XFS's Black Flame Screen vs. Draper Luma 2 Gray Screen

Been wanting to write a review of my new screen and decided that today, a day after watching the super bowl, it was time to get to it. Now I got the upgrade itch around Christmas and I decided to sell my old Z2 and get the new HD1000. I also decided to try out a new screen. My old screen wasn't some DIY white wall or a cheap screen, but it wasn't a Stewark Greyhawk either. I had (actually still have) a Draper Luma 2 gray screen. It's been a nice performer. Does all the things a gray screen should, better blacks, better color saturation, and it's a very smooth screen since it's not beaded to create a boost in gain. It's actually rated at .8 gain. With the HD1000's extra brightness the whites had improved over the Z2 and the set-up looked nice. But I still had the upgrade itch.

I became interested in a painted solution and begain searching through the DIY screen section here at AVS. Well, there are all kinds of options. I began to examine my DIY abilities and question whether I could really pull any of this off, and do it well enough that it would look good. Then I stumbled on XFS and the Black Flame expanded PVC screen.

So, being in the "sounds good so let's take a chance mood," I ordered. It took a few weeks, but I eventually got my XFS Black Flame screen. I had built a black frame for it out of hardboard and painted it black (about the most my DIY abilities could handle.) With a little velcro I hung it all up on the wall. XFS Black Flame is a painted screen. The paint mixture, created for this screen, is sprayed ontop of expanded PVC (sinatra board.) or ontop of an acrylic mirror (Black Flame Light Fusion.) The screen is very light and tacks up easily. A fixed frame is nice because it looks like a giant plasma. And the painted surface is super-smooth. So far so good. Now I still had my old screen rolled up overtop so I could A/B compare images.

I started with a high ambient light situation - full daylight and I have lots of windows. Well, XFS Black Flame was slightly better than the Draper gray screen, but not by a lot. It maintained a little better brightness and color saturation. Not a huge improvement, but some. Next, I watched in a moderately dark environment with a bit of illumination in the room. Here the seperation began to really become more visible. XFS Black Flame offered slightly better blacks (and remember I'm compairing it to a gray screen,). However, color saturation and pop became apparently better. Colors really jumped off the screen. And then - the whites. WOW, bright Plasma-bright, whites. Here's where XFS Black Flame really departed from the .8 gain gray screen. It showed better whites than a white screen (had a basic Da-lite matte white screen to also compare with.) With the darkened blacks, improved color and depth, and the brilliant whites the image seemed to be a giant plasma. That's when I started to appreciate the upgrade. XFS allowed me, not a capable DIYer, to get the great DIY results that painted surfaces offer.

I had two anti-front projection friends over for the super bowl and they were finally impressed. They had both seen the HD1000 on the Draper last week and liked it (noticed the improvement over the Z2) but weren't ready to come on over from plasma and into front projection. But when we fired up the superbowl even when we had the lights on they were impressed. As the game started and we darkened the room. WOW. The colors in the Prince performance were outstanding. (BTW did it seem to anyone else that they had gotten more bandwidth on HDTV. The compression looked much better than I've seen during the season? I have digital cable.) The plasma boys were both looking differently at front projection. Considering the price of the whole set-up vs. the price of a 60" plasma that's still 25" smaller than my 85" screen, who wouldn't wonder, why spend $6000?

In summary, if you like fixed frame vs. having the hide away of a pull down screen you should take a look. Also plan on doing a black frame. It really makes all the difference and is one of the easiest ways to make your screen look better. If you already have a cheap pulldown screen or a not-so-hot DIY screen, this might be worth the look. If, however, you don't have a screen and are looking at options I REALLY think it's worth a look. If I had to qualify the improvement I'd say 25%-35% better than the Draper Luma 2 gray screen. XFS Black Flame gives you the best of a gray screen and the best of a white screen and does both of these functions better than either one can by itself.

