane situation that is not all all typical and even MIKE with DHL stated that he has never seen a case like this in 28yrs of service. So I dont know how you feel that this situation is at all normal or Sane as you stated. Also, WE DID the right thing. We filed with DHL as we initially stated to SUSAN we would. But of course when DHL stated buyers fraud and all the facts that I have shown you all pointed to Buyer Fraud, we of course thought this was buyer fraud. What other proof did we have to go by? Since Susan will get her money refunded and since we do have a proven record of 600+ projector sales at 100% positive less Susans negative. That we have a proven honest business with 99.9999% positive feedback record, how is this in any way viewed as Ebay buyers worst nightmare? She contacted us 1 week ago and will have a refund in less than 10 days. How is that by any means a Nightmare? Now for us as a seller, YES, this buyer is EVERY SELLERS worst nightmare as factually proven here..

Are you going to refund her all the time she wasted dealing with you? How about refunding her the emotional trauma of being called a liar and a thief? There are some things that are worse than losing $3000 in a bad transaction, and having to deal with you for any length of time is one of them.

I've only been dealing with you for an hour and I'm already sick of you. If I had to do it for two weeks, I'd probably shoot myself. Can I get a refund for the bullets?
post #130 of 246
I believe this is why lawyers sometimes advise clients not to talk to the press and not to take the witness stand. By continuing to post the seller has done more damage to his reputation than Susan could have ever hoped to do have done. If there was ever an iota of doubt in my or anyone else's mind which party was at fault here, it's been erased.
post #131 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSloth View Post

I flat out don't believe you. I think you checked the DHL tracking, saw that it showed as delivered, called DHL and they told you it was probably buyer fraud, and you IMMEDIATELY contacted Susan and told her she was a thief and a liar. I'm basing this both on the emails that you and Susan have posted in this thread and also on you general demeanor here.

If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then it's a duck.

Again, I will swear on the lives of my children, wife, entire family and to be instanly struck down by the lord up above that that is completely inaccurate. We kindly pointed out delivery via tracking with signature and stated to Susans rash remark, where is my projector, we told her Tracking shows delivery. She said I did not get it. We stated to please contact your DHL delivery guy to see what they say, she forwarded me Mikes email that he thinks it may have not been delivered and not even one hour after she forwarded that email to me, she filed a paypal dispute with Paypal. AFTER she filed the paypal dispute insisting that I was somehow at fault, that I need to ship her another projector or refund her immediately OR ELSE, we contacted DHL to file the insurance claim. That Is when DHL told us that this may be buyer fraud. So basically Im supposed to take the word of Mike with DHL that had a very unlikely story that his DHL employee forged her signature and stole her projector but marked it as delivered, Yet, I'm not supposed to take the word of the DHL manager in FL that I spoke to that stated , he sees this all the time, we will go ahead and initiate the claim for you, but dont expect much, this looks to be buyer fraud. I should have just ignored him and taken the word of MIKE???


Really, you need to use the dictionary and look up the word "claim." Susan CANNOT file a claim with DHL because Susan IS NOT THE SHIPPER. Only THE SHIPPER can file a claim with DHL, as you've been told REPEATEDLY.

FALSE, The reciepient CAN FILE AN INSURANCE CLAIM, it is just Customarily filed by the Shipper. Since MIKE Stated that Susan ALREADY INITIATED THE CLAIM. Need I send his email again, it IS in my post, I replied that I would have no problem signing any insurance papers I get regarding Susans reimbursement from DHL.

I have read this entire thread, and the only "lie" I've seen from Susan is when she changed her mind about giving you additional time to resolve the situation after you acused her of fraud and extortion. You have proven nothing, except that you are an extremely unpleasant person to deal with if anything goes wrong.

