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High end gear equal high end room?

post #1 of 60
2/2/07 at 10:10am
Thread Starter 
I have a few questions I've always wondered about. Do those of you purchasing such high end gear have high end rooms to match?

For example, for your home theaters, do you have acoustically treated rooms and theaters? Do you calibrate how you position your speakers? Do you have separate listening rooms?

One reason I ask is and there is no right or wrong answer, I just wonder because so often you see high end gear sold in rooms that are really in no position to showcase the acoustic temperament of said pieces.

Time is obviously an issue with people. Do you find youhave time to even enjoy your gear as much as you like?

Just wondering.

Richard
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post #2 of 60
2/2/07 at 10:17am
Quote:


One reason I ask is and there is no right or wrong answer, I just wonder because so often you see high end gear sold in rooms that are really in no position to showcase the acoustic temperament of said pieces.

I'd say there is a right answer. People with systems in untreated crappy rooms don't care about audio, they're just rich and want the prestige of disposing their disposal income on status symbols.

Given that the room is one of the most crucially important components in any audio system, it should be fundamentally part of the system from the get-go.
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post #3 of 60
2/2/07 at 10:30am
Or you could do a Meridian Digital Theater and configure it for best surround sound quality, with minimum interference with the decor.

You would be surprised how this Swiss army Knife of surround sound system manages to outperform the best treated rooms in the most widespread of acoustical situations.
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post #4 of 60
2/2/07 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Or you could do a Meridian Digital Theater and configure it for best surround sound quality, with minimum interference with the decor.

You would be surprised how this Swiss army Knife of surround sound system manages to outperform the best treated rooms in the most widespread of acoustical situations.

Yes but it sounds even better in an acoustically-good room.
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post #5 of 60
2/2/07 at 10:36am
I think most who post here know the importance of the room (and have treated rooms at home) and dont simply buy great stuff because it looks good and was 'A' rated in Stereophile.
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post #6 of 60
2/2/07 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Yes but it sounds even better in an acoustically-good room.

Of course, yet don't go discounting the value of suede paint as a HFA. I can tell of an MDT treated with such paint that with some luck sounded phenomenal.
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post #7 of 60
2/2/07 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I think most who post here know the importance of the room (and have treated rooms at home) and dont simply buy great stuff because it looks good and was 'A' rated in Stereophile.

One might hope so.
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post #8 of 60
2/2/07 at 10:54am
CAVEAT: Except if Kal gave it an 'A'...then it matters little where it plays.
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post #9 of 60
2/2/07 at 11:33am
Thread Starter 
LOL, thanks for the answers so far guys. It amuses me that one can walk into a high end botique and plainly see that listening rooms aren't constructed to any sort of listening standard or desirability.

Richard
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post #10 of 60
2/5/07 at 7:09am
Thread Starter 
On average. how much time do you guys spend in your rooms? A movie a week? A few hours of listening a week?

Richard
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post #11 of 60
2/5/07 at 7:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

People with systems in untreated crappy rooms don't care about audio, they're just rich and want the prestige of disposing their disposal income on status symbols.

THe best/worst example I saw of this was years ago. I saw the JBL Everest series (and at least 2 other pairs of speakers) installed in a 10 X 10 X 8' room. One 15 amp circuit powering a number of tube amplifiers scattered on the floor with interconnects the thickness of my wrist. No room treatment at all, but hey, the massive power line conditioners took care of that...

As they say: All show, no go.
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post #12 of 60
2/5/07 at 7:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSRichard View Post

On average. how much time do you guys spend in your rooms? A movie a week? A few hours of listening a week?

Richard

40 hrs a week - minimum. My home office starts behind my rear surrounds. I am lucky I get to enjoy my system daily.
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post #13 of 60
2/5/07 at 7:57am
I've used my theater about two thousand hours in the past three years. That really is almost entirely weekends. I usually work four days per week and my room is treated. I do not have a seperate listening room but as we speak I'm not into two channel.

