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The Official: Denon 3808ci & 4308ci HDMI 1.3 thread. - Page 14

post #391 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcdayton View Post

I've noticed quite a few derogatory comments about DCDi.


I'm also very interested to know what's wrong with DCDI video chips though.
post #392 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avliner View Post

I'm also very interested to know what's wrong with DCDI video chips though.

I will...Third that
post #393 of 2596
fourth that
post #394 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avliner View Post

I'm also very interested to know what's wrong with DCDI video chips though.

I'm no expert by any means, but from what I've read and heard, the DCDi chips have problems with macroblocking. I had thought the problems had been fixed with new implementations of the chip, but perhaps not. Even if Denon chooses to use DCDi, my guess is that it would be a new revision or new chip completely and might not have the same issues. Only time will tell.
post #395 of 2596
DCDi throws away some chroma information and, in association with some displays, increases macroblocking. Neither of these are good things.

--Galvin
post #396 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avliner View Post

When I bought my Oppo DVD player, DCDi was considered among the top of the line...what's happened in the last 2 years?

DCDi hasn't been considered "top of the line" for years. However, Faroudja has held the price/performance crown for a long time. Arguably, they still do.

Around this time last year, you had to spend $3000+ to get a DVD player with Silicon Optix HQV processing. Last fall, Denon released the first <$2000 DVD players with technology -- the $1500 3930ci and $850 2930ci (ReonVX) -- that are now considered the best DVD players on the market, at any cost. Both deliver superior output compared to the Faroudja solutions, but also cost 4-7x as much. Faroudja is arguably still the performance champ when it comes to 1080p DVD players costing $250 or less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcdayton View Post

I've noticed quite a few derogatory comments about DCDi.

Can someone summarize the differences between the Reon and DCDi?

I'm also very interested to know what's wrong with DCDI video chips though.

Genesis (Faroudja) never really re-engineered their architecture for high-definition signals and 1080p displays. Instead, they've adapted older SD designs for HD. They've done this to preserve backward compatibility with older solutions, as a means to minimize implementation costs. In contrast, the ReonVX is a much newer architecture built from the ground-up for high-definition displays.

Genesis' DCDi solutions in the market today do multi-field, per-pixel, motion adaptive video deinterlace for 480i signals, but not for 1080i signals. Further, Faroudja solutions in the market today cannot reliably detect film-sources in a 1080i signal, as necessary to perform inverse telecine to reconstruct the full resolution of 1080p24 content. In addition, Faroudja-based solutions apply certain filters -- that cannot be defeated or disabled -- which eliminate chroma information and introduce some degree of macroblocking into the picture signal.

Faroudja DCDi is not really "bad" as much as it is mediocre. If your HDTV is three or four years old, then you will probably see some improvement with DCDi. If you have a newer a $1000-$1500 LCD -- which commonly use DCDi -- then you probably won't see much difference. However, if you have a higher-end display, then DCDi may degrade your picture quality rather than improving it.

In contrast, Silicon Optix HQV processing is the same technology used in $10,000+ Runco displays. When properly implemented, its output quality exceeds that of the video processors in just about every consumer plasma, LCD, DLP, and SXRD display on the market today. If your TV has 1:1 pixel mapping (as necessary to bypass the built-in scaler), then Silicon Optix HQV -- if properly implemented -- can significantly improve the quality of your picture on all sources.

Denon said at CES that its highest-end receivers and processors will use Silicon Optix HQV. The only question right now is how much you will have to spend on a Denon A/V processor to achieve comparable video quality to the $1699 Onkyo TX-SR875. Note Onkyo is using DCDi processing in their lower-end models, including the TX-SR605 model ($599 MSRP), which J&R is taking preorders for at $399.
post #397 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Faroudja DCDi is not really "bad" as much as it is mediocre. If your HDTV is three or four years old, then you will probably see some improvement with DCDi. If you have a newer a $1000-$1500 LCD -- which commonly use DCDi -- then you probably won't see much difference. However, if you have a higher-end display, then DCDi may degrade your picture quality rather than improving it. In contrast, Silicon Optix HQV processing is the same technology used in $10,000+ Runco displays; when properly implemented, its output quality exceeds that of the video processors in just about every consumer plasma, LCD, DLP, and SXRD display on the market today. If your TV has 1:1 pixel mapping (as necessary to bypass the built-in scaler), then Silicon Optix HQV -- if properly implemented -- can significantly improve the quality of your picture on all sources.