FALSE, there are at least 5 lies that I have pointed out by Susan. Have her send you the emails where I called her a LIAR, where I STATED THAT I WOULD CALL THE POLICE IF SHE DID NOT STOP EMAILING ME. THAT I STATED THAT IF I WIN THE PALPAL CLAIM THAT I WOULD NOT PAY HER ANYTHING. Think about that. Do you really think I would end my business by not paying her funds if found by DHL to be rightfully hers?

You can either work WITH your buyer, and try to resolve the situation, or you can try to BLAME the buyer, and drag your feet. You chose to do the latter, and that's why you are a bad businessman.

WE did work with the buyer or the claim would not already be nearly finalized. We did not drag our feet, we acted promptly and this will be resolved in less than 10 days since her initial claim of Non Delivery. So how did we choose the latter and how are be a bad businessman when all facts prove the opposite?

You deserved the bad feedback 100%, and you still insist on believing you were wronged because you refuse to take any responsibility for you part in this disaster. Bad show. This is a business for you, from which you expect to earn a livelihood. Susan was just looking to do something fun and was excited about a new purchase. She got WAY MORE than she bargained for on this transaction, and it's YOUR fault. Take responsibilty, be a man, and appologize.

We did take responsibility and filed the claim, despite having our funds frozen, DHLs statement of Buyer Fraud and being completely defamed in a public forum. We and Susan stated DHL is to blame for this entire issue, yet you still say this is my Fault???
post #132 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSloth View Post

Are you going to refund her all the time she wasted dealing with you? How about refunding her the emotional trauma of being called a liar and a thief? There are some things that are worse than losing $3000 in a bad transaction, and having to deal with you for any length of time is one of them.

I've only been dealing with you for an hour and I'm already sick of you. If I had to do it for two weeks, I'd probably shoot myself. Can I get a refund for the bullets?


At this point all I can say is that I cannot believe these reactions. I feel as though I'm in the twilight zone. We did nothing wrong, We shipped her projector, we emailed her on 1/10 stating that it would arrive by 1/12. She initially contated us 2 weeks later on 1/26 that she did not receive. We sent an email that tracking shows she did, with her signature, we receive an email from Mike that says she didn't, says she filed the insurance claim with him yet we had our funds frozen 1 hr later. We Did file the claim, it will be paid off less than 10 days after she stated non delivery. We recieved lost sales, lost time, lost money, distress, complete defamation of character and constant questions of why after we had just lost 3k (frozen funds) did we not loose another 3k and ship her a replacement or refund her before the DHL review board investigates. And that we are totally and completely to blame here? This is absolutely unbelieveable.
post #133 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSloth View Post

If you spent half as much time trying to work with Susan that you're now wasting trying to prove how everyone in the world is wrong but you, none of this sorry mess would ever have happened. OF COURSE DHL is going to say the projector was delivered, that's why you BELIEVE YOUR CUSTOMER and PRESSURE THEM TO INVESTIGATE. And as a good business man, it's YOUR responsibility to keep Susan in the loop so that she feels like she's being taken care of.

I know what REALLY happened here. You're doing over 10 deals a DAY on eBay, and you didn't have TIME to really take care of this situation, so you dropped the ball and blew it off. You made Susan feel like you didn't have time to help her or follow up, and she got scared that she was out $3000. And instead of fixing that, you start getting nasty, and finger pointing, and accusing her of fraud, theft, extortion, lying, and on and on. YOU caused this situation to escalate, because you are TOO BUSY. You need to SELL LESS and spend more time helping your customers.


False, false, false and false. What really happened here is exactly what I said happened here, nothing more, nothing less, nothing to read into. The facts are the facts - WE DID File Susans claim and we were told by DHL FL to not expect much, Looks Like Buyer fraud. That coupled with tracking proof of delivery/signature, instant Paypal dispute, MIKE stating that SHE filed the insurance claim, etc, etc as stated over and over again. You guys are saying that I should have ignored ALL of those facts and simply shipped out another projector or given her a refund?? I did the proper thing here and let DHL investigate and come up with the correct decision to be closed on Tuesday. When Susan, and only Susan, started to get demanding and nasty with threats of her defamation, with threats of refund me by 2/8 or ELSE, AFTER filing a dispute that froze our funds and then I discover these exagerations of the truth in this forum, that is when the finger pointing began as it further enforced the buyer fraud theory stated by DHL.
post #134 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarger View Post

We did take responsibility and filed the claim, despite having our funds frozen, DHLs statement of Buyer Fraud and being completely defamed in a public forum. We and Susan stated DHL is to blame for this entire issue, yet you still say this is my Fault???

