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OFFICIAL Hsu MBM-12 thread - Page 8

post #211 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by union1411 View Post

What does this accomplish? You now have incorrect distances for two subs rather than for just one.

For example, if your true sub is 9 feet away and the MBM is 1 foot away, using your method, the receiver is told that a 30hz sound is coming from 5 feet away, when in reality it is coming from 9 feet away, and the receiver is also told that a 60hz sound is coming from 5 feet away when in reality it is coming from 1 foot away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by union1411 View Post

What does this accomplish? You now have incorrect distances for two subs rather than for just one.

For example, if your true sub is 9 feet away and the MBM is 1 foot away, using your method, the receiver is told that a 30hz sound is coming from 5 feet away, when in reality it is coming from 9 feet away, and the receiver is also told that a 60hz sound is coming from 5 feet away when in reality it is coming from 1 foot away.

The MBM-12 manual suggests if you are using the MBM-12 near-field and a subwoofer far-field without separate delay...

"...Method A. Connecting to controllers with a SUBWOOFER or LFE output
Use a Y adapter to split the signal from the sub out to feed both the true subwoofer and the MBM-12. Set the crossover frequency on the subwoofer to 50 Hz, and crossover switch to ‘in’. The MBM-12 will then reproduce the range from 50 Hz up to the crossover frequency set on your controller. Your true subwoofer will reproduce the range from 50 Hz down. Set the distance parameter on the controller for the subwoofer to the distance of the MBM-12 to you....


If averaging the distance sounds better in your room that's what I would do. Right now I have my MBM-12's up front with my mains. I am using an auxilary channel in my processor for the MBM's which allows a separate delay. I'm not sure if it's required since my MBM's/Conquests are only 4 ft apart.

John
post #212 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by John H View Post

Bill,

Yes by processor I mean receiver or controller.

I have my X-30 before my 8033 in the signal chain.

Sub Out -> X-30 -> 8033 -> Subwoofers

Since you already have your subwoofers balanced I would just insert the X-30 into the chain with the volume level knob turned completely down counterclockwise. Crossover cutoff turned completely clockwise to it's highest setting and Phase control set to 0º. Phase control is only active through the top #1 subwoofer output on the rear of the X-30.

Turn your systems calibrating pink noise or test DVD's noise on and the power light should illuminate. Raise the volume on the X-30 slowly until your subwoofers are all set for reference with your other speakers again. Check the position of the X-30's volume control. I just like to have mine below 10:00 o'clock and the subwoofer level setting in the receiver in the negative range when everything is calibrated. Thats my preference.

John

OK, installed the X-30 and surprise, it works! The unit must be a mini-amp of some kind. I checked the LFE db at the highest setting and it output at around 94 spl. My reciever is set at -7.5 db and is clear without distortion. I have set the X-30 at -34 on its volume dial, and that is about 4.5 db higher then the mains and surrounds from the reciever db. I have engaged the 15-25 lift on the 8033 and watching some movie clips tonight the bass is excellent with no distortion. War of the Worlds hit 105 db at the sweet spot. The WAF says the bass sounds good and she approves, and she said that in the past she didn't like the bass due to the high db that had to be engaged in order to reach the same level of db that I do now with the X-30 in place. Hey, its like having a whole new setup. Love it! I have plenty of head room on the subs so I don't have to worry about bottoming out due to the X-30 and the 8033 lift.

Thanx, Bill
post #213 of 466
Bill, can you provide a link to more information on the X-30?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

OK, installed the X-30 and surprise, it works! The unit must be a mini-amp of some kind. I checked the LFE db at the highest setting and it output at around 94 spl. My reciever is set at -7.5 db and is clear without distortion. I have set the X-30 at -34 on its volume dial, and that is about 4.5 db higher then the mains and surrounds from the reciever db. I have engaged the 15-25 lift on the 8033 and watching some movie clips tonight the bass is excellent with no distortion. War of the Worlds hit 105 db at the sweet spot. The WAF says the bass sounds good and she approves, and she said that in the past she didn't like the bass due to the high db that had to be engaged in order to reach the same level of db that I do now with the X-30 in place. Hey, its like having a whole new setup. Love it! I have plenty of head room on the subs so I don't have to worry about bottoming out due to the X-30 and the 8033 lift.