Denon said at CES that its highest-end receivers and processors will use Silicon Optix HQV. The only question right now is how much you will have to spend on a Denon A/V processor to achieve comparable video quality to the $1699 Onkyo TX-SR875. Note Onkyo is using the DCDi processing in their lower-end models, including the TX-SR605 model ($599 MSRP), which J&R is taking preorders for at $399.

hmm, I will wait to see the final specs on the 3808; but, if nothing changes, and they stick with the DCDi, I do believe that you just sold me the Onkyo 875! lol..

great info, thanks!
post #398 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by palehorse View Post

hmm, I will wait to see the final specs on the 3808; but, if nothing changes, and they stick with the DCDi, I do believe that you just sold me the Onkyo 875! lol..

I wouldn't get too excited until we see the quality of Onkyo's implementation.

Video processors -- like video cards in PCs -- depend on firmware and drivers to work. Silicon Optix supplies source code, but ultimately, it is up to Onkyo and Denon to properly integrate that code with the platform used by their receiver. Even the highest end nVidia or ATI graphics card won't perform well if paired with a poor driver, and the same is true here to some extent.

We also have no idea how the Onkyos and Denons will compare in terms of audio performance.
post #399 of 2596
I still am leaning towards Denon (mainly because I really had my heart set on getting one..) I will really be disappointed with them if they let me down with their new product (ESPECIALLY since they skipped the 3807!!!!) I want the best bang for the buck... We will just have to wait and see....
post #400 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

I wouldn't get too excited until we see the quality of Onkyo's implementation.

Video processors -- like video cards in PCs -- depend on firmware and drivers to work. Silicon Optix supplies source code, but ultimately, it is up to Onkyo and Denon to properly integrate that code with the platform used by their receiver. Even the highest end nVidia or ATI graphics card won't perform well if paired with a poor driver, and the same is true here to some extent.
....


This is very true. The chip itself does not make a great image by itself. One only has to check out the discussions over at the VP forum to see that it usually takes several firmware iterations to really "let it shine" ... and those VP manufacturers "only" have to concentrate on video. What I am bit worried about is that those receiver manufacturers may still mainly focus on audio since video is a fairly new terrain for most. I would love to be proven wrong here.
____
Axel
post #401 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babel_Fish View Post

...(ESPECIALLY since they skipped the 3807!!!!)...(

That's the Denon way to do things though.

I bet by next year (right after the CES' 08), they'll launch a new mid-class AVR - most probably the 2809 - and a couple of months later their new range will follow (most probably bearing the XX10 ID). Let's wait and see...
post #402 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by palehorse View Post

Denon 3808ci @ $1599 SRP
PRO: ethernet
PRO: improved GUI
CON: Faroudja DCDi Video Processing

Onkyo TX-SR875 @ $1699 SRP
PRO: HQV Reon-VX Video Processing
PRO: Burr-Brown 192/24-bit DAC on all Channels (TI Architecture (PCM1796))
CON: no ethernet
CON: unknown OSD

This is what I'm mulling over at the moment... feel free to add to the list if you can think of any more PRO/CON's with these two models. I'm going to buy a new receiver this Fall, and the decision is killin me! lol... The big problem I have with Denon's new mid system is the Faroudja chip.... yuck... but will the ethernet and GUI make up for it?

uhg... im too addicted to this.

Features are important but not as important as the sound of receiver. I heard denon sounded way better compared to onkyo.
post #403 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoctor View Post

Features are important but not as important as the sound of receiver. I heard denon sounded way better compared to onkyo.

Given all of the new processors and decoders in play here, as well as the new HD formats, I think it's impossible to say that one brand "sounds better" than another, with neither device on the market to test.

I'll answer my own dilemma here: I guess we'll wait and see! lol..
post #404 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

DCDi hasn't been considered "top of the line" for years. However, Faroudja has held the price/performance crown for a long time. Arguably, they still do.

Around this time last year, you had to spend $3000+ to get a DVD player with Silicon Optix HQV processing. Last fall, Denon released the first <$2000 DVD players with technology -- the $1500 3930ci and $850 2930ci (ReonVX) -- that are now considered the best DVD players on the market, at any cost. Both deliver superior output compared to the Faroudja solutions, but also cost 4-7x as much. Faroudja is arguably still the performance champ when it comes to 1080p DVD players costing $250 or less.