Yes, I still say this is your fault.

I also say you should be a man and appologize.
post #135 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarger View Post

False, false, false and false. What really happened here is exactly what I said happened here, nothing more, nothing less, nothing to read into. The facts are the facts - WE DID File Susans claim and we were told by DHL FL to not expect much, Looks Like Buyer fraud. That coupled with tracking proof of delivery/signature, instant Paypal dispute, MIKE stating that SHE filed the insurance claim, etc, etc as stated over and over again. You guys are saying that I should have ignored ALL of those facts and simply shipped out another projector or given her a refund?? I did the proper thing here and let DHL investigate and come up with the correct decision to be closed on Tuesday. When Susan, and only Susan, started to get demanding and nasty with threats of her defamation, with threats of refund me by 2/8 or ELSE, AFTER filing a dispute that froze our funds and then I discover these exagerations of the truth in this forum, that is when the finger pointing began as it further enforced the buyer fraud theory stated by DHL.

You need to go to the blackboard and write, "The customer is always right" 1000 times. Then you need to figure out why siding with your customer even if DHL tells you it's "probably buyer fraud" is the right thing to do. Or else you should find a business that doesn't require having customers.
post #136 of 246
Mr. Barger,

I am thinking that you are rightly concerned over the potential loss of business that could arise from what has happenned here. Let me help put you at ease on somethings so that you wont be so defensive so that you might try to see things as QQQ suggested several several posts ago.

I am pretty certain that DHL is responsible for the missing delivery and a lot of the misunderstanding between you and the buyer. I am pretty certain everyone here does not believe that you intended to steal from the buyer, before you had the PJ shipped, after it was shipped, and once you found out that there was a chance that there could be some legitamacy to her claim.

If I was buying from you, I would feel very confident that your 99.999% feedback was legitamate and even now, after all of this posting, would attribute this negative feedback that both you and the buyer have given each other to DHL.

Paraphrasing here, but not only did DHL tell you that it was likely buyer fraud to begin with but they also told her that you were NOT communicating. If I was either of you, I would have had serious aggravation and distrust of the other from the GETGO.

At this point, I dont think you have to keep defending your actions so feverishly to people who might just be trying to antagonize you. I would recommend, as QQQ suggested some time ago, to calm down a little bit and understand that at this point it doesnt appear that the buyer IS TRYING TO SCREW YOU WITH A BS CLAIM.

Whatever has happenned regarding your reputation PARTLY, maybe a big part, because of DHL, can still be mostly repaired.

Nothing wrong with making the following statement:


<<
I am sorry for any fault in the escalation of hostilities. It was my perception at the onset, because of the DHL tracking information and what I was told by DHL, that this was likely buyer fraud. It seems like now that I may have been mistaken and it is likely that both the buyer and I were victimized by the DHL driver.

When I get reimbursed by DHL for the apparent stolen projector, I will see to it that the buyer gets refunded the money from her credit card transaction via paypal.

>>


While it seems very likely that the projector was stolen, noone really knows what happenned. I dont see anything wrong with waiting until DHL completes their formal investigation and makes their determination to reimburse you for the stolen projector.

I dont think that anyone believes that the cost of doing business on ebay is that you could potentially get screwed twice over.

I think both of you should think about filing a police report. As much volume as you move, you should probably also look to some sort of insurance policy that would protect you from this type of potential loss that will give you and your buyers more peace of mind.

WIth the policy, you can let the experts at the insurance company worry about finding out the facts from DHL and be certain that you would not incur a loss any way or the other.

