AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › CD Players & Dedicated Music Transports › External DAC vs Stereo Preamp: Which would you add to multichannel setup?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

External DAC vs Stereo Preamp: Which would you add to multichannel setup?

post #1 of 13
2/1/07 at 6:04am
Thread Starter 
I am beginning my upgrade quest in earnest, beginning with an emphasis on multichannel performance for HT. To that end, I will be upgrading my speakers (to Aurum Cantus Supremes, Rhythm and V2Ms for surround duties), adding a multichannel amp (Plinius Odeon) and swopping out my subwoofer (either a Velodyne DD-18 or the JL Audio Fathom F113) within the next few months.

For the moment, I intend to continue using my Denon 2805 as a pre/pro until a wider selection of pre/pros with HDMI inputs are available for next-gen audio formats. I personally do not need HDMI 1.3 but it seems as though all the high end audio companies are awaiting finalisation of 1.3 before they release their HDMI-equipped decks. I'm sort of tempted by the Cary Cinema 11 but am hesitant because I've read that they are working on a higher-end model and also because, to take advantage of the advanced audio codecs, one will also need to buy the as-yet unreleased Cary video processor (which is a component I'm not particularly keen on adding as I've come to the conclusion that it is infinitely more worthwhile to spend $$$ on the audio side of things since the technology does not become obsolete nearly as quickly as on the video side of HT).

Anyhow, my question is: what do I upgrade next after the multichannel amp (or perhaps even before)? I currently have a Sonos system hooked up to my Denon 2805 and have begun ripping my CDs in lossless format. What should I add next? An external DAC for the Sonos or a stereo pre-amp (again, primarily to use its DACs for the Sonos)? Please excuse my ignorance but what are the advantages of a pre-amp over an external DAC and vice versa? Will it be necessary to eventually get both?

After that, my next big question will be whether to upgrade to 7.1 or to biamp the front 3 channels by adding tube amps and an active crossover. But until then, I'll be grateful for any advice on my present question.
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #2 of 13
2/1/07 at 8:10am
preamp has volume control, dac does not. Do you need to control the volume of your Sonos, or do you already have control over that?

Potentially, a 1000$ dac would be better than a 1000$ preamp since the DAC's money would be concentrated on only the DAC section. I don't know too much about that though.
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 13
2/1/07 at 12:56pm
I am in sort of the same boat that you are...

i guess the biggest question is how much of an improvment do you think the external DAC would be over the 2805's internal DAC's [or your next pre/pro's internal DAC's]. This is assuming your using the optical or coax digi out from the Sonos directly to your 2805. I know the Squeezebox uses BurrBrown 24bit DAC for its analog outs, not sure the specs on the SONOS analog out though.

I am far from an expert here, but I would think you would want to send your 16 bit 44hz music unfiltered and unsampled as far as you can in the chain.

you may be splitting hairs here though, though I don't really see a need for a preamp unless you absolutely need its phono/headphones options?

ps....on a side note, i am going to love when someone finally comes out with a wireless server that has a HDMI A/V passthrough directly to your pre/pro or AVR. If the processer/AVR is able to handle this input and pass through the video to you TV and speakers it will elimnate so many issues [allegidly]
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 13
2/1/07 at 1:04pm
also I think you have the "Direct" or pure direct mode on the 2805 right? You might want to check as I believe it shuts down any A-D-A conversion
Reply
Reply
post #5 of 13
2/1/07 at 6:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

preamp has volume control, dac does not. Do you need to control the volume of your Sonos, or do you already have control over that?

Potentially, a 1000$ dac would be better than a 1000$ preamp since the DAC's money would be concentrated on only the DAC section. I don't know too much about that though.

Thanks. Sonos does have volume control and, of course, I can use the volume control on the 2805 (or the pre/pro that replaces it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenassco View Post

i guess the biggest question is how much of an improvment do you think the external DAC would be over the 2805's internal DAC's [or your next pre/pro's internal DAC's]. This is assuming your using the optical or coax digi out from the Sonos directly to your 2805. I know the Squeezebox uses BurrBrown 24bit DAC for its analog outs, not sure the specs on the SONOS analog out though.

