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OFFICIAL Hsu MBM-12 thread - Page 12

post #331 of 466
What kind of EQ software is needed to spl match the mbm gain to mains if you use the mbm to extend the range on the mains?

Would a standard disk like an avia and an SPL meter be ok?

I have a small room with MASSIVE subs and am getting 2 jtr tripple 8's to run l/r with a phantom center. I was considering betting an MBM to run from about 60hz to 120hz. I would send all the signal from the fronts from 60 down to the big boys and everything from the sides from 80 down as well as all LFE content. i just want so close up punch.

Will an mbm even provide anything my 3 18" can't provide considering the jtr's need to be crossed at 100hz (pretty high)?
post #332 of 466
Just added my MBM12 to my 3.3. a couple days ago. Sounds amazing!

The 3.3 is in front left corner and MBM directly behind me. Have the receiver XO at 80hz. The 3.3 XO at 50.

I also engaged the MBM XO at 80hz and it seems to reduce localization on the MBM. Is this recommended? Anyone else tried this?

Also looking to experiment with 3.3 XO at 45hz. Curious to see how this will affect localization on the MBM.
post #333 of 466
Also wanted to recommend watching "The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor" on BD.

The bass and mid-bass especially is awesome in this movie. I have been watching movies with lots of gunfire which is awesome with the MBM, but The Mummy really shows off the MBM's ability to produce serious IMPACT and SLAM!

I found a small, loose piece of fiberglass insulation about 10 ft away from the MBM after watching this film. Yeah - maybe I had it too loud, but it was not distorting.

Anyone else have recommendations for movies with lots of mid-bass?
post #334 of 466
Schuyler,

Sounds like you're running double crossovers for the MBM lowering your effective start frequency on the MBM. That's why its less localizable, you've killed off some of the sound around 80hz.
post #335 of 466
I had dual 3.3's and dual MBM's in the past and this is the proper way to calibrate them (for those that didn't know): http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpos...9&postcount=33. I have since moved on to a Conquest with dual MFW-15's as my room is over 6000+ with 2 large openings to other parts of the house. I will say that the MBM's do add slam in the mid-bass area and a clip to try is "Open Range" the gunfight scene near the end of the movie.

Bill
post #336 of 466
I've read lots of posts detailing the setup and integration of the MBM-12 with various subs, but little information about the MBM-12 and Audyssey. Should I use the level setting procedure outlined on the HSU forum before or after using the Audyssey setup? I've read the Audyssey HOWTO on this forum.

I'm concerned that Audyssey will apply EQ settings that will mess up the manual level setting process. Without the MBM-12, my Audyssey setup currently has the speakers set to large. When I add the MBM-12, I plan on setting the AVR crossover for all the speakers to 80Hz and the sub crossover to 50Hz (LP) so the MBM-12 handles 50-80Hz.

My setup:

Onkyo TR-SX605
5 Klipsch Kg 2.5s
2 Klipsch Kg .5s
One Definitive Tech PF1500 (hope to replace with Hsu VTF-3)
One MBM-12 (on its way)
post #337 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimA View Post

I've read lots of posts detailing the setup and integration of the MBM-12 with various subs, but little information about the MBM-12 and Audyssey. Should I use the level setting procedure outlined on the HSU forum before or after using the Audyssey setup? I've read the Audyssey HOWTO on this forum.

I'm concerned that Audyssey will apply EQ settings that will mess up the manual level setting process. Without the MBM-12, my Audyssey setup currently has the speakers set to large. When I add the MBM-12, I plan on setting the AVR crossover for all the speakers to 80Hz and the sub crossover to 50Hz (LP) so the MBM-12 handles 50-80Hz.

My setup:

Onkyo TR-SX605
5 Klipsch Kg 2.5s
2 Klipsch Kg .5s
One Definitive Tech PF1500 (hope to replace with Hsu VTF-3)
One MBM-12 (on its way)

Your receiver has Audyssey 2EQ -- it will not adjust or apply correction to your subwoofer(s).

Run Audyssey and then manually calibrate your subs.
post #338 of 466
Great. Thanks.