This probably has cost you a lot of lost sleep. Dont let it cost you any more. There is nothing else at this point aside from making it right when DHL makes their determination and making peace with the buyer.

Again, if not for DHL there would be another happy customer here. Product was quickly shipped, with a considerate email even notifying when it was shipped. I really believe if not for DHL telling her that you were not communicating and not telling you right off the bat, without much investigating, that it was likely buyer fraud that you two would have been more civil with each other.

My wife has been on the buyer's side of transactions, for far less money than this, where she felt she was dealing with an unscrupulous seller. I have had to have gotten involved to resolve a couple of situations were ebay/paypal where involved. It doesnt seem to me that you are an unscrupulous seller.

Ive sold a few high dollar items through here and on ebay and I can assure you that I have felt your concern about potential fraud on those transactions. In my case where I can count them on one hand, it was easier to babysit them with phone calls and emails to make sure they had received them when shipped and that everything was ok with the product (so that I can put the fear of something rearing its ugly head at me down the road to bed.)

Rest easy, most of your potential customers arent on AVS forum because if they are gonna buy online, theyll buy from AVS 8). Even if they were, now that they know where you live 8), I dont think most would hesitate to buy from you because of this issue. It is time to move on from this one though.

Make peace with the buyer. Work with DHL. When they reimburse you, see to it that she gets her money back from the credit card/paypal transaction. Remove each others negative feedback.

Im gonna try to get back to bed now that my little one is asleep again. Peace, out.
post #137 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarger View Post

Thank you again you guys for your support here. I do really appreciate you that do see this in the Correct perspective. You will soon see the outcome as we are pushing DHL hard to make the final decision. If they pay us, Susan WILL be instantly refunded. I dont think we should ship her another projector at this point, but your insite is greatly appreciated. By refunding and not shipping another projector though we loose even more. Again, any input on this would be greatly appreciated - REFUND SUSAN or SHIP SUSAN ANOTHER PROJECTOR???

You wanted some advice? Send her the new projector. It will be worth a lot more in good will (and loss of sales) than the two projectors you may be down if you send her another in good faith.
Just do it!

If Susan is worth her salt she'll send you some insurance money back as a gesture of good will too!

You could almost get a desperate housewives series from all this!
post #138 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by susanandmark View Post

UPDATE: I went through my junk mail/SPAM folder tonight and did find an email dated 1/12 from Mr. Barger saying: "Your projector should arrive by Saturday," which would have been 1/13. That was the first time I'd seen that email, or I would have contacted Mr. Barger before I did.

This was added at 2:22AM today.

I apologize to SBarger for saying, "IF YOU HAD SENT THE TRACKING NUMBER, SHE WOULD HAVE KNOWN YOU SHIPPED THE PROJECTOR. She wouldn't have had to wait two weeks before contacting you to ask "what's up." TERRIBLE." I was wrong.

Sometimes, we make judgements based on the best facts available, and those judgements prove to be incorrect when new facts come in. For example, DHL might first say that a failed delivery was actually buyer fraud until further investigation shows that the problem was due to theft by an employee. At that point, a wise man will accept that he was incorrect and apologize, just as I am apologizing here for accusing SBarger of not sending the tracking number.
post #139 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie C View Post

You wanted some advice? Send her the new projector. It will be worth a lot more in good will (and loss of sales) than the two projectors you may be down if you send her another in good faith.
Just do it!

If Susan is worth her salt she'll send you some insurance money back as a gesture of good will too!

You could almost get a desperate housewives series from all this!

Umm. Susan will not get the insurance money. The Shipper will get the insurance money. It is up to the shipper to refund SBarger's money back to him, then it is up to SBarger to notify PayPal that he approves the chargeback, then it is up to PayPal to refund the money to Susan's credit card. If any of those steps doesn't happen, then the whole thing could be up in the air indefinitely.