Thanx, Bill
post #214 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by thsmith View Post

Bill, can you provide a link to more information on the X-30?

It is no longer in production. It was made by Paradigm Speaker co. Google it and you will find some info out there about it.

Bill
post #215 of 466
i now understand why hsu has advocated nearfield placement of the mbm-12. my MFW-15 arrived today. i tried it alone and, imo, it has just as much output in the midbass region as does the mbm-12 (At my listening levels, which is not 115 dbs).

but here's the thing i've noticed so far, and i noticed it immediately: using the MFW-15 alone, the midbass is a but more ringy and not as tight and i think it's most likely because of my room. with the mbm-12 right behind my seat however, when i combine the two subs, the midbass is tighter with hardly any ring becasuse the room effect has pretty much been taken out of the equation when the mbm-12 is parked right behind my butt. haven't done any rew measurements yet with the new mfw-15, but probably will today or tomorrow.
post #216 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by union1411 View Post

i now understand why hsu has advocated nearfield placement of the mbm-12. my MFW-15 arrived today. i tried it alone and, imo, it has just as much output in the midbass region as does the mbm-12 (At my listening levels, which is not 115 dbs).

but here's the thing i've noticed so far, and i noticed it immediately: using the MFW-15 alone, the midbass is a but more ringy and not as tight and i think it's most likely because of my room. with the mbm-12 right behind my seat however, when i combine the two subs, the midbass is tighter with hardly any ring becasuse the room effect has pretty much been taken out of the equation when the mbm-12 is parked right behind my butt. haven't done any rew measurements yet with the new mfw-15, but probably will today or tomorrow.

Must be really enjoying your system
post #217 of 466
Still no measurements?
post #218 of 466
Anyone using a SVS sub with the MBM-12? I would like to add on to my dual PB12-NSDs setup.
post #219 of 466
The benefits would be there with SVS subs, just as with HSU or any other kind of sub.
post #220 of 466
Hi all,
I am looking to get advice on which to do first. Upgrade my subs, or add MBM-12's to my current system.
My dedicated HT room measures 21x14. My speakers are the Rocket RS750 (L/R) RSC200 (Center), RSS300 (Sides), RS250 (Rear). My current subwoofers are 2 Mirage BPS-400's in the front corners with the front speakers just next to them. I am not too happy with the bass output right now. Unfortunately I don't have much flexibility as to where to put the subwoofers.
My current subwoofers tend to bottom out (I think this is what is happening....a popping sound at loud passages such as explosions in a movie)
So far what I think that I want to do is to get a pair of MFW-15's to replace the BPS-400's. I am also looking at getting 1 or 2 MBM-12's to help with mid bass. I don't want to do this in one shot since I have gone nuts this year with A/V spending. (I've bought 2 - 73" DLP's, 1 - 61" DLP, 2 Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH, 1 - Onkyo 805, 1 - Onkyo 605 and I am about to upgrade my projector to an Epson 1080UB) That doesn't include any of my DirecTV expenses (receivers and multiswitches)....suffice it to say, my normally reserved wife is starting to raise an eyebrow.
So, what recommendations do you all have? I am thinking of going with 1 MBM-12 now to see if it helps. If I feel it helps, I'd get another MBM-12. I'd then do the MFW-15's down the road. The other option is to get the MFW-15's to replace my BPS-400's and do the MBM-12's later.
Also, my placement option for the MBM-12's are limited. I can only really place them next to the current subs. Current subs are in the front corners and I'd place the MBM-12's next to them. Will they offer much in that location?

I also have another question.....would the MBM-12 help my current subs from bottoming out? Meaning that if they take some of the load (50-100Hz) and let my sub do the rest (20-50Hz) would the BPS-400's be less likely to bottom out?