Tim
post #339 of 466
Tim - go here for the correct way to setup a MBM and True sub:
http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpos...9&postcount=33

Bill
post #340 of 466
i've had the MBM12 for over a year now to go with my MFW15. my FR via REW is a really good house curve using the both of them. but the whole thing never felt right.

first there is the distance issue that is a nightmare to figure out with Audyssey - namely that the MBM12 is right behind my seats and the MFW15 is 7 feet away. so that created sound issues that i could never resolve - really evident when there's music with heavy bass because each bass drum kick wouldn't sound uniform. i have them calibrated correctly, just can't fix the distance issue.

the other thing though - and much more noticeable - is that while the bass became less boomy using the MBM12, it seemed to castrate the MFW15 in the area of chest slam, pant leg flapping, etc. when i run the MFW15 alone, there's more, what's the word, "oomph." i feel it more. it's not as clean as when using the MBM12 - i really need to buy a dedicated sub EQ if i go with just the MFW15 - but it just seems to hit harder and really pressurize the room in a way that doesn't happen when using the MBM12 for the midbass.

anyways, just a little rambling by me.
post #341 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by union1411 View Post

i've had the MBM12 for over a year now to go with my MFW15. my FR via REW is a really good house curve using the both of them. but the whole thing never felt right.

first there is the distance issue that is a nightmare to figure out with Audyssey - namely that the MBM12 is right behind my seats and the MFW15 is 7 feet away. so that created sound issues that i could never resolve - really evident when there's music with heavy bass because each bass drum kick wouldn't sound uniform. i have them calibrated correctly, just can't fix the distance issue.

the other thing though - and much more noticeable - is that while the bass became less boomy using the MBM12, it seemed to castrate the MFW15 in the area of chest slam, pant leg flapping, etc. when i run the MFW15 alone, there's more, what's the word, "oomph." i feel it more. it's not as clean as when using the MBM12 - i really need to buy a dedicated sub EQ if i go with just the MFW15 - but it just seems to hit harder and really pressurize the room in a way that doesn't happen when using the MBM12 for the midbass.

anyways, just a little rambling by me.

Did you setup the MBM this way: http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpos...9&postcount=33

Bill
post #342 of 466
yup. calibration was easy. timing/delay is a pain in the butt. i should head to the audyssey thread to see how to fix it, though to be honest i'm liking the sound from just the mfw15 more.

i remember one time a friend came over to watch a movie and he said what i suspected (despite having a great FR curve):the bass sounds like it comes from the ground. with just the mfw15 the sound seems to fill the entire room (pressurizing the room, hitting the chest, etc). the mdm setup is tactile without room pressurization/chest slam.

that's why i said it was as if the MFW was castrated when running it with the MBM. when watching Terminator Salvation today without the MBM, i felt the bass above me, to the side of me, in my chest, in my teeth, etc. when i watched it with the mbm, i only felt the bass in my seat. it was good clean bass but just didn't have the slam. i'm going to run REW and see what the FR looks like for the MFW15 alone. could be some weird modes going on too.
post #343 of 466
Hi

I have some questions, and i hope they aren't to stupid.

I can start with posting the relevant components in my system.

Speakers: Monitor Audio GS20
Subwoofer: 2x Elemental Designs A7s-650
Reciver: Onkyo TX-NR1007(has a max of 120hz LPF to LFE)

I have alot of deep bass, but the system is lacking(IMO) the "in-your-face" bass, i was planing on buying some bigger speakers, but i realy love the GS20's and would prefer to keep them. So would i benefit from a pair of HSU MBM-12's?

And do the MBM's "speaker level" terminals offer some sort of High pass filter(incase i want to connect them so they get signal from the speaker cables)?
And is there a way to prevent the MBM's from playing as low as 50hz?, i realy think the A7s-650 can do up to 80hz better than the MBM(incase i prefer to connect the MBM to the sub out/daisy chain with A7s-650).
And Finaly, im thinking of buying some Clark TST429 buttkickers, would they deliver the "kick" im looking for or am i better of with a pair of MBM's?