I'm pretty sure any external DAC I get will be better than that of the 2805's, though with the new pre/pro, that's harder to say. I guess it may be better for me to lump the $$ I'm willing to spend on the external DAC and simply get a better multichannel pre/pro with better DACs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenassco View Post

you may be splitting hairs here though, though I don't really see a need for a preamp unless you absolutely need its phono/headphones options?

I agree. I wasn't sure what else a preamp did beyond an external DAC. Hence my question.

Thanks all. Its been very helpful.
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 13
2/2/07 at 2:21pm
Keep in mind that good quality external DAC's are known more for what they don't do. In other words, don't expect miracles. Do expect (with a good one), less grain, less digital glare, and a quieter noise floor. Alot will depend on your system overall.
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 13
2/3/07 at 7:15pm
kayelefkay,

I know this is a common answer, but it still holds true - if you currently have no acoustic treatments to your room, do those before any more hardware upgrades. You might be surprised at the results. I use bass traps, corner traps, and early reflection point treatments, and their combined effect really improved sound quality, both for movies, and 2-channel music.

The ultimate preamp/linestage is none at all, in my opinion. Driving amps directly from the sound source when possible, is great.

Not all external DACs have fixed level outputs. For the case of two-channel, I'd either get a DAC with variable outputs and drive amps directly, or use a very simple preamp like a passive preamp or device like the EVS Ultimate Attenuators.

On the digital server side - make sure your source files have lossless compression.

- Steve O.
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 13
2/3/07 at 9:10pm
Thread Starter 
steveinaz, thanks for tempering my expectations. I do hope (and expect) to hear some difference since I will be upgrading from a denon 2805.

Steve O, I realise that room treatment is the most important link in the entire audio chain but I'm currently renting , so I can't really spend too much on the room since I don't know where I will be moving to next (size, room configuration etc.) When I eventually buy my own place, room treatment will certainly be top on my agenda.

And yeah, am starting to rip in lossless now and also slowly replacing my older rips with lossless tracks too
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 13
2/4/07 at 5:26am
DAC's are the kind of upgrade that you'll appreciate over days/weeks. That's when the improvements will be apparent---after you've had time to listen to alot of your music library.
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 13
2/4/07 at 9:13am
kayelefkay,

The difference between a room with and without treatments can be heard - and it's like a night and day difference. I heard much more clarity in small details. Bass distortion can affect midrange.

Even if you're in an apartment or rented room somewhere, it's really no excuse for not getting room treatments, unless you are totally constrained by space.

Bass traps/tube traps simply stand in the corners of your room. First reflection diffusors/absorbers can also stand upright away from the side walls with an air gap. Corner pillows/corner seams can be pushpinned into drywall - a few dabs of spackle erase any traces of the pinholes.

You don't have to buy the expensive ready-made treatments, either. There are some effective DIY recipes online which many folks here have used with success.

All of those treatments can simply be moved from your rented listening room to your future place, of course.

If you were in the Phoenix metro area, I'd offer to let you borrow all of my treatments for a week or two, and you would be convinced, I guarantee it

- Steve O.
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 13
2/4/07 at 7:17pm
Thread Starter 
I do intend to get myself a rug and perhaps an Auralex subdude for my subwoofer.

Otherwise, I was hoping that the other acoustical treatments can be "built-in" so as to be less obtrustive when I get my own place (in Asia, our apartments are really teeny tiny). There is also the very real possibility that that might happen in less than 1 year, so I'm not exactly putting this off for very long. Don't worry, I am convinced that this is important and will probably start thinking about a temporary solution if I don't get my own place within a year.
Reply
Reply
post #12 of 13
2/6/07 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayelefkay View Post

I am beginning my upgrade quest in earnest, beginning with an emphasis on multichannel performance for HT. To that end, I will be upgrading my speakers (to Aurum Cantus Supremes, Rhythm and V2Ms for surround duties), adding a multichannel amp (Plinius Odeon) and swopping out my subwoofer (either a Velodyne DD-18 or the JL Audio Fathom F113) within the next few months.

