The Official: Denon 3808ci & 4308ci HDMI 1.3 thread. - Page 2

dude if you can get an avr to last that long you must also not be planning on living that long --look what has happened in the last 2 years alone--I had a 3805 that I bought 2 years ago (that I really liked before I went with separates) and it became obsolete within a year (no hdmi at all, not even to mention nothin' bout no new-fangled audio formats). stuff is changing fast--it seems very reasonable, like buying a real nice 2-ch audiophile amp, that spending the money would get you 8-10 years out of it but the avr market just moves so fast that I couldn;t forsee keeping ANY avr for more than 2-3 years--av tech is just moving ahead so quickly--and people do seem to feel the need to keep up with the Jones'--as long as it involves an mp3 player or plasma set and not a good qulity audio format such as sacd grumble grumble

I just don't see how denon (upcoming criticism irony duly noted given my forum name) gets away with their pricing strategy--yes it is nice that they can keep up with the technology but I just can't see charging what they do for these boxes--within 2 years you'll be able to buy a whole 7 channel levinson/wilson maxx setup what one of their 8o-wX7 avr's is gonna run...also agreed this multi zone stuff has been electronically integrated way before its time. Maybe in 5 years when more distributed audio is worked into houses but I just don't see or hear that many people using the multi zone stuff to warrant the extra expense that, if eliminated, could lead to better mass-appeal.

I bought in 4 years ago both A/V and computers. This is the year to upgrade since that time where significant changes have occured. A/V HDMI 1.3 and 1080p, DTS MA and DD True HD and PCM as well as some other less significant but useful benefits like wireless networking for receivers, etc. On the PC side, dual core, windows Vista (in time) and HD Disc Drives. Really for the last 3 or 4 years the changes have been building, but this into next year IMO is the time to buy in and take advantage of significant changes that will carry you and be "future proof" for maybe another 3-4 years. I have been waiting this curve out and middle to late in this year is the time.

Don't know what's wrong with you folks. I'm about to replace my 8-year-old DVD player and 7-year-old receiver, and I feel vaguely embarrassed by such extravagence.

Only because DVD-Audio and SACD are finally mature enough to buy into, mind. I'll also be looking at adding some HD compatibility in case I decide to get an HD display some time in the next 7 years...

Does anyone really expect to do DTS-HDMA or TrueHD over bitstream utilizing HDMI 1.3? Except for that, the only thing the 3808CI is going to offer that the 4306 doesn't is one extra HDMI port...

Mostly I'm on the fence right now between more instant gratification with a refurb 4306 or waiting for the 3808CI... Anyone see any other reasons for me to wait other than not dealing with refurb woes?

I only bring up refurb because that seems about the only way possible to get a silver 4306 with a warranty these days...

It seems like you are really an optimistic kind of a person, which is super. I assume by mature, you mean it in the sense of a person being "mature" or, more pejoratively, "old" "on llife support" or most appropriately, "hastily nearing expiration date." I am right there with you lamenting the fact thet they never caught on--I think the hi fi world has been done a huge disservice by the mp3 toting teeni boppers that have essentially killed the high end audio formats. Hey, at least we still have vinyl...

as for what is wrong with us, we are obsessed to put it simply. probably something our mothers did to us by not loving us enough when we were little or something like that. if you don't have the upgrade bug as badly as most of us then please sir, cherish your mental health as well as the relative fatness of your wallet.

While its hard to say how long I will have my next receiver if I start making some really good money? I have had my current receiver for going on 10 years and I can see my next one lasting at least that amount of time.

I will be selecting a number of models to do some critical listening to around the end of the year. And I do plan on keeping the Denon AVR-4308ci and AVR-3808ci on that list. I will be looking at both receivers top to bottom and see if I can justify spending the $2500 on the 4306? I would do that with any other brand when spending over $2k on a receiver as it might as well be a flagship model. With the low wages I am making $2k is alot of money to be spending and it takes some time to save up. It is my intention to upgrade well over my current Yamaha RX-V995 that cost around $1k 10 years ago.

My current main receiver list:
Denon AVR-4308ci $2,499
Denon AVR-3808ci $1,599
Pioneer Elite ? $?
Marantz ? $?

Other possible considerations:
Yamaha ?
Adcom ?

Doubtful list:
Sherwood Newcastle R-972
Onkyo

No List:
Sony Receivers !