In terms of similarly priced competition: you have screens like my Draper, which just can't give you plasma like whites. The Greywolf II which from my research seemed to introduce to much texture into the image since it is beaded to boost gain (although I've not seen it myself. I was worried about the texture many reviews here at AVS have commented about.) Or you have the Da-lite Hi-Power. Lots of plasma bright whiteness but you have to deal with the narrow viewing cone which was a major downer for me. And if you're ceiling mounted you won't be able to take advantage of the extra-gain boost since the screen is retro-reflective (shoots light back to where it came from. So If you ceiling mount the light will be reflecting mostly back up to the ceiling.) And to be fair: Silverstar, Stewart, DNP Supernova are all so dramatically more expensive it wasn't worth the thought for me. There are interesting comparisons being made, however, between XFS Black Flame and these super screen performers.

I actually forgot to mention the viewing cone of XFS Black Flame. As I moved around the room changing viewing angles there seemed to be very little if almost any viewing cone. It was certainly as wide as the Draper so no seeting problems here. The screen itself is a silver/gray that has a little sheen but is basically a matte finish. There is no gain on the top of the screen. The bright white of the expanded PVC underneath the paint reflects the strongest light (like bright whites). This is where the modest boost of gain comes in. I'd say it's a 1-1.5 gain just eye-balling it.

So, on the performance/value scale XFS Black Flame is exciting. I'd say it's worth the look and your own personal research. Customer service was good, but it's not like buying off the shelf from one of the big guys. It'll take some time but I found the whole experience to be postive. You're getting a personal service from someone who seems to really care and take pride in making the screens. Obviously, no screen is perfect for everyone. Some will really prefer a pull-down, or want to try and save a little money and DIY it, but I've been impressed with the results

XFS website:
http://www.xtreme-fusion-screens.com/

Nathan Troutman
N2T@juno.com

I did NOT do the painting so yes it was shipped complete. I received the Black Flame Expanded PVC screen painted and ready to hang. However, you can get just the paint mixture and DIY it - kind of like Goo Systems. The screen was wrapped and then rolled. It was placed inside a long hard cardboard tube, packed in styrofoam and then boxed. It was UPS proof

The frame I built was very simple. Since my screen size was only 85" I simply took a full sheet of hardboard ($7 at Home Depot) and cut out an 85" diagonal window in it. Then sprayed it with black paint. Both the screen and frame are light enough to velcro to the wall. No need to devise weight support, brackets, etc. And the velcro makes it "opps" proof because you can reposition the screen without having holes in your walls.

I got the PVC. It's a little cheaper and works under the same principles of the acrylic mirror. Although, the mirror is supposed to be even better


The painted surface is very durable - hard and smooth. Just like a good paint will really hold up on your walls this paint seems to do the same. I've cleaned it several times to remove any shipping dust, etc. and you don't have to baby it. You can clean it just like you'd clean your walls. With a good paint you can rub all you want and it'll stay on. Now, you'll certainly be able to scratch it but it's no more prone to scratches than the Draper fabric screen was. If a sharp object rubs against it you'll scratch it. I didn't inquire if you could do touch-ups with the Black Flame paint mixture if you do scratch. I'd assume you could. If you scratch a fabric screen it's there forever. So that's at least some hope of fixing the XFS screen since it is only painted. As far as kids, I don't think anything can be kid proof.


XFS recommended car wash detergent mixed with warm water just like you were going to wash your car. With a soft non-abrasive cloth you just wipe the screen. I just used a normal dish cloth. Just rub/wipe it off. Very similar cleaning steps to cleaning many kinds of regular fabric screens.


You're welcome. I'm happy to help.

I knew that was coming. I'm going to take some pics tonight and if I can get some decent ones I'll try to post tomorrow. I'm not the best photographer. I have a good digital camera but it doesn't have a lot of manual options so its hard to keep the camera from compensating and making everything look good. That's why people often comment how hard it is to judge anything from pictures. But I'm gonna try.

Photos and descriptions have been uploaded to my photo gallery here at AVS. Here's the direct link. Hope it helps.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showgall...ppuser/7562194

With the ambient light test don't forget I created THE WORST situation possible. I had a 300Watt light!! (the bulb in the HD1000 is only 280Watts) directly in front of the screen. That light hangs just to the left of my projector. Again, I never use it. I also did not try to CRANK up the HD1000. I kept it set to low bulb mode, cinema gamma, 0 brightness, 0 contrast, and Brilliant Color at +2. In Art's review of the HD1000 at projectorreviews.com he measured 650 lumens in the low bulb mode, but in high settings he was able to get 1100 lumens with a decent picture. That would've made things look a bit better. I also picked a very dark scene with almost no bright parts in the frame I took a picture off. A bright frame with lots of white would've allowed the projector to try and overpower the yellow-ish light coming from my massive light.