Art
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post #14 of 60
2/5/07 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

THe best/worst example I saw of this was years ago. I saw the JBL Everest series (and at least 2 other pairs of speakers) installed in a 10 X 10 X 8' room.

hah! The worst I saw was the press unveiling of a new JBL Everest in a hotel penthouse. The room was hard with glass all around and, of course, no room treatment. In JBL's defense, they acknowledged the problems. To their shame, they insisted on running the demos at very high SPLs. Several of us decamped to the outside terrace.

I would not be surprised if this was typical of some domestic installations.
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post #15 of 60
2/5/07 at 10:44am
I continually see expensive 'boutique' equipment set up in completely untreated rooms ... and, in many cases where no attempt was made to do just basic level matching. On the other hand, most of your retail sources for this type of equipment don't have a clue and have a business model based on 'boxes out the door'. As well, in talking (off the record) with several such manufacturers, they fear the very thought of suggesting room treatments, EQ, and calibration would lead a consumer to believe their equipment isn't as good as they say it is.
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post #16 of 60
2/5/07 at 5:45pm
Quote:


People with systems in untreated crappy rooms don't care about audio, they're just rich and want the prestige of disposing their disposal income on status symbols.

By "people" I presume you mean retailers and not hobbyists, which is really
not what Richard asked. If you do mean hobbyist, then...

#1) Ba-jillionaires excluded, systems are built incrementally with the most
affordable yet vital improvements added first.

#2) The room is the most expensive and difficult component, and the very last
issue to be addressed for almost every hobbyist. But we still have fun, even
though our room may not live up to the equipment's potential.

#3) Top-shelf equipment in an untreated, mediocre room sounds 100% better
than mid-fi equipment in an untreated, mediocre room.

#4) I can move my speakers, amps, etc as my career/life changes, but I can't
invest in a dedicated room until I'm retired. But when I do, I'll be ready.

#5) Bose is a status symbol, not obscure high-end brands and silly garden hose
speaker cables. Unless your friends are audiophiles, a high-end system is more
of a stigmata than a status symbol.
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post #17 of 60
2/5/07 at 5:55pm
Quote:


#2) The room is the most expensive and difficult component

Ridiculous. Outrageous. Absurd.

Quote:


#3) Top-shelf equipment in an untreated, mediocre room sounds 100% better
than mid-fi equipment in an untreated, mediocre room.

Mid Fi equipment in a treated room will easily best both.

Quote:


#4) I can move my speakers, amps, etc as my career/life changes, but I can't
invest in a dedicated room until I'm retired. But when I do, I'll be ready.

Really? You can't afford a couple hundred dollars on treatments or materials?

There is no excuse for not dealing with room acoustics. None.

Basic treatments can be aesthetically pleasing, and they can be extremely affordable.

People love to make excuses about why they don't pay attention to their room acoustics, and all of those excuses really are silly. By far the cheapest and most effective tweak, and the greatest return on investment is addressing room acoustics. Nothing else is nearly as significant as that, nor as cheap to do.
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post #18 of 60
2/6/07 at 4:38am
Quote:


#3) Top-shelf equipment in an untreated, mediocre room sounds 100% better
than mid-fi equipment in an untreated, mediocre room.

Unfortunately, even the best (or most expensive) gear cannot overcome the laws of physics. Some of this stuff is marketed this way; but, that doesn't make it true.
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post #19 of 60
2/6/07 at 7:13am
I say a High End room can be ANY room made by anybody with any price level of equipment.

The only thing that matters to me is that the person knows how his room interacts with the sound from his loudspeakers, has acoustically treated his listening room for maximum performance, has tweaked his system to get the best possible performance from it, and has reasonably flat frequency response from 20kHz-15hz.
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post #20 of 60
2/6/07 at 9:36am
'high end' has a few connotations.

it typically refers to more expensive esoteric 2-channel gear built with reproduction performance as the priority. what constitues 'more expensive' is debatable.

a high end room would be a room where there is gear that at least proposes to be high end and that system is the focus of the room.

it is possible to put 'high end' gear into any domestic room and assuming the gear is used within the limits of the room you would have high end sound. what a good room does is expand the ability of the gear to involve you without stressing at higher SPL's. at low SPL's in a small space listening in extreme near-field the room is taken out of the equation.

many audiophiles have tiny untreated rooms; but they may listen to string quartets on tiny bookshelf speakers thru 2A3 amps......they have high end systems with high end rooms but their listening habits properly compliment the system and room......and, at least by my definition, are high end.