I really didn't get the impression that Susan wanted a projector at this point. She just wants her money back. And, SBarger doesn't have any projectors to send. He's just a middle man between Susan and the distributor. SBarger would have to pony up another $3000 to get the distributor to ship another projector at this point, which is not reasonable. What SBarger _should_ do, is to notify PayPal as soon as he's gotten a refund from the shipper, so that they unfreeze the payment and Susan can get her refund.
post #140 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

You can ship it to the UPS center. When funlvr bought my Ruby, he had it shipped that way.


Hey how did I get dragged into all this , this is exactly why when I sold the Ruby to its new owner I hand delivered it
post #141 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by susanandmark View Post

FOR THAT LAST TIME, I DID NOT AND COULD NOT FILE A INSURANCE CLAIM WITH DHL. Never happened. In fact, when he wrote that to a DHL employee they emailed him back a lengthy explanation that I had not filed any insurance claim and it is the shipper that must do so. I have not been, and will not be, double compensated.
.

You are correct. The seller really need to just stop telling the double compensation story. The seller is ignorant of how insurance works. Enough with this silliness. Further with some companies UPS for example even if the buyer give a UPS account number and pays for shipping, UPS will still only pay the shipper even though the BUYER paid for shipping with his UPS account. Don't believe me, call them and ask. Anyone can call DHL and see that the seller is giving false information. The SHIPPER always gets the insurance money unless they give a written request to have the buyer paid directly.
post #142 of 246
I believe its in one of the cut and pastes from the DHL guy, that he says the buyer "made her claim" or words to that effect. I dont think it was meant to be "insurance claim" rather than just advising that the projector was never received, but thats probably where that misunderstanding comes from.

Quote:


Hey how did I get dragged into all this , this is exactly why when I sold the Ruby to its new owner I hand delivered it

Why the hell would I want to drag you into a train wreck? 8)
post #143 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSloth View Post


Here's what a reasonable person would do: the minute Susan contacted you telling you the projector never arrived, you should have called DHL. If they told you the projector was delivered, YOU should have told them the projector WAS NOT delivered, according to your customer, and they would have investigated. You should have then told Susan that you were working directly with DHL to investigate the situation, and you should have continued to follow up on it until the situation was resolved. ONLY AFTER DHL had positively determined, once and for all, after investigating, that Susan had committed fraud should you have have rejected Susan's claim. On the other hand, if DHLs investigation found the projector had NOT been delivered, you should have informed Susan of that fact, initiated any claim process with DHL to collect on the insurance, and reimbursed Susan WHEN that money arrived.

EXACTLY!!! Well said!

I had a similar experience years ago. I was buying laptops on Ubid and selling them for a profit on Ebay. One of my customers said he never received the laptop. I talked to him on the phone immediately, which was scary because he sounded very uneducated, and my gut reaction was that he was not honest. Never the less, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, even though tracking info said it was delivered, and told him I would contact the shipper. Within a few days, the shipping company took responsibility for the error (they left it outside his door, in a bad neighborhood!), gave me the insurance money, and I sent him a new computer. Everyone was happy.
post #144 of 246
I have poured over this thread trying to determine where the "fault" for this lies.

This is how I see it: Susan wanted to buy, and Steven wanted to sell the HC5000. Susan paid for it. Steven shipped it. Mayhem ensues.

This is actually a very common problem. If you were to you study commercial transactions in lawschool you would see that the issue of who bears the risk of loss when a transaction goes bad is probably the most important consideration in structuring a deal.

Although it is not entirely clear, from the terms of the shipping it appears that title did not pass and the risk of loss remained with Mr. Barger, until delivery was completed. This is evidened by the fact that Susan was not even able to file an insurance claim with DHL. The insurance was not for her benefit. It was for Mr. Barger's.

It also appears that Susan recognized this and desperately tried to convince Mr. Barger to file a claim with DHL. Mr. Barger was not receptive to this in spite of the fact that DHL had e-mailed him specifically about the non-delivery situation.