I would have liked to buy a Denon Blu-ray player but since they are not offering anything. I will end up with a Panasonic, Sony or Pioneer Elite Blu-ray.

One reciever you will not see in my ht is the Sony TA-DA9100ES 9.1 channel so called high-end AV receiver. I would not pay $6,100 for that and only get 2 HDMI inputs and one HDMI out! One thing I will give the TA-DA9100ES over the current STR-DA7100ES/B is the 9100 has a nice big toroidal transformer and some big capacitors and the 7100 looks like a child's toy when you compare there construction.



I wouldn't exactly say DVD-A or SACD has matured, more like died a horrible long death. I invested in both formats and nether one really took off very well.

Anyone know yet if the watts per channel are going to be the same as the current pre-hdmi 1.3 models?

[quote=Dave Moritz]

My current main receiver list:
Denon AVR-4308ci $2,499
Denon AVR-3808ci $1,599
Pioneer Elite ? $?
Marantz ? $?

Other possible considerations:
Yamaha ?
Adcom ?

Doubtful list:
Sherwood Newcastle R-972
Onkyo

No List:
Sony Receivers !

I would have liked to buy a Denon Blu-ray player but since they are not offering anything. I will end up with a Panasonic, Sony or Pioneer Elite Blu-ray.

QUOTE]

You seem to have developed some great ideas--I didn't mean my previous answer to sound flippant--it is very hard to keep up with technology at the pace it is going and even more expensive!

A few more considerations--in this price range you're looking at you may also want to consider rotel and arcam--great sounding receivers although the rotel may or may not have the video features you ar elooking for--adcom would also fit into this category.

You will end up facing the same thing teh separates crowd faces--the best sounding receivers are often the ones that have the least video features and lacking the newest surround formats (rotel, adcom, and potentially arcam are likely to be in this category) whereas denon and harman kardon and and marantz (maybe yamaha) are often a good balance. My personal view is that pioneer elite belongs down with sony in terms of sound and amplifier quality but that's just me.

If I were you I would at least add harman kardon (check out jr.com prices--for some reason are really low consistently), adcom, arcam, and rotel to your list of receiver potentials with the ARCAM consistently rates as being almost as good as separates.

I would also add to your list outlaw separates. The next model of the 990 preamp can't be far off (not because I am an outlaw insider but because it still has dvi connections and no new audio format decoding).

My personal short list in order of preference would be Arcam 300, tie for rotel and adcom receivers, outlaw separates, harman-kardon 745, denon 3808/4308. You may also want to check audiogon for a deal on a sunfire series III receiver--that would really be sweet but also more expensive.

Those would be the only ones I would seriously consider but my bias is audio over video--I don't really use my preamp for HD video switching because I don;t really feel I need anything else getting in the signal path...

I also would wait a while on the hd player--I am sure Denon is chomping at the bit waiting for a sign in the format war either that or in the process of making a universal hd player as we speak--that will be the one that I buy too!

Hey Denophile,

I had no problem with your response in anyway and did not find it disrespectful in anyway. I agree with you completely that its is very difficult to keep up with technology and all the changes that seem to make features obsolete in a short amount of time.

I have based my ht upgrades around both HD formats (Blu-ray and HD-DVD), and both lossless audio formats as well (DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby True HD). Quality of video and audio are very important to me as I do have a small selection SACD's and DVD-A discs and a growing HD collection.

While I agree that the high end models do not tend to include the newest formats and tend to keep it simple. My plans and budget make it very difficult to choose certain brands like McIntosh, Krell, Adcom, Sunfire, Meridian and Arcam.

I have looked at Harman Kardon before but it just did not fit what I was looking for. I do however like the high current amplifiers that HK uses. I feel alot of the mass market receivers have come along way and provide a great amount of performance for the money.

I really like what Adcom brings to the table and it's a very nice audiophile piece. The Arcam is a very nice piece as well but it lacks the HDMI inputs that I want. I have chosen the receiver route because it is easier for me to save up to a receiver than buying a high end preamp and a seperate power amp. The Outlaw looks like a nice piece but it will need the newer features and more power. I do not think that 65 watts per channel is enough to be honest with you. Currently I believe that the receiver option is the best solution as I can always add a power amp later on. This would give me the functionality I want with a higher quality amp section later on, and more power if I choose to go that route.

The Outlaw like you said has DVI but I have no need for DVI inputs. And without HDMI I find it very difficult to place it on my list of possibles. This may change if Outlaw offers a model with HDMI and lossless decoding, it may have a chance to get on the list.