And for placement options, only place i can have them is in front with the subs and speakers.
post #344 of 466
Truls,

How large is your room and how far are you from your front speakers? ....and how loud do you like to play your system????? Any hearing deficiencies???
post #345 of 466
The room is 11x13feet(143^2), im sitting aprox 9 feet from the speakers.

Normal listening volume is 80ish db's, some bass'y moviescenes reach 110+. but i do crank it up to 120ish from time to time.

And my hearing is fine (thinking of the Trancducer?) tho sometimes i think thers something wrong, i seem to go def around women

BTW, is the MBM capable of running on 220-230v?
post #346 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truls View Post

...And do the MBM's "speaker level" terminals offer some sort of High pass filter(incase i want to connect them so they get signal from the speaker cables)?

I'm not sure I understand the question. If you are asking if the MBM-12 has High Level Inputs, then the answer is yes. There is no adjustable High Pass Filter as this unit is engineered with a built-in HPF at 50 Hz. The LPF has an adjustable response of 50-150 Hz.

And is there a way to prevent the MBM's from playing as low as 50hz?, i realy think the A7s-650 can do up to 80hz better than the MBM(incase i prefer to connect the MBM to the sub out/daisy chain with A7s-650).

You might consider an FMOD crossover.

...And for placement options, only place i can have them is in front with the subs and speakers.

Hsu recommends placing it nearfield for the lowest distortion and maximum SPL impact. Although, placing the MBM-12 up front can help prevent localization.

Nice system -- thanks for providing those links.
post #347 of 466
I'm sorry if its hard to understand me, english isn't my native language so it's alittle hard to explain sometimes:P

The ting i was wondering was if the high level inputs offer some sort of filter to prevent frequency's above 100-150 to pass on trough to the speakers, some subwoofers filters the high level signal.

Those FMODS look realy awsome! Looks realy easy to use, but only 12db/octave rollof? I also see that HSU offers some signal crossovers.

Wel the question now is more if i'm gonna bennefit from a pair of MBM's, as i wil be sitting ~9feet from them, but they wil be placed right by each front speaker. How is the soundquality they offer, wil they blend inn with the rest of the system(soundwise)?
post #348 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truls View Post

The room is 11x13feet(143^2), im sitting aprox 9 feet from the speakers.

Normal listening volume is 80ish db's, some bass'y moviescenes reach 110+. but i do crank it up to 120ish from time to time.

And my hearing is fine (thinking of the Trancducer?) tho sometimes i think thers something wrong, i seem to go def around women

BTW, is the MBM capable of running on 220-230v?

The MBM runs off of the speaker wires so it runs on whatever it receives.

What are you doing with Audyssey? I see that your receiver has this feature.

....and going deaf around some women has more to do with selective listening than bad hearing.
post #349 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truls View Post

I'm sorry if its hard to understand me, english isn't my native language so it's alittle hard to explain sometimes:P

The ting i was wondering was if the high level inputs offer some sort of filter to prevent frequency's above 100-150 to pass on trough to the speakers, some subwoofers filters the high level signal.

Those FMODS look realy awsome! Looks realy easy to use, but only 12db/octave rollof? I also see that HSU offers some signal crossovers.

If I remember correctly, you can add more than one FMOD to change the slope or even to create a bandpass filter.

Wel the question now is more if i'm gonna bennefit from a pair of MBM's, as i wil be sitting ~9feet from them, but they wil be placed right by each front speaker. How is the soundquality they offer, wil they blend inn with the rest of the system(soundwise)?

I have a pair of MBM-12s and I think they are really amazing product. I have them placed about 10 feet away. Hsu also says, near-field placement helps to cut down on reflections and gives you a more direct ratio of mid-bass sound. I had to compromise.

No need to apologize for your english.

Hope this helps.
post #350 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

The MBM runs off of the speaker wires so it runs on whatever it receives.

What are you doing with Audyssey? I see that your receiver has this feature.

....and going deaf around some women has more to do with selective listening than bad hearing.