Genesis (Faroudja) never really re-engineered their architecture for high-definition signals and 1080p displays. Instead, they've adapted older SD designs for HD. They've done this to preserve backward compatibility with older solutions, as a means to minimize implementation costs. In contrast, the ReonVX is a much newer architecture built from the ground-up for high-definition displays.

Genesis' DCDi solutions in the market today do multi-field, per-pixel, motion adaptive video deinterlace for 480i signals, but not for 1080i signals. Further, Faroudja solutions in the market today cannot reliably detect film-sources in a 1080i signal, as necessary to perform inverse telecine to reconstruct the full resolution of 1080p24 content. In addition, Faroudja-based solutions apply certain filters -- that cannot be defeated or disabled -- which eliminate chroma information and introduce some degree of macroblocking into the picture signal.

Faroudja DCDi is not really "bad" as much as it is mediocre. If your HDTV is three or four years old, then you will probably see some improvement with DCDi. If you have a newer a $1000-$1500 LCD -- which commonly use DCDi -- then you probably won't see much difference. However, if you have a higher-end display, then DCDi may degrade your picture quality rather than improving it.

In contrast, Silicon Optix HQV processing is the same technology used in $10,000+ Runco displays. When properly implemented, its output quality exceeds that of the video processors in just about every consumer plasma, LCD, DLP, and SXRD display on the market today. If your TV has 1:1 pixel mapping (as necessary to bypass the built-in scaler), then Silicon Optix HQV -- if properly implemented -- can significantly improve the quality of your picture on all sources.

Denon said at CES that its highest-end receivers and processors will use Silicon Optix HQV. The only question right now is how much you will have to spend on a Denon A/V processor to achieve comparable video quality to the $1699 Onkyo TX-SR875. Note Onkyo is using DCDi processing in their lower-end models, including the TX-SR605 model ($599 MSRP), which J&R is taking preorders for at $399.

bfdtv, thanks for taking the time to not only answer the Farudja DCDi quality question, but also putting the better alternatives in perspective to once's gear and expectations. I think the latter is oftentimes overlooked in debating 'what's best' when what really should be discussed is 'what's best for *me*'. Very illuminating!
post #405 of 2596
I am thinking about the 3808ci for my 60" SXRD Sony. If I already have a Denon 2930ci and the only other things going into it are a PS3, Xbox Elite and a HD DVR... does it really matter if it has a Faroudja DCDi? Would I be using it?
post #406 of 2596
Question about the denon 3808 with a DCDi processor and Toshiba XA2 which has a ReonVX processor. Would the denon's dcdi degrade the quality coming out of the toshiba?
post #407 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkgriffin View Post

I am thinking about the 3808ci for my 60" SXRD Sony. If I already have a Denon 2930ci and the only other things going into it are a PS3, Xbox Elite and a HD DVR... does it really matter if it has a Faroudja DCDi? Would I be using it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tspeer View Post

Question about the denon 3808 with a DCDi processor and Toshiba XA2 which has a ReonVX processor. Would the denon's dcdi degrade the quality coming out of the toshiba?

Full 1080p input signals will probably bypass the built-in scaler.

If not, the Faroudja processing would degrade your picture if you left it on. However, most receivers provide the menu option to disable the built-in video processing. Worst case, you just disable it.
post #408 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkgriffin View Post

I am thinking about the 3808ci for my 60" SXRD Sony. If I already have a Denon 2930ci and the only other things going into it are a PS3, Xbox Elite and a HD DVR... does it really matter if it has a Faroudja DCDi? Would I be using it?

I'm a little confused about this,too. My display doesn't have a 1080p input,it just converts 1080i to 1080p. Do either of these scaler systems upconvert your source to anything even remotely close to a blu ray or hd-dvd quality picture? And if it doesn't,is it really all that important?
I guess for me the decoding of dts-hd master and dolby true-hd are much more important,and would weigh more heavily on my purchase decision.
post #409 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRAN HEARLEY View Post

I'm a little confused about this,too. My display doesn't have a 1080p input,it just converts 1080i to 1080p. Do either of these scaler systems upconvert your source to anything even remotely close to a blu ray or hd-dvd quality picture? And if it doesn't,is it really all that important?
I guess for me the decoding of dts-hd master and dolby true-hd are much more important,and would weigh more heavily on my purchase decision.

In your case, no 1080p input, you'll have to rely on your display to do the 1080i>1080p deinterlacing instead of an outboard AVR or VP.