if you want the ability to listen to full blown orchestral music or rock concert type music in a life like way at full frequency then you do have your work cut out for you regarding gear and room.

ultimately 'high end' is a mind-set.......a way of thinking......the price of the gear and the acoustics of the room are not the issue. the 'high end' is accesable to anyone that has the proper sense of the music. to put a finer point on it....the high end is where the gear, the room and the music are all in balance.
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post #21 of 60
2/6/07 at 2:51pm
Quote:
it is possible to put 'high end' gear into any domestic room and assuming the gear is used within the limits of the room you would have high end sound.

I disagree, although I am sure that this a very common sentiment among high end circles. Bad acoustics will still significantly affect the sound, regardless of playback volume.

Many high end enthusiasts spend thousands on esoteric cables, racks, points, pads, etc. before they install their 1st bass trap. For ~$500 that same person could purchase some rudimentary treatments and significantly improve their sound. A full-blown custom room (like yours) is obviously a large expense and not in everyone's immediate budget.
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post #22 of 60
2/6/07 at 3:20pm
THe room is the largest and (in many cases) the most expensive part of the sound system.

THat is it.
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post #23 of 60
2/6/07 at 5:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

I continually see expensive 'boutique' equipment set up in completely untreated rooms ... and, in many cases where no attempt was made to do just basic level matching. On the other hand, most of your retail sources for this type of equipment don't have a clue and have a business model based on 'boxes out the door'. As well, in talking (off the record) with several such manufacturers, they fear the very thought of suggesting room treatments, EQ, and calibration would lead a consumer to believe their equipment isn't as good as they say it is.

You think it's that or a big piece of the budget will be diverted to other purchases that don't benefit them? That's probably the biggest issue.

Also, better equipment is an obvious way to improve the system, better acoustics is not to most people (not in the field). It's also not as tangible to the purchaser what they are getting for the money. In any case, I've seen few acoustically treated rooms that are aesthetically pleasing, so I can also understand not wanting to do it as well. To me, this is an obvious extension to the interior design field (have an acoustic specialist) that allows the designer to mask the room engineering they are doing. If you have stereo sales guy doing it, you'll end up with the silly looking panels on your walls and the bass cylinder thingy and it will be obvious what they are for.
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post #24 of 60
2/6/07 at 5:38pm
So very true thomsens...
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post #25 of 60
2/6/07 at 7:34pm
On the topic of retailers not really supporting room acoustic treatments...
its much easier to make a living selling accessories such as power, cabling, furniture then it is with room treatment options. I hear many of similar quotes all the time:
"my buddy has hardwood floors and it sounds great!!! dont let me forget to get some monster cables to make the speakers sound the best before I go!"
The lower to mid priced gear retailers(lets say under 20k$ systems) in my eyes doesn't have a easy go to options to make a living on room treatment items the way they do with every other "monster cable" type product. Especially not in the "help yourself" big box dealers
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post #26 of 60
2/6/07 at 8:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_R View Post

I disagree, although I am sure that this a very common sentiment among high end circles. Bad acoustics will still significantly affect the sound, regardless of playback volume.

Many high end enthusiasts spend thousands on esoteric cables, racks, points, pads, etc. before they install their 1st bass trap. For ~$500 that same person could purchase some rudimentary treatments and significantly improve their sound. A full-blown custom room (like yours) is obviously a large expense and not in everyone's immediate budget.

obviously; my personal approach agrees with your point that bad acoustics significantly affect the sound. but my point is that special gear will still make special music although limited. a quality source, amplification and speakers can make 'special' music in a marginal room just as a person singing in that room or a guitar playing in that room could. a clear natural sound coming from the speakers will always make a big difference.

furthermore; simply having a clue about speaker placement and appropriate listening distances gets you a good way to decent sound.

we are really speaking of degrees here......there is no line separating good and bad sound.

i suppose it's weird for me to be arguing this side of this issue; but intelligent set-up and a good sense of system balance combined with quality gear will equal good sound regardless of the room.

everyday we see system pictures where the speakers are hard against the back wall or inside cabinets with a big TV between them. i don't care what room that occurs in......it will be flat and bright.

we also see small living rooms without treatment, with bad room size ratios.....but the speakers (with limited low frequency response) are out in the room (like a musician) and the listening position is at an equalateral triangle and fairly near-field. lots of small scale music can sound quite good in that environment.
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post #27 of 60
2/6/07 at 9:46pm
Thread Starter 
I love all the responses of this thread and it certainly points out a few things. To me, I grew up listening to music. I was in band, played percussion and piano, and movie soundtracks were my life along with classical records. Yes I'm old enough to admit I had Star Wars LPs and everything else.