Thanks,
post #221 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoT View Post

Hi all,
I am looking to get advice on which to do first. Upgrade my subs, or add MBM-12's to my current system.
My dedicated HT room measures 21x14. My speakers are the Rocket RS750 (L/R) RSC200 (Center), RSS300 (Sides), RS250 (Rear). My current subwoofers are 2 Mirage BPS-400's in the front corners with the front speakers just next to them. I am not too happy with the bass output right now. Unfortunately I don't have much flexibility as to where to put the subwoofers.
My current subwoofers tend to bottom out (I think this is what is happening....a popping sound at loud passages such as explosions in a movie)
So far what I think that I want to do is to get a pair of MFW-15's to replace the BPS-400's. I am also looking at getting 1 or 2 MBM-12's to help with mid bass. I don't want to do this in one shot since I have gone nuts this year with A/V spending. (I've bought 2 - 73" DLP's, 1 - 61" DLP, 2 Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH, 1 - Onkyo 805, 1 - Onkyo 605 and I am about to upgrade my projector to an Epson 1080UB) That doesn't include any of my DirecTV expenses (receivers and multiswitches)....suffice it to say, my normally reserved wife is starting to raise an eyebrow.
So, what recommendations do you all have? I am thinking of going with 1 MBM-12 now to see if it helps. If I feel it helps, I'd get another MBM-12. I'd then do the MFW-15's down the road. The other option is to get the MFW-15's to replace my BPS-400's and do the MBM-12's later.
Also, my placement option for the MBM-12's are limited. I can only really place them next to the current subs. Current subs are in the front corners and I'd place the MBM-12's next to them. Will they offer much in that location?

I also have another question.....would the MBM-12 help my current subs from bottoming out? Meaning that if they take some of the load (50-100Hz) and let my sub do the rest (20-50Hz) would the BPS-400's be less likely to bottom out?

Thanks,

Those Rockets should give you plenty of mid bass. I would say that you have a problem with your room. You need to have your room checked and maybe your system calibrated to the room.

Bill
post #222 of 466
I have a VTF-3 MK3 with turbo (Placed on the front wall), and an MBM-12 placed nearfield.

What settings should I set my gains on both subs?
post #223 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by King_David View Post

I have a VTF-3 MK3 with turbo (Placed on the front wall), and an MBM-12 placed nearfield.

What settings should I set my gains on both subs?

Calibration Procedure

John
post #224 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by John H View Post

Calibration Procedure

John

John, thanx for answering this guy. I was looking for the very same post. How are things going for you with the new sub setup?

Bill
post #225 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

John, thanx for answering this guy. I was looking for the very same post. How are things going for you with the new sub setup?

Bill

Hello Bill,

I'm still experimenting. Right now I have the duel Conquests laid on their sides next to each other behind the listening position. Last night I moved the duel MBM-12's to the left of them.. I didn't have much time to spend with them besides getting everything calibrated and testing with the machine emerging in WOTW's

John
post #226 of 466
Well, it looks like I may have a second MBM on the way. Those of you with 2, any recommendations on how to easily insert the second? Is it better to have two up front with the mains versus two nearfield? I know when we talk about the main sub, there are those that have been able to stack them, can this be done with MBM's? Is there a benefit?

Thanks!
post #227 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

Well, it looks like I may have a second MBM on the way. Those of you with 2, any recommendations on how to easily insert the second? Is it better to have two up front with the mains versus two nearfield? I know when we talk about the main sub, there are those that have been able to stack them, can this be done with MBM's? Is there a benefit?

Thanks!

I have mine with the mains, on their side, firing forward into the room. I have my mains (Polk Monitor 10's) stacked on top with a Alurex subdude in between to isolate the mains from the MBM. More dynamic mid bass and it gives me floor bounce off the laminate flooring.

Bill
post #228 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I have mine with the mains, on their side, firing forward into the room. I have my mains (Polk Monitor 10's) stacked on top with a Alurex subdude in between to isolate the mains from the MBM. More dynamic mid bass and it gives me floor bounce off the laminate flooring.

Bill

Bill

Did you just calibrated each of them to 75dB and then tweaked the combo (both on) again to 75dB? Is your xo set to 120Hz.?

