What causes this???

Months ago I made a thread in the DVD section, because I didn't know whether my TV, DVD player, cable, or cable length was an issue.

I have an intermittant problem, and everytime I have tried to "troubleshoot" it it would go away.

Anyway, what I do know is that is it NOT a source issue; Finally verified the problem with another source.

I hate to repeat my other thread, but in short, I have NEVER experienced dropouts or sparkles. I have a total of 31' of HDMI cable. A 25' in-wall section terminated to wall plates, a 3 foot jumper on one end, and a 3' jumper on the other.

Source is an Oppo 971H; Display is a Sony KDFE42A10. Both obviously very popular products at the time of purchase, and I have seen no mention of anyone else having this problem.

Note, that I have NO other issues with any components of mine, except for this.

Other notes; when the problem happens, it happens and there is nothing I can do to get rid of it (giggle the cables, unplug the HDMI and plug it back in, power cycle the source, the display, unplug all components, etc).

Conversly, when I want the problem to happen, there is nothing I can do to duplicate it. It just happens. Also note, res setting on the Oppo has no effect when the problem is present. 480i->1080i makes no difference.

Sometimes the problem happens at initial power on, sometimes in the middle of a movie. There is no pattern.

First pic shows it going "pink". Second pic is normal; third is "green". Note, display device on-screen menus are not affected (they are normal, even though the images below may make is seem otherwise).

I wish I had a definitive answer as of yet, but I still do not.

I do now know for a fact it isn't the source; that much is certain.

Which leaves, the TV, or cable (or cable length).

While I would love to just assume its the TV, the odd thing is I have seen these symptoms on other forums when using "hdmi switchers".

Also, I talked to 1 of my two available local Sony Authorized repair centers (TV is still under warranty), and the owner (really nice fellow) didn't really know what to do. And he's right; if they can't duplicate it, all they can do is "shotgun" it (take an educated guess and replace the most likely part without actually verifying it). Problem is, once I get the TV back, I may not know whether its fixed or not for weeks.

Also, I wonder what happens once the factory warranty lapses and the problem shows back up?

I know this is a repeat thread, but seeing this new forum, I thought I'd throw it in here since its the most relavent place in the hopes that someone may have seen this before.

Maybe I am judging it too quickly, but since this is my first HDMI capable TV, and digital source (Oppo-DVI), the hdmi is leaving a bad taste in my mouth so far.

-Alan

This is a very real possibility as well, and something I might have overlooked.

However, if true, then that REALLY sucks for HDMI. I have about 30 cables between the TV and equipment rack (TV located above the fireplace in a hole designed for just this purpose, and the equipment rack is located along a living room wall). I have RF, composite, S-video, component, VGA, and all associated audio connections, -EDIT- Including spdif digital audio -END EDIT, all terminated thru wall plates, and have not a single issue with any of those types of connections. Although they are mostly analog (except the spdif), and HDMI is digital, that really is not good at all. Funny thing is I need all those connections for my various sources. If there was a way to drop the HDMI input from the TV and add more VGA connections with more VGA sources, I'd do it in a heartbeat. The quality over VGA, even with these 30 ft cable runs is just amazing.

When I have the opportunity, I will attempt troubleshooting it some more. I have just been extremely busy-only had one day off since Christmas, but I will get back on it as soon as I can. Believe ME, I want this fixed.

-Alan

Thank you all, especially Bob and PooperScooper!

To add to what PooperScooper mentioned, I have *never* experienced a blank screen, or even a single sparkle. From what I gather with the digital connection, its either there or not, or if your on the edge of exceeding cable length, you get single bit errors (sparkles) since there is no error correction in the HDMI spec (that I am aware of anyway).

Bob, just one quick question for you, and I think someone may have answered this for me in another thread, but can't recall:

Since the mismatch occurs during the handshake, my question is:

Does the handshake continue repeatedly and continuously?