Under those circumstances, it seems entirely proper for Susan to have sought relief from Pay Pal. What other remedy did she have?

I understand that Mr. Barger arranged for the item to be shipped and was initially skeptical of the non-delivery. I would be too considering that the tracking number to this day shows that the package was delivered.

However, when faced with evidence that the package was, in fact, not delivered, he chose to disregard that evidence. Only now has he apparently filed a claim with DHL and is ensuring that all is made right with Susan. At the same time he continues to criticize her handling of this matter.

The record here speaks for itself. A business is defined by more than if it promply ships goods. Real customer service is tested when, as here, something goes wrong. Mr. Barger failed that test in my opinion. I would not order anything from him.
post #145 of 246
Quote:


Although it is not entirely clear, from the terms of the shipping it appears that title did not pass and the risk of loss remained with Mr. Barger, until delivery was completed. This is evidened by the fact that Susan was not even able to file an insurance claim with DHL. The insuranice was not for her benefit. It was for Mr. Barger's.

I dont think this really answers the question of who bears the risk.

The terms in the shipping agreement with the shipping company have absolutely nothing to do with the terms of the sale between the buyer and seller. UPS, or DHL, could consider the package to be the sellers until the buyer signs for it but if the buyer and seller agree to it being something else, eplicitly or implicitly, then for purposes of resolving a dispute between the buyer and the seller I dont believe the shipping agreement would have any bearing.

If the buyer PAID the seller for the insurance, even though the shipping company considers the insurance benefit to be the shippers, I would think that ultimately the insurance benefit is the buyer's.
post #146 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I have poured over this thread trying to determine where the "fault" for this lies.

This is how I see it: Susan wanted to buy, and Steven wanted to sell the HC5000. Susan paid for it. Steven shipped it. Mayhem ensues.

This is actually a very common problem. If you were to you study commercial transactions in lawschool you would see that the issue of who bears the risk of loss when a transaction goes bad is probably the most important consideration in structuring a deal.

Although it is not entirely clear, from the terms of the shipping it appears that title did not pass and the risk of loss remained with Mr. Barger, until delivery was completed. This is evidened by the fact that Susan was not even able to file an insurance claim with DHL. The insurance was not for her benefit. It was for Mr. Barger's.

It also appears that Susan recognized this and desperately tried to convince Mr. Barger to file a claim with DHL. Mr. Barger was not receptive to this in spite of the fact that DHL had e-mailed him specifically about the non-delivery situation.

Under those circumstances, it seems entirely proper for Susan to have sought relief from Pay Pal. What other remedy did she have?

I understand that Mr. Barger arranged for the item to be shipped and was initially skeptical of the non-delivery. I would be too considering that the tracking number to this day shows that the package was delivered.

However, when faced with evidence that the package was, in fact, not delivered, he chose to disregard that evidence. Only now has he apparently filed a claim with DHL and is ensuring that all is made right with Susan. At the same time he continues to criticize her handling of this matter.

The record here speaks for itself. A business is defined by more than if it promply ships goods. Real customer service is tested when, as here, something goes wrong. Mr. Barger failed that test in my opinion. I would not order anything from him.


Fact is that we did step up, we did contact DHL immediately and we did file the insurance claim that is due to be finialized on Tuesday, Had Susan complained or not, had she defamed us or not, had she threated or not, she was Always going to be refunded or shipped a replacement IF THE DHL REVIEW BOARD AGREED THIS DID HAPPEN. She contacted us on 1/26 and DHL initiated the claim THAT DAY but told us to not count on a refund as this LOOKED TO BE BUYER FRAUD. We will have a 3 week insurance process reduced down to 10 days due to our diligence in resolving this issue and our customer service. We were Never faced with any fact that the package was not delivered. 1 DHL employee stated a theory as to what May have happened. What we did have is the Facts that It was delivered, that is Did have S Williams signature, that Mike with DHL DID CLEARY STATED that Susan initiated the claim with DHL and that 2 days after her very first email that see did not receive the projector, she DID file a paypal dispute that DID freeze our funds.