I did all of this for one simple reason. XFS does resist ambient light a little better than the Draper gray and a gray screen in general will resist ambient light better than a white screen and certainly better than a white painted wall. But ambient light still ruins any image period. Just a bit of light, say a 50 watt lamp, can take your contrast ratio and turn it from 2000:1 to 200:1. DNP Supernova is the best thing I've heard about for ambient light, but even that, while maintaining the image better, is certainly not ideal for making your projector look it's best. That's why I didn't do lots of ambient light tests because in the end if you're doing front projection and you want the image to look great, we all make accomodations to prevent lots of ambient light. How the screen looks in a fully darkened environment is much more important to me.

For the super bowl I velcroed a piece of poster board to my coffee table. The board sits about two feet up from the table and creates a footlight. Back in the old stage days they used candles to light the stage called a footlight. Obviously they didn't want the audience to have light shining on them, so they put up a decorative trim that blocked the light from the audience and reflected more light onto the stage. Basically I did the same thing only I'm blocking the screen from the light. I can light a whole bunch of candles and keep all of the lights off and to the people it feels like the room has some light but to the screen it's fully dark. Directional track lights, dimmers, lights that can be focused, and having a room with dark walls, carpet, etc. all help. I have a white ceiling and that reflects brightness all around the room all the time, would love to paint it, but my wife would love to kill me for doing it.

Wow, so much to respond too.

As Tiddler pointed out XFS Black Flame is in fact a gray surface with a matte finish that has an every so slight sheen to it.

Blindbartimaeus - I have incandescent lights and that's the warm yellow light you see. I also posted a thread talking about using daylight balanced bulbs to have a more white light hitting the screen. Check that thread out.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801923

Mellowman does make a very valid point. For those out there with DIY abilities you can basically create an XFS Black Flame or some other DIY mixed screen formulation yourself. And, in fact, you might actually get advice from XFS creators in doing so. It would be cheaper absolutely. I think a full sheet of Sinatra board is like $50-60. Assuming you have the equipment to spray the paint, or your feel confident enough in your rolling abilities, you can create your own. And the DIY mix for Black Flame is what Tiddler just posted. There are also a bunch of other home brews out there.

But as Tiddler noted the surface is a perfectly smooth flat finish and it does take skill to produce that.

Also for DIY you can skip the paint mixing and buy just the Black Flame paint from XFS. It is priced well. Goo systems sells 1000ml for about $157. XFS sells 1560ml for $110.

Obviously Mellowman you're a big fan of DIY. I am as well. But as KMR noted there are plenty of us out here who just can't. Most of us don't have the spraying equipment necessary, and rolling anything perfectly flat takes skills beyond me maybe not you, but way beyond me .

XFS is not a DIY alternative. It is too expensive compared to what DIY is all about. It's a commercial product. And like all commercial products it costs more than what it would cost if you Did It Yourself. But what I paid for was the time and skill it took to formulate the paint, get the various components for it, mix it, & spray it. I scanned tons of info in the DIY paint section and I was all gung-ho to go for paint. The advantages of paint vs. a fabric screen are pretty well documented from what I saw in the DIY paint forums. But painted screens are only an option for those who can make them. Until I found XFS. I live in a apartment. I don't have a workshop. Frankly, I don't have the time. If I could've made the whole thing for $80, what about the time I spent doing it? What about destroying my apartment trying to figure out where to set up a 97" sheet of sinatra board and have it flat? And what are the odds that a basically non-handy guy such as myself could do all of this well? For an extra hundred bucks I'll pay someone else to do it. I actually do know how to change the oil in my car. I pay someone else to do it for me Anyone can cook a steak. Why, then, do people pay $50 for one at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse? And then pay $10 for a baked potato?

Tiddler, I will try to get another 2 pictures showing a A/B off axis shot. But I'm almost out of room. Two pictures is about all the room I have left. I'll go take the shots now. Thanks everyone for the interest. Good discussion.