For the moment, I intend to continue using my Denon 2805 as a pre/pro until a wider selection of pre/pros with HDMI inputs are available for next-gen audio formats. I personally do not need HDMI 1.3 but it seems as though all the high end audio companies are awaiting finalisation of 1.3 before they release their HDMI-equipped decks. I'm sort of tempted by the Cary Cinema 11 but am hesitant because I've read that they are working on a higher-end model and also because, to take advantage of the advanced audio codecs, one will also need to buy the as-yet unreleased Cary video processor (which is a component I'm not particularly keen on adding as I've come to the conclusion that it is infinitely more worthwhile to spend $$$ on the audio side of things since the technology does not become obsolete nearly as quickly as on the video side of HT).

Anyhow, my question is: what do I upgrade next after the multichannel amp (or perhaps even before)? I currently have a Sonos system hooked up to my Denon 2805 and have begun ripping my CDs in lossless format. What should I add next? An external DAC for the Sonos or a stereo pre-amp (again, primarily to use its DACs for the Sonos)? Please excuse my ignorance but what are the advantages of a pre-amp over an external DAC and vice versa? Will it be necessary to eventually get both?

After that, my next big question will be whether to upgrade to 7.1 or to biamp the front 3 channels by adding tube amps and an active crossover. But until then, I'll be grateful for any advice on my present question.

It sounds like you need a DAC of some type. The Denon probably doesn't do a bad job as a DAC. But, it isn't a good preamp, even in pure-direct mode. So, if you get an external DAC, and plug it into the Denon as your pre, I would suggest you will have little difference in your sound, and it may even be worse.

If you want both a volume control and stereo DAC, then I suggest you live with the Denon a bit longer, and come up with a way to remove the Denon from the stereo listening chain.

I had to do this in my system. I use a Bel Canto DAC2 (the new DAC3 has a volume control, and a pre-in, I believe, making it a full-functioning DAC with preamp, for one input). I also use a Placette Passive preamp, with one input modified by Placette to be a home-theatre bypass (no volume control - it's just a switcher for this input). This lets me put the Placette between the pre/pro and the amp, without reducing my sound quality.

For stereo, there is nothing like the Placette for pure transparency. And, I can choose whatever DAC I like. The Home Theatre is unaffected. It is a perfect solution.

Oh, and 7.1 is over-rated, though I use it because of the layout of my room. If your room can have good placement for the rears, I wouldn't bother with 7.1 yet, though having the ability in the receiver or pre/pro is a good idea for the future.
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 13
2/14/07 at 6:37am
My experience is similar to yours, somewhat. I had a combo HT/2-channel rig. I realized that I should upgrade my CD player (or add a DAC), but trying out a player with a reputation for sounding quite different from my current player revealed that my pre-pro (Sherwood-Newcastle P965) was good, but not capable of the resolution to differentiate between CD players. I also suspect, but cannot prove, that the P965 is sending the analog signal through a A>D>A conversion cycle. I added a 2-channel preamp (a used C-J PV11), and the resolution has improved greatly (again, the Sherwood is no slouch, but the tube-based Connie-J is in another league altogether). If I could have afforded it, a HT bypass option would have been nice, but sonics were the priority in my selection of the C-J preamp. One outcome is that the preamp has highlighted the differences among my 2-channel sources (TT, cassette, etc.), and I know I need to upgrade the CD player. Unfortunately, I used the money for the CDP upgrade to buy the preamp (and two subwoofers - but that's another story), so I am on hold. But I have learned firsthand that downstream components & speakers can sound no better than what is feeding them upstream. A quality source component is a must!
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › CD Players & Dedicated Music Transports › External DAC vs Stereo Preamp: Which would you add to multichannel setup?