The facts are that we have shipped over 600 projectors, ALL arrived, ALL left postive feedback, even when 5 of those were lost in transit, Those customers contacted us kindly, Did not file an INSTANT paypal dispute knowing they were safe having 45 days to do so and 60 days to file a CC dispute, so they DID not Freeze their payment to me, we gladly contacted DHL Immediately exactly as we did here. And we reshipped ALL 5 of those customers NEW projectors within 2 weeks time frame and EVERY ONE of them left Positive feedback as they knew for a fact, Just as SUSAN has always known, that thier Shipping Loss was due to the Carrier, not the Seller.

So yes, I agree as you stated - The record here speaks for itself. A business is defined by more than if it promply ships goods. Real customer service is tested when, as here, something goes wrong. Mr. Barger failed that test in my opinion. I would not order anything from him.[/quote]

We have 100% PROVEN customer service on over 600 projectors sold and have a 99.9999% PROVEN customer service record on over 20,000 other items and the fact that Susan contacted us on 1/26 with an enourmous issue that we will be able to resolve in less than 10 days time with a Full Refund. SO YES, Real Customer Service Speaks For Itself, We have undeniable proof of that and I completely Agree
post #147 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

You are correct. The seller really need to just stop telling the double compensation story. The seller is ignorant of how insurance works. Enough with this silliness. Further with some companies UPS for example even if the buyer give a UPS account number and pays for shipping, UPS will still only pay the shipper even though the BUYER paid for shipping with his UPS account. Don't believe me, call them and ask. Anyone can call DHL and see that the seller is giving false information. The SHIPPER always gets the insurance money unless they give a written request to have the buyer paid directly.

- The SHIPPER always gets the insurance money unless they give a written request to have the buyer paid directly. -

Exactly and that is what we said we would do in the 2nd email to Susan on 1/26. We said contact DHL to see what that will have to say and we will gladly sign any insurance paperwork for you to get the insurance claim with them. This is A FACT.
post #148 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarger View Post

We have 100% PROVEN customer service on over 600 projectors sold and have a 99.9999% PROVEN customer service record on over 20,000 other items and the fact that Susan contacted us on 1/26 with an enourmous issue that we will be able to resolve in less than 10 days time with a Full Refund. SO YES, Real Customer Service Speaks For Itself, We have undeniable proof of that and I completely Agree

I advise you not to speak of this issue on this forum again, esp. in this thread. Every rant you go on does not win you any points. Everytime somebody replies to you they add the " I will not buy from him" comment at the end. Don't continue to argue the points.

See "lawguy" last sentence as the most recent example.

Fix this issue, get the buyer to agree to amend the feedback and be done with it.

K
post #149 of 246
Here is a great analogy. I purchase a new car and then call my insurance company and give them my CC over the phone for insurance payment. I park it out front, it gets stolen. I call my insurance company and demand that they either give me a new car or a full refund within 7 days or I'm going to dispute my CC charge and if need be, take you to small claims court. The insurance company tells me that there is a process that has been initiated, but there is no way that they can resolve this within 7 days demanded. So then I immediately file a CC chargeback and remove my payment from the Insurance company, but still demand a full refund or a new car from them. What do you think they would tell me? Honestly. And would they have been accused of Poor Customer Service?
post #150 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevivoe View Post

I advise you not to speak of this issue on this forum again, esp. in this thread. Every rant you go on does not win you any points. Everytime somebody replies to you they add the " I will not buy from him" comment at the end. Don't continue to argue the points.

See "lawguy" last sentence as the most recent example.

Fix this issue, get the buyer to agree to amend the feedback and be done with it.

K


We are fixing it as fast as we possibly can, that was never the issue. I will agree to amend the feedback as well after we refund Susan.

My only rants are in complete self defense. Point is we did everything we were supposed to do, when we were supposed to do it. See the above analogy for some insite on what we were faced with.
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