Audyssey has done its thing on my system, properly set up by the guide on this forum. Did some minor adjustments on the crossovers and gain's after it was done.

From what you two are saying, this thing sounds like a "must have". So if it supports 220-230v I'm gonna buy a pair this summer =) And if they wont behave when they are placed with the front speakers, then maybe i can use them behind the chairs, tho i realy don't want any wires across the floor.

What is it with the addiction i got to bass after i got the A7s-650's, this is hillarious And i guess MBM's won't make that addiction any easyer to live with
post #351 of 466
Truls,

At what frequency do you have your front mains and center channel crossovered?

....and which model center channel speaker are you using?
post #352 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Truls,

At what frequency do you have your front mains and center channel crossovered?

....and which model center channel speaker are you using?

Weeel, how should i put this, the rest of the speakers are Klipsch :S I know its a tabu, but they are easyer to mount to the wall's(i had them from when i gave a damn about WAF).

The crossover is as follows.
Mains : 40hz
Sub LPF: 100hz
center: 50hz
Surrounds: 60hz

I'll post a graph from REW.


Maybe you can see from the graph why im considdering a MBM-12 or two. Thats the sub's+mains on that graph.
post #353 of 466
That 90hz dip is a problem. If you can correct that, then your mid bass should improve.

To narrow down if its a room problem or not, you'll need to do a near field measurement with REW. I'm presuming that your front right or left is next to a sub. Place your measurement mic somewhere around 2 feet in front of it (of course adjust volume) and remeasure. If the dip is still there, then you know there is something wired wrong and its not the room.

Just a thought, on your subwoofer(s) the internal crossover should be either bypassed or set at its highest setting.

Also, I'd probably change your front speakers and center channel to 60hz crossover. It may be that you're draining your speakers trying to handle lower frequencies at the expense of mid bass.
post #354 of 466
I don't need to messiure the speker with REW, but il do it after this post anyway, the room is 3.4meters(11.x feet) across, so it should make a standing wave of some sort at 93Hz. Guess thats what we see in the graph.

The internal crossover in the subs are at max and the phase is at 0, running on audyssey settings.

Gonna do a REW now and try out the 60HZ setting you recomended.

Edit: And yes, each sub is positioned by each front speaker

Edit2: The REW messiurments.

Right speaker and sub:
Attachment 174847

Left speaker and sub:
Attachment 174848

Edit3: The dip is stil there if i set the mains to 60HZ, and there is no(to me) audioable difference to 40Hz, but then it takes like 10 secs to scroll trough the menus to change the setting, and thers no music then. I can clearly see that the GS20's are working alot less @ 60Hz, so maybe il just let them stay there. Did a sweap with REW to back up that ther isn't any difference from 40 to 60, and the graf was identical(guess im in phase then).
LL
LL
post #355 of 466
So let me get this straight. I have a SVS PB12-NSD and if I were to get a MBM-12, how would the settings go. I have SVS SCS-01 fronts and rears that handle down to 60hz. SVS recommends setting the crossover on the reciever as 80hz(and they were right) and then disabling the xover switch on the PB12. Now would I have to just connect the MBM to my second sub output on my yamaha 663 (7.2) and then play with the levels on the MBM? Or would I have to mess with the reciever xover settings? or both?
post #356 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimetera413 View Post

So let me get this straight. I have a SVS PB12-NSD and if I were to get a MBM-12, how would the settings go. I have SVS SCS-01 fronts and rears that handle down to 60hz. SVS recommends setting the crossover on the reciever as 80hz(and they were right) and then disabling the xover switch on the PB12. Now would I have to just connect the MBM to my second sub output on my yamaha 663 (7.2) and then play with the levels on the MBM? Or would I have to mess with the reciever xover settings? or both?

Here you go.
post #357 of 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimetera413 View Post

So let me get this straight. I have a SVS PB12-NSD and if I were to get a MBM-12, how would the settings go. I have SVS SCS-01 fronts and rears that handle down to 60hz. SVS recommends setting the crossover on the reciever as 80hz(and they were right) and then disabling the xover switch on the PB12. Now would I have to just connect the MBM to my second sub output on my yamaha 663 (7.2) and then play with the levels on the MBM? Or would I have to mess with the reciever xover settings? or both?