The reason I ask, is here lately most times at startup/power on is when I see the issue (its getting worse thank goodness), but in the past, it could be correct, and BAM, just go "pink" right in the middle of a movie.

TIA,

-Alan

-EDIT- Also, I will look again to see if there is a way to "force" the colorspace, but I do not recall seeing any options to do so in my TV. And since the oppo uses DVI and blindly sends RGB, there aren't any options on the player for sure.

I don't know if I have any options on the TV, but I will check.

Well, after all this time (Have had the issue since October, when I got my first DVI/HDMI source), one thing I do know for sure, it is NOT the Oppo. At first I thought so too (and my origional thread is in the DVD section), but they happily exchanged it and I also got the same symptoms with another source (finally, took some time to duplicate it with another source, because this problem seems elusive when I finally go to troubleshoot it-it works fine of course).

Anyway, used my son's PC with a DVI connection, and when I saw the issue with the Oppo, I unplugged the Oppo, plugged in the PC and had the same symptoms.

-Alan

Just thought I'd bump my thread and give an update.

First, thank you to everyone who responded.

Secondly, the problem has been so elusive and/or I have been so busy, and since I didn't get my HDMI source (actually its DVI) until many months after buying the TV, I now only have one month left on the factory warranty. (I do have an extended warranty as well if need be).

So I decided to put it in the shop. I explained in detail, and provided pictures to the tech the problem, so we will see what happens. I can only assume that either they will or won't be able to duplicate it, and either they will or won't replace the HDMI board reguardless if they can duplicate the problem or not. We will see.

Right before taking the TV in, though I noticed something I had never seen before. When the picture was normal, the TV was PERFECT. However, once the issue showed up, I started seeing about a dozen or so pixels flashing on the screen (sparkles I guess, but not very many pixels at all). Again though, when the pic was not experiencing the green/pink issue, it was PERFECT with not a single pixel out of place.

I'll keep everyone posted.

Oh, to the posters above comenting on wall-plates: Although its still a very real possibility (as is my cable length), I would really hope that the HDMI spec is not so tight that the signal couldn't passthrough a wallplate without error. If so, I'll never buy another HDMI product again. With wired computer networks, cat5e/6 has pretty tight specs for twists per inch, and distance between pairs, and they pass thru wall plates without issue at all.

-Alan

PS What is the *official* spec for max length of HDMI? I have read conflicting answers.

Nope, no 1080p. My set is 720p. And when I do have issue (the green or pink screen), changing resolutions on my player doesn't do a darn thing. I can cycle it thru all modes, including 480i and still the problem will remain until it just wants to go away.

-Alan

Update:

There may be some light at the end of the tunnel afterall.

I just called the repair shop (its only been a week and a half), and asked them the status of the TV; they said they have a board ordered.

I explained to the person who answered the phone that I am in no hurry for the TV, and for them to take their time, and that I had a very intermittent problem that I explained to the tech in great detail when I dropped the TV off. I just mentioned that I was just curious as to whether the tech was able to duplicate the problem.

Turns out, he was!!! Although the person who answered the phone said the part had not arrived yet, and seemed to intimate that although they were able to duplicate it, they weren't able to troubleshoot it, and they would have to wait and see whether the ordered part fixes the issue.

Fingers crossed.

-Alan

PS The one thing I forgot to ask, and am curious of...Lets say I get my TV back, and the symptoms come back in a month (out of factory warranty), would I still be covered by Sony since the issue had not been resolved when reported when the TV was in warranty? It doesn't really matter, I have an "extended" warranty thru the place I bought it-I just feel more comfortable working with the Sony authorized local shop than sending the TV off somewhere. Since I have an electronics background, its nice to be able to give full details face to face with the tech.

update:

Got the TV back yesterday. So far, so good! Watched a couple movies, and no problems at all.

Only time will tell, but I will be soooo happy if I never see the problem again. I was starting to worry about my 31ft total length HDMI run (25' in wall, terminated to two hdmi wall plates, and a pair of 3 ft jumpers at each end).