Thanks.
post #229 of 466
Second MBM (second is between couch and chair) showed today. Have started playing with it in the nearfield position. So far no localization. Bass seems to be coming from the front stage.




I have the combo level matched to the mains at 75dB. I was able to remove one filter from the eq and still get a good response.




I will try playing with moving them up front over the next couple of days, but sounds good for now.
post #230 of 466
I like I like. No delay device?
post #231 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailman View Post

I like I like. No delay device?

My eq has delay capabilities, but all three subs are within 3 feet of one another. I have not heard anything suggesting I need to add a delay. All bass seems to be coming from the front.
post #232 of 466
In the previous set-up, I was able to increase the xo to 100Hz without the MBM's becoming localized. When I tried 120Hz, the bass seemed to be coming from the back (both side directions) and not the front stage.

It is amazing how you can turn your sub system completely around and still get it to sound the same! Sorry for the bad picture of the front, but I tried to do a panorama so you could see both MBM's. It took me less than three hours to move everything, level match, measure, and get this close. I still get the same tactile feel and sound (bass from the front stage) but only the lower stuff can some times be a little localized. Looks like I just need to a little more tweaking and address a bump at 85Hz. I demoed some music (jazz and rock), Open Range, and U571. So far things sound good. There is more rumble in the couch (which is nice) with the main sub nearfield. It is going to take time and a lot of listening to see which I like better. There are trade offs with both.








post #233 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I like a lot of you have been running my MBM-12's on the LFE line with main speakers set to small. This gave a nice sharp mid for gunfights, etc. However, to me the mains were detailed in the high range but lacked life. Since the MBM's were designed to accent the mid bass, I decided to try them wired into the mains with a crossover of 50 hz on the receiver sub setting with sub + mains. Since, all of my speakers are monitor style they can support a large setting. With this setup, lots of detail and the audio seems to be more alive. Set the 3.3's (near field) to full and they souond just as good if not better in tone (always ran in MO mode). The loudness is there with mid and true sub and the tone is much improved in my estimation. My setup sounds like I'm in the local Cineplex watching the latest and greatest film. Tone and liveliness is more important to me than having loud slam with no life in the audio track.

Bill

How did you "wire" them into the mains? Did you bypass the MBM's internal amp and use the receiver/external amp for highs to drive them?
post #234 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb View Post

How did you "wire" them into the mains? Did you bypass the MBM's internal amp and use the receiver/external amp for highs to drive them?

Your MBM amp works the signal and does not use the main amp for the signal. You use the high pass "in posts" and the "output to speaker posts" to go to the mains. So you get 350 watts on the main mid bass.

Bill
post #235 of 466
In a small enough space, would an MBM-12 compliment or overpower a single STF-2?
post #236 of 466
Can someone with an MBM and a MFW-15 or multiple MFW-15's comment on how it sounds with and without the MBM? I know there was a user here with 1 MFW but they have not reported back their final thoughts on the combo.
post #237 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidag02 View Post

In a small enough space, would an MBM-12 compliment or overpower a single STF-2?

david, the MBM should not overpower an STF-2. Provided that it is level matched with the mains and the true subwoofer, then it should work very nicely!

Sincerely,
post #238 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Can someone with an MBM and a MFW-15 or multiple MFW-15's comment on how it sounds with and without the MBM? I know there was a user here with 1 MFW but they have not reported back their final thoughts on the combo.

Here you go, jmalto: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=215

We've had customers use our MBM-12 with great results on nearly all of the most well-regarded true subs < $2000 on the internet, regardless of brand.
post #239 of 466
Pete, have you ever considered adding a wireless option (like the ULS-15 uses) to the MBM-12? I'd love to have one close to my listening position, but running a physical line there from the AVR won't work in my room.
post #240 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post

Here you go, jmalto: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=215

We've had customers use our MBM-12 with great results on nearly all of the most well-regarded true subs < $2000 on the internet, regardless of brand.

Would you consider an Outlaw LFM-2 to be a true subwoofer? That would work well with a MBM-12?
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