Maybe the other guys should answer this, but IMO I would connect the MBM to the other sub out, set the crossover in the reciver as high as possible for the subs, sett the crossover on the PB12 to 45-50ish. Then do a normal level and phase calibration on the setup. But this is just my opinnion, i realy can't say as i don't own a unit myself.
post #358 of 466
okay, thanks for the advice guys.
post #359 of 466
Hi Truls,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truls View Post

Hi

I have some questions, and i hope they aren't to stupid.

I can start with posting the relevant components in my system.

Speakers: Monitor Audio GS20
Subwoofer: 2x Elemental Designs A7s-650
Reciver: Onkyo TX-NR1007(has a max of 120hz LPF to LFE)

I have alot of deep bass, but the system is lacking(IMO) the "in-your-face" bass, i was planing on buying some bigger speakers, but i realy love the GS20's and would prefer to keep them. So would i benefit from a pair of HSU MBM-12's?

And do the MBM's "speaker level" terminals offer some sort of High pass filter(incase i want to connect them so they get signal from the speaker cables)?
And is there a way to prevent the MBM's from playing as low as 50hz?, i realy think the A7s-650 can do up to 80hz better than the MBM(incase i prefer to connect the MBM to the sub out/daisy chain with A7s-650).
And Finaly, im thinking of buying some Clark TST429 buttkickers, would they deliver the "kick" im looking for or am i better of with a pair of MBM's?

And for placement options, only place i can have them is in front with the subs and speakers.

The crossover on the MBM amplifier is low-pass only. The MBM rolls off naturally at 50Hz (combination of electronic + acoustic rolloff). Note that if one uses the high level inputs on the MBM, intended for those with older 2-channel systems with no bass management, it would basically be used as mid/upper bass augmentation for the main speakers, and then the internal low-pass crossover on the MBM would filter out higher frequencies going to the MBM. Since you have a modern-day receiver, you simply need to feed one low level input on each MBM. When using the MBM(s), I recommend that you raise the crossover frequency on your receiver for your mains/center/surrounds to no lower than 80Hz.

I don't think there are many true subs that can handle 50-150Hz region better than two MBM's. The two MBM's have very high headroom and also give you added flexibility in terms of getting a smooth mid-bass response since they are separate modules.

It is certainly acceptable to place the MBM's next to left/right main speakers. Even better would be on the left and right hand side of the main listening position, but if that is not possible nor practical, then up front is fine.

Sincerely,
post #360 of 466
Hi dimetera,

Quote:
Originally Posted by dimetera413 View Post

So let me get this straight. I have a SVS PB12-NSD and if I were to get a MBM-12, how would the settings go. I have SVS SCS-01 fronts and rears that handle down to 60hz. SVS recommends setting the crossover on the reciever as 80hz(and they were right) and then disabling the xover switch on the PB12. Now would I have to just connect the MBM to my second sub output on my yamaha 663 (7.2) and then play with the levels on the MBM? Or would I have to mess with the reciever xover settings? or both?

Set the crossover frequency on your receiver to 80Hz for all channels. On the MBM, set the crossover switch to 'Out' (which bypasses the internal crossover on the MBM). On your true subwoofer, engage the internal crossover and set the crossover knob to ~ 50Hz.

You can connect the MBM to one sub pre-out on the receiver, and the true sub to the second sub pre-out on the receiver. Presumably each sub pre-out sends the exact same output signal, so both the MBM and the true sub will receive the same signal (the MBM will naturally roll off the lower frequencies sent to it, while the true sub crossover will roll off the higher frequencies sent to it).

On the receiver, set the subwoofer distance equal to the distance between the listening position and the MBM. Adjust the MBM volume knob so that the MBM level is in balance with the true subwoofer, and then adjust the subwoofer channel level on the receiver so that the combined MBM/true sub level is in balance with the mains.

Sincerely,
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