Another thing that affects my purchase is that I do not have a credit card so I have to save up cash. And I do not trust places online as it is easier to deal with a local retailer if I have problems instead of spending money to ship something multiple times in a worse case scenario.

My choices if I had the Money and did not want the newest surround formats:
1. Adcom GTP-870HD Receiver
2. McIntosh MX-134 Preamp
3. Denon AVR-5805CI Receiver

The Sony receivers I find to be horrible IMHO and the majority of there line up had dropped the use of class D amplifiers. And I have not heard anything good about the Faroudja scaler they are using. IMHO Pioneer Elite is alot better than Sony and has been getting better and better over the years. Sunfire makes a very good product but for reasons explained above that places the Sunfire off the list as well.

I figure I will need 3 HDMI connections for HD-DVD, Blu-ray and Digital Cable. So if I can get something with 4 inputs that will give me an extra input for something else down the road.

So here is my revised list:
Denon AVR-4308ci $2,499
Denon AVR-3808ci $1,599
Pioneer Elite ? $?
Marantz ? $?
Adcom ?

Other possible considerations:
Yamaha
Arcam
Sunfire

Doubtful list:
Sherwood Newcastle R-972
Onkyo

No List:
Sony Receivers !
Kenwood
JVC

Don't feel bad. I'm just now looking to replace my Pioneer receiver which was the first generation of Dolby Digital to be offered as well as my first generation DVD player that cost around $700 new in '97 I think. I however did go with a HDTV this year and have been enjoying HD-DVD movies on my Xbox, but only in the ancient DD 5.1.

I've waited a long time to replace my old 3803.

These 3808 and 4308 are good candidates for sure.

Does anyone anticipate the 4xxx level denon receivers to have a better amp and thus sound better compared to the 3xxx level receivers? Has anyone compared the current two levels?

I agree with Dave, as well.

My current receiver is the Denon ACR-5700. I bought it in 1999 - 8 years ago!!

Both the 3808 and 4308 have the features I have been waiting for and either could possibly replace my trusty old 5700.

For $2.5K I would expect that whatever I get will at least last another 8 years.

I'm looking to replace my Denon AVR 3300, which still sounds good. Might take the plunge this summer on the 3808 for the hdmi switching primarily.

if I recall correctly the 48 series has toroidal power supplies and the 43 (and certainly the 38) do not. I als think the 43 has more independent power supplies than the 38 at least that was the case with the 3805 and 4306. I would not, however, anticipate a vast difference in the sould quality or quantit betwen the two-pehaps a smidge better dynamics with the 43. I would say the feature differences would be the best way to decide..

For these prices, would I be better off getting a cheaper receiver with all the bells and whistles and buying a really good amp? I'm beginning to think its not worth chasing the rabbit. I could keep the amp a long time and replace the receiver as technology changes.

Such as Adcom GFA-7605 and a AVR-2307CI ?

I can not wait for Denon to actually list there new receivers on there website. I emailed Denon with the new model numbers asking for some information. The reply basically said those models did not currently exist and did not say when or if they where being released. I hope that we get more information soon as I would love to see the specifications and what options both models will have.

I am also hoping that the 4xxx model has toroidal power supply and some good quality amps. If it does not and both formats software will not allow the receiver to decode DTS-HD or Dolby True HD internally I may not buy a newer receiver, I will have to wait and see what happens.

But the problem with getting a cheaper receiver is that they will use lower quality DACs so it will not sound as good. I don't need all the zone 2/3, ethernet to computer or music box, or even the internet radio. Even the internal amp will not be utilize since I have an external amp I will use, but the pre/pro market is very slow on the HDMI implementation. So I have no choice, but to look into a AVR as a pre/pro and I'm hoping the 4306CI will fill the void for 2-5 years. I realized also that by getting the 4306, I'm paying for a lot things that I won't use, but I hope/believe that it may have an edge over the sound of the 3808 due to a potentially better DACs(?? remains to be seen or heard) or it may just be a waste of $$. Or if the 3808 sound just as good or close to it, I may get that. I do very much like the (4) HDMI inputs.