It's funny though, how home theater has taken over as a primary interest vs strictly audio. My wife put the situplation that our theater room had to look like a family room. So I although I have a big screen TV and front towers, the rears are in ceiling and the equipment went into a closet.

One day we both want a dedicated theater and not just paint on the walls but accoustic tiles and panels along with columns or pillars etc. It's another reason I asked about how many of you treat your rooms.

Also, one of these days, instead of buying whatever audio doodad I can fit to my iPod (yes I realize MP3s are horribly compressed) I want to get a nice receiver and speakers for my living room so I can play CDs or concert DVDs.

See, my wife bought me a Morris chair for our 11th anniversary and a matching ottoman. It's qaurter sawn oak with a Boston stain. It's a beautiful chair and will last a lifetime in our family I'm sure. And that got me to thinking. What nice speakers can I put with it at least to have good audio while I read my magazines or surf on the forum?

It got me to thinking about getting back into just enjoying music like I used to. And with that it got me to thinking about how much I'd pay to have a "quality" experience. Highly subjective yes, but it's how my brain works. Which then got me to thinking about room treatments, etc.

Since I also love home theater, I wondered what treatments you guys gave your rooms.

What amazes me is that the high end epxerience seems to be a large part of everyone here. Whether it is your office, your job or your relaxation, it brings people together and satisfies us in ways nothing else can. Granted I'm not there on the gear price tag yet, but I aim to be.

So here's to more great replies and here's to a few more things to think about regarding room treatments.

Richard
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post #28 of 60
2/6/07 at 10:21pm
Richard,

good choice on the chair.

i am about to buy a Morris Chair (Stickley?) for my rec room/pool room in my barn. i think they are waay cool looking. mine will be dark cherry.
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post #29 of 60
2/7/07 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rene-L View Post

Talking about chairs... and acoustical treatments...

Have you noticed how many so called 'golden ear' audiophiles have a luxury listening chair with a huge wide headrest on it: WRONG!

They simply BLOCK ALL THE SOUND coming from the surround speakers or from vital indirect reflections from FL/FR. Even direct stereo sound from FL/FR speakers is influenced getting unwanted extra reflections from the headrest as if you held your hands behind your ear to make them bigger.

PURIST audiophile chair has NO HEADREST and is maximum shoulder hight, period.

i agree to some degree; but it's not that simple.

head rests come in all shapes and sizes; some of which have little sonic influence (i'm not saying none). i use to use the Ekones Stressless chair; which has a wide back/head rest that 'cups' the sound and does have a sonic penalty. any headrest that 'wraps around' the head in a curve or is very wide is not a good choice sonically.

i still have three Ekones Stressless chairs; in my HT.

i listen in my 2-channel room for hours on end.....sometimes 10-12 hours continuously. a chair without a head rest eventually will become tiresome.

my chair has a narrow tall backrest; but it is rounded away from my head and has a separate 'half-round' headrest' that also curves away from my head......so there is almost no surface that reflects back to my ears, and my head is resting away from the chair back. i also have chairs in my room with no back or head rest. my tall chair does sound different (but not worse) than the shorter chairs but just slightly; and it is infinitly more comfortable.

i am not saying that generally head rests are good......but properly designed they can work fine as a listening chair.
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post #30 of 60
2/7/07 at 6:45am
Let me add fuel to the fire. There are some fairly well known people in the industry who say that average rooms are just fine and need just a little if any treatment. Richard Hardesty is one of those. Another is Sigfried Linkwitz. I find it interesting the debate that apparently has gone on about killing first reflections.

I am not endorsing one position or the other (but I have treated my room and had it tested).
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