The reason I posted my review is because I'm not comparing XFS to DIY. I am in fact doing just what you suggested because I have a commercially produced Draper gray screen with a .8 gain. I've viewed and loved my draper for over a year. I took a chance to try something new because I could/didn't want to try and DIY my own painted screen. I've seen both in my home side by side. The draper in no way beats the XFS screen. It's just not an issue. Like I've said DIY if you can. Save the money. But if you 1. can't DIY for whatever reason, 2. don't have a screen. and 3. want to have a painted fixed frame screen - then XFS is an attractive solution because I've found it delivers.

I wouldn't advise owners of Drapers and Da-lites to go out and burn their screens and go buy XFS. It's not Night and Day better than the draper but it does seem to merge the pluses of a white screen with the pluses of a gray screen and for that it's a worthy option for those looking at screens.

Amen. There are lots of options. XFS is only one amoungst many.



I can't prove anything. Just like Tyrg can't prove anything with the massive screen comparison he posted here. It's all just info to help others. I've literally bought every piece of equipment I have from getting the info and opinions from people here at AVS. People have given to me. I'm only trying to do my part. I'm not an expert and I can't pretend to be a professional reviewer. I'm just offering my insight in the comparison I was able to do between my commercially produced gray screen and the XFS screen. That's it. AVS is a place for research. I advise people like, Mellowman says, to look at all options. Researching was how I found XFS in the first place.

However, I wouldn't choose for me the Draper gray screen now that I have seen XFS. That's for me. Price is always a major factor so if you get a deal hey I'd tell you to take the deal. The draper was in my home for over a year.

There's been some interest that's for sure.

I don't know if there are any other XFS owners out there, but I'd like to here from any of you with your thoughts. Even any of you DIY painters who used the Black Flame mix or the Silver Fire mix to paint your own screen. Post your impressions.

Tiddler and others. I just posted the off-axis test. Use the same link back at the top of this thread to go to my photo gallery.

And folks, don't be shy to offer friendly words of encouragement because taking these pictures is a real pain in the @#$!!!



Tiddler thanks for the silver fire link and you can see a very nice ambient light comparison right above the mix instructions.

I think this thread has kind of gotten off track a bit and has become a discussion of DIY screens vs. buying a screen. Not that this isn't interesting but I wanted to try and sum up the last bunch of posts and move on.

DIY is a great option for those willing and able to commit the time and effort to make a screen for themselves.

However, I wrote this review for people who either have or are looking to buy a screen - not make their own. Everyone here knows about DIY. We either have no interest or have decided it's not for us and we have bought or are planning to buy a screen from a company that has manufactured a screen for us. That's why we read and post here in the Screens forum rather than the DIY forum. Telling screen owners or prospective buyers they're spending too much money buying a screen rather than making their own isn't helpful to us. We kind of already understand that, but for whatever reason, we have or want manufactured screens we paid or are planning to pay for.

If you haven't thought about DIY there's a whole separate forum for it. Lots of info.

Now, moving on.

In terms of screens you buy, XFS Black Flame is not expensive. Stewart owners feel free to chime in with the price of a Firehawk which is in the $1000 range I believe and DNP Supernova is way up there as well. In comparison XFS is well. . . cheap. But this is unimportant since myself, and many others, can't afford the super high priced models. The screens most people are looking to buy or have are in a more manageable price range. Let's say anywhere from $100-$600. In this range there are lots of options. XFS actually falls in the moderate to moderately low-priced part of this range. To name a few options: you have the inexpensive Monoprice screens, Draper screens, Da-Lite with their various options (Hi-power, HCMW to name two big ones.) Elite screens, Greywolf II, & Carada fixed frames. This is where XFS fits in and this is what I'm comparing XFS to. Let's keep the discussion about these manufactured screens because that's what my review is comparing. These were the screens I was looking at when I found XFS. Just before I had almost decided to buy a Da-lite Hi power.

The Draper model I believe I bought for around $150-$200 a year ago. As my review summarizes I feel XFS beats it. Like I said 25%-35% better. I can't prove this to anybody, but I've posted pictures and in the end it is only my opinion. I can only tell you that I've been impressed. So here's some pluses and minuses as I see them:

XFS Black Flame
It's fixed frame so you can't pull it up or down that's either a plus or a minus depending on what you're looking for.