Hey Vdmai,

You might want to look at a Adcom GFR-700HD especially if Blu-ray and HD-DVD titles have to have there lossless tracks decoded in the player internally. Because of the advanced disc that will not allow decoding to be done in the receiver. I hope that they keep using the basic Blu-rays so the decoding can be done in the receiver, otherwise there is little reason to wait for the newer model receivers that will come out at the end of this year and next year.

http://www.adcom.com/prod/shopdispla...sp?prodid=1155

Oh and you might want to check out Marantz as well.

http://us.marantz.com/Products/1875.asp

Hi Dave,

Thanks, I've never been a fan of Adcom and it only has 2 HDMI inputs so that won't do. The Marantz, I've read some inconsistencies with 1080P switching so that made me uncomfortable. I've read quite a bit about HDMI so I do understand about different versions and it capabilities so I do realized that I won't need 1.3 as long as the decoding is done by the player. I almost wanted to try the Pionner 84, but disappointed to read about its LF problems. I really need to get 4HDMI inputs or I may have just go with the current 4306.

Anyhow, thank you for your input.

Hey vdmai would like to know where you heard that the Marantz has inconsistencies with its 1080p switching. I would like to know what kind of problems it might have because Marantz is on my list of receivers to consider. I have not checked out any of the receivers in great detail yet and will not do so until the end of the year, after I buy my blu-ray player.

I am hoping that Adcom offers at least 4 HDMI inputs and 7.1 in its next models.

These are my considerations to replace my old Yamaha RX-V995:

Denon AVR-3806 (2 HDMI In)
Denon AVR-4306 (3 HDMI In)
Denon AVR-4806CI (3 HDMI In) Cost of this model makes it a not likely but would still want to own.
Denon 3808ci (4 HDMI In)
Denon 4308ci (4 HDMI In)
Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS (3 HDMI In)
Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi (4 HDMI In)
Marantz SR7001 (4 HDMI In)
Marantz SR8001 (4 HDMI In)
Adcom GFR-700HD (2 HDMI In) Even with 2 HDMI inputs the only things that would kill this model for me is the 5.1

While 2 HDMI inputs are minimum I would prefer to have 4 HDMI inputs to handle future needs. And money is tight so its hard to tell what I will end up with but I want to end up with something that is really good.

I have a 3806 upstairs and like it, though I don't use the HDMI in that system.

The basement has hdmi 1.2 capabilities and 1080p...so I probably want HDMI 1.3 for the audio capabilities on the assumption that someday I'll go with some form of disc based hd format, and will want the receiver to do the decoding. I'll need at least 4 hdmi inputs.

So the 3808 looks like a good candidate. Anybody have any educated guesses what we will give up to use a 2808?

The lower end Sherwood Newcastle is not due until August; but should have 4 hdmi for $1000. I have seen some people dismiss these units here...I wonder why. Quality perhaps?

Marantz could be an option, but I saw some board complains about the video noise being high on current units. I might look at Yamaha, but looks expensive on the features provided. Plus not 1.3.

"I have seen some people dismiss these units here."

vapourware concerns, when a manufacturer displays a non functioning empty chasis at a trade show you can never put too much stock in what they have to say

For anyone interested in seeing this HDMI power point presentation.

http://www.hdmi.com/press/press_kit.asp

Thanks Dave that was interesting.

Hopefully HDMI 1.3 is stable and we don't have the HDCP issues we had with cable boxes when it first started rolling out. I'm a little concerned with the the jumble of new features and technologies that it will actually roll out that smooth. Something tells me not.

I think the days of plugging it and it just works are long gone. Maybe Apple will step in and build a receiver eh?

I'm convinced its the encryption requirements that are the big hang ups....in the long run, Steve Jobs is right, content producers should just abandon DRM, its too easy to circumvent as it is. People are just burning copies of CDs/DVDs if they're so inclined.

Why bother to encrypt the presentation layer?...its just hurting adoption rates by manufacturers and consumers.

Denon says in a email received today that new models will come out this summer!

I got an email, too... it says no silver. Looks like the 4306S from Darkmart is back in the lead. Hopefully I don't get burned by them...

Hi Dave - from reading the Marantz SR4001/5001/7001/8001 thread here.

Thanks VDMAI I will try and track it down. I want to find out how much of an issue it might be as I like the specifications and the amp section is really beefy. But I have some time and Marantz might correct what every problems they are experiencing with there current models.

This is a huge deal for me as many receivers are not compatible with my SA 8300HD cable box/DVR. I think the issue has to do with the cable box not allowing HDMI pass through. I'm more than eager to upgrade my old receiver, and I think the 3808 might be the answer, but if it won't work with HDMI from my cable box it's dead in the water.