An "upconvert" will not have the PQ of a true 1080i/1080p Bluray or HD-DVD signal. An upconvert can look better than the source if done well, but it's never as good as the real thing. Along with resolution, the bitrates Bluray/HD-DVD are encoded at are a huge part of why those formats look so good. No scaler/deinterlacer can "create" a higher bitrate signal.
post #410 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Full 1080p input signals will probably bypass the built-in scaler.

If not, the Faroudja processing would degrade your picture if you left it on. However, most receivers provide the menu option to disable the built-in video processing. Worst case, you just disable it.

Thanks... sounds like I don't even have to worry about the scaler that Denon is going to use. Makes a decision that much easier.
post #411 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRAN HEARLEY View Post

I'm a little confused about this,too. My display doesn't have a 1080p input,it just converts 1080i to 1080p. Do either of these scaler systems upconvert your source to anything even remotely close to a blu ray or hd-dvd quality picture? And if it doesn't,is it really all that important?
I guess for me the decoding of dts-hd master and dolby true-hd are much more important,and would weigh more heavily on my purchase decision.

An important thing that I think you are assuming incorrectly Neither HD-DVD or Blu-Ray are 1080P source material (meaning the content in the disk is in 1080i or 720p) the player scales the content to 1080P before outputting it. So what you would really want to do with one of these is disable all scalers other then what had the best one (player, receiver, or TV).
post #412 of 2596
Quite the opposite. 99% of HD DVD/BD content is 1080P24 on the disc. I only have a few titles that have 1080i content on the disc and it's my HDNet titles and the Chronos HD DVD(The Chronos BD is 1080P on the disc)
post #413 of 2596
Thanks for clearing that up guys. It makes more sense now. It also reaffirms what I was thinking that I don't really care which scaler chip they use. It's all about the audio for me,so I'm gonna wait for the Denon.
post #414 of 2596
Ok thanks everyone for sharing their opinions on DCDi and Reon, sounds like we'll have to wait for objective testing to get a true measure on these new units and their respective video implementations.

I've been very pleased with my Oppo and DCDi, I haven't had any macroblocking issues and the deinterlacing is superb, so maybe these problems only affect a minority of users. Also, I can't tell from the opinions here whether its first hand experience with macroblocking or just conclusion based upon reading.

The Secrets review of Oppo (with DCDi) still has it ranked along side the 5910 in picture quality and well above the Denon 3930...thus implementation is pretty critical...and if done correctly there's no reason to dismiss DCDi in favor of Reon as many on this thread are doing.

I'm going to wait and compare for myself.
post #415 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcdayton View Post

The Secrets review of Oppo (with DCDi) still has it ranked along side the 5910 in picture quality and well above the Denon 3930...thus implementation is pretty critical...and if done correctly there's no reason to dismiss DCDi in favor of Reon as many on this thread are doing.]

Be aware that those scores are assessed based on the objective tests a player is able to pass. A player that is able to correctly deinterlace all 480i material thrown its way, and pass full resolution for luma and chroma, with no CUE, no pixel cropping, and no clipping...will produce a near perfect score on that benchmark. However, one area that doesn't show up in those scores is scaling performance. Kris Deering, the forum member who performed those benchmarks, has said the Denon 3930 and Toshiba HD-XA2 produced a noticeably better picture -- despite scoring slightly lower-- due to superior scaling performance at 720p, 1080i, and 1080p.

There's no question that DCDi does an excellent job with 480i->480p deinterlace, when supplied with the right firmware. High-definition scaling (480p->1080p, 720p->1080p) and 1080i->1080p deinterlace is another matter entirely, though.
post #416 of 2596
Just to pick nits, HD-DVD is technically 1080i/24 with cadence flags attached and no 2:3 pull down yet applied (if the decoder is implemented correctly it can weave the two interlaced fields together in order to make near perfect, complete frames-- but that has not occured yet in an HD-DVD player to date). Blu-ray is encoded as 1080p/24 with no flags (pure progressive). Why the DVD Forum chose to encoded HD-DVD's very similar to DVD's is beyond me (the difference being that the interlaced video from film sources on DVD already have 2:3 pull down applied to create video friendly 30 fps--480i/30).

This is why R&B Films chose to state on their Chronos IMAX packaging that the HD-DVD is 1080i and the Blu-ray version is 1080p. Technically correct, just that some HD-DVD fans were unhappy with that label on the cover. Those HD-DVD discs that label the film encodes as 1080p are actually incorrect, or at the very least unintentionally misleading.
post #417 of 2596
Dan/BF

Are the differences between 1080P and 1080i appreciable? Could the untrained eye discern the difference? I'm assuming 1080P is technically superior since there's less processing going on....but is there any practical advantage.?