I believe currently the max size is 97". For all of you massive 120" theater lovers Black Flame might get crossed out because of this. Hopefully XFS will support larger screen sizes in the future so we can all go BIG.

You do need to frame it for it to look best. Carada for example is already framed (it's also more expensive as well.)

Fixed frame I feel looks nicer on the wall especially framed. It also sits perfectly flat so no waves in the screen but this is a personal preference.

XFS has a competitive price but it is "a buy from the company product." Mine was made to order and took about two weeks to get.

Hanging on the wall was easy with velcro.

Performance - this is what made me want to write the review. The performance is very nice. I really can't wait for others to compare it to other screens in this price range. I'd love to see a Da-lite Hi-Power to XFS comparison since that was the screen I almost went with. The viewing cone of the Hi-power is what held me back. Like my draper the XFS screen doesn't have much if any viewing cone.

Here's a review of my decision process. All of this info I found from this forum through postings of others:

Da-lite Hi-power - lots of good reviews. A bit more money than XFS. Lots of burn your eyes off plasma power. I was worried about the narrow viewing cone and cleaning. It doesn't do much to boost black levels but the power makes things so much brighter it can make you think it's improved. People always forget that contrast ratio is not just black it's the difference between black and white. If the screen is brighter and the blacks stay the same the contrast ratio is greater. The viewing cone also will reject side shining ambient light better than a flat screen. It is a retro-reflective screen so if you're ceiling mounting you won't get as much of a gain boost. But there are many satisfied Hi-power owners out there.

Greywolf II - A bit more money than XFS. Also many satisfied owners out there. Like the XFS screen greywolf tries to give you everything - bright whites, darker blacks, and improved color performance. I got excited and read a lot about it here. I was really worried about the texture of the screen being noticeable. Several AVS members have commented about it. Also, like the Hi-power, it too is a retro-reflective screen. Not as ideal for ceiling mounting.

Goo Systems - To much DIY for me.

Da-lite HCMW - I didn't think it was going to be too different than my current Draper gray. But lots of info here about it. Everyone should read Tryg's comprehensive screen comparisons. LOTS of info.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=262466

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773065

Carada - too expensive.

Draper - already had it.

Elite - seemed to be just like Draper.

Monoprice - too basic, but I liked the price.

Personally for me I've never liked a matte white screen. I had that about 4 years ago. I've always preferred the color improvement, black improvement, & better ambient light rejection of a gray screen. The trade-off was always losing white brightness. If Hi-Power didn't have a viewing cone I might've gone that way. If Greywolf II was perfectly smooth and didn't have texture I WOULD have gone that way. But now there is a viable third option to consider. XFS. It has it's plues and minuses too. When buying a screen weighing the pluses and minuses is the decision. I hope all of this information about what I had to decide helps the rest of you. There is no RIGHT answer. And unfortunately, we have to rely on others for input because we can't look at all of these options in our own homes for ourselves.

I seriously hope this thread will be a constructive discussion of screen options and comparisons. I'd like to see more XFS owners post their own thoughts. I'd really love to see others take the opportunity to do their own comparative tests. For many this might be the first they've even heard about XFS. From what I've seen I can safely say it is a legitimate screen option that offers its own performance pluses and should make any screen buying decision just that much harder. But, hey, at least there are some great choices that won't break the bank.

Thanks for the update. This would make XFS even more accessable. For me I wanted fixed frame and my max size was 85" so the standard 97" size was perfect. But it's good to see there are now more options. I just dropped by the site and also saw a fully framed version is also available if you really want to skip any and all DIY and (like a Carada screen) have a framed and ready to hang screen shipped to you.

Also for framing you can as a very basic solution just paint your wall around the mounted XFS screen black. A nice three inch border is more than enough. Not exactly professional but it's simple. For a smaller screen like my 85" one. Cutting an 85" window out of the center of a full sheet of hardboard turned out nice. Luckily I did it right on the first try. It did take a few hours so being able to buy something that is already framed and ready to go is nice. Hang and drool