(BTW I'm not a big Sony fan anyway, I understand they're the main force behind BD)

And aren't the players responsible for decoding, sending the image? What role is the video section in a receiver really going to play other than moving signal from A->B, C->B, etc?


I mean, from what I've read, the source , the receiver and the display all have built in processing...sounds like a lot of redundancy. So I assume the advantage with high end processing in receiver is that it can overcome deficiency in your source or display?

I know my cable box isn't that good at deinterlacing 480i...
post #418 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Just to pick nits, HD-DVD is technically 1080i/24 with cadence flags attached and no 2:3 pull down yet applied (if the decoder is implemented correctly it can weave the two interlaced fields together in order to make near perfect, complete frames-- but that has not occured yet in an HD-DVD player to date). Blu-ray is encoded as 1080p/24 with no flags (pure progressive). Why the DVD Forum chose to encoded HD-DVD's very similar to DVD's is beyond me (the difference being that the interlaced video from film sources on DVD already have 2:3 pull down applied to create video friendly 30 fps--480i/30).

.

But the bottom line is that HD DVD still produces, over its entire video catalog, an overall superior looking image when all is said and done. It's only recently that BR has been essentially equaling HD DVD, not exceeding it. So whatever the technicalities are, HD DVD is still at the very least, as good as BR. I've yet to see one single review that indicated a BR release looked better than the same release in HD DVD. However, I saw many indicating the opposite since the launch of BR. This is why I don't get hung up on the "i" and the "p".
post #419 of 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Just to pick nits, HD-DVD is technically 1080i/24 with cadence flags attached and no 2:3 pull down yet applied (if the decoder is implemented correctly it can weave the two interlaced fields together in order to make near perfect, complete frames-- but that has not occured yet in an HD-DVD player to date). Blu-ray is encoded as 1080p/24 with no flags (pure progressive). Why the DVD Forum chose to encoded HD-DVD's very similar to DVD's is beyond me (the difference being that the interlaced video from film sources on DVD already have 2:3 pull down applied to create video friendly 30 fps--480i/30).

This is why R&B Films chose to state on their Chronos IMAX packaging that the HD-DVD is 1080i and the Blu-ray version is 1080p. Technically correct, just that some HD-DVD fans were unhappy with that label on the cover. Those HD-DVD discs that label the film encodes as 1080p are actually incorrect, or at the very least unintentionally misleading.

HD DVD is 1080p24 encoded:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...D+DVD+encoding

"Seems that Technicolor answered the question. Disks with film content are encoded at 1080p24. Then the 2:3 cadence flag indicates to the player that it should output at 1080i60. If the player wants it can directly output the 1080p24 content without interlacing it.

__________________
Steve "
post #420 of 2596
From what I've read it looks like the frames are technically encoded as two fields acting just like interlaced video (very fine print stuff that was talked about when HD-DVD was first coming to market). The problem comes when the HD-DVD player doesn't combine them to make a 1080p/24 stream. Even the higher end Toshibas work like this: 1080i/24 out of the decoder --> 2:3 pull down is added and then doubled via a scaler to get a 1080i/60 output that most TV's like. Then if you turn on the 1080p/24 mode the scaler applies a reverse telecine operation to strip out the 2:3 cadence, though not always done perfectly. This is where the over processing the video part kicks in.

If you have pure 1080p/24 off the disc with no additional processing after the decoder and that is output to a display with 1080p/24 capabilities that will double or triple that to a refresh rate of 48 Hz or 72 Hz so that 2:3 pull down is not applied you will get a smoother looking image with no added motion judder because of this irregular frame cadence. The only judder you would still get is the natural kind from film running through the camera at 24 frames per second (really not fast enough for capturing quick motion and panning).

Having scaling and processing in multiple products is just part 'n' parcel with today's electronics. It all depends on the implementation. Use whichever one does a better job. However, you do need HDMI into a receiver or pre-amp to strip out the audio for decoding and at least send the video back out to a display.

Personally, I like Sony more than Microsoft if you want to bring this up. Support HD-DVD and you support Microsoft's tactics. Blu-ray is not just Sony. Matsushita, Royal Philips, and Pioneer are also very heavy hitters and have equal claim on Blu-ray technology. Do you dislike them too?
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