-Alan

Well, it happened again. 8(

Guess I will call the shop and see if the tech did in fact duplicate the problem, or whether he just "shotgunned" it. If he did, they didn't replace the correct part; if he didn't actually duplicate it, then it could still be my cable length/wall plates.

I'll find out tommorrow. I'm not upset; knew this was a hard problem, but highly dissapointed.

-Alan

Another update...

Called the shop and asked to speak directly to the tech. Got the tech that worked on my TV, and he told me that they could NOT actually verify the problem (must have been miscommunication when I asked about it earlier in the week with the person who answered the phone).

Anyway, he said it took some convincing, but he convinced Sony to allow him to go ahead and change the "P" board (HDMI input board).

Soooo...

I have eliminated the source, I have eliminated the TV. I have exhanged all the cables in the chain, except the 25' run, which I find hard to believe would be bad and exhibit such intermittent symptoms. Although it *could* still be bad; its doubtful.

Which leaves the wallplates. I now have a set of Etherreal plates on the way.

-Alan

Thanks for reading my thread. It is frustrating for sure, and while there is always that possibility of compatibility issues, I have two of the more popular products here at AVS; The Oppo 971, and the Sony KDFE42A10. With as many owners of the Oppos and Sony sets, it seems that someone else should have reported issues by now, but you just never know.

I really feel sorry for those people experiencing problems with complex setups. Mine is pretty simple; no switches, no HDMI on my AVR, etc. Just a single source (DVI actually) and a single port on the destination (HDMI) with a rather long run going between the two.

I'll tell you what, though...I guess its enevitible, but I *sure* hope they don't cripple the component outputs in the future on settop boxes/satellite receivers. This whole debacle has made me just want to run right out and upgrade my equipment with more HDMI inputs on the TV and more HDMI sources (heavy sarcasm).

-Alan

Will do. Although, all I am trying to do is 720p!!! But if it fixes the issue, I will be a happy camper.

I'll say this, they are *damn* expensive for what they are. A pair of circuit boards, and a line driver. But I realize they are a brand new product, and a good share of that is R&D. (The circuit board design, although contains no active components in the picutre data lines, is crucial in to maintain the delicate impedance). As long as they solve my issue, they will have been worth every penny as far as I am concerned though.

If they do fix it, on the other hand, I'll be pissed off that I wasted $80 in "cheap" wall plates to begin with!

-Alan

Well, its probably too early to tell; I've had this issue for sooo long, and its sooo elusive, I am just expecting it to happen again.

Also, I only have one of the wall plates installed; I sent the other back for an exchange.

Anyway, *crosses fingers*, so far so good. Haven't really gave the DVD player a real workout yet, but we have watched a couple movies on it, and I have turned in on and off every day just to see if the issue is still there.

Its just soooo strage that the picture data (high speed/high bandwidth) would make it there intact, yet the DDC data (low speed/low bandwisth handshake/colorspace) would get fubbared along the way. I just don't see how they screwed the pooch on those specs.

Anyway, the one wall plate that is installed is the active one with line driver IC to help to low speed data.

Again, its too early yet to draw any conclusions, but I did want to let you know I haven't forgot about your request, and that so far.....so good, but only extended time will tell.

-Alan

Thanks for checking in. By the way, I felt kind of silly sending that one plate back, but I don't know if the HDMI/DVI interface is short circuit protected, and it *looked* as if two of the pins were bridged.

I know you have to keep quiet due to competition, but damn, I wish you could explain.

We gave the DVD player a real workout this weekend, and have not had the issue (again, its probably too early to tell, as I have went *weeks* inbetween seeing it).

I guess what I am baffled by is the fact that there is a line driver in the installed wall plate. Well, that line driver is closest to the TV, so it is only 3 feet away. However, that also means the source is still 28 feet away from the line driver. If this works then I will really be confused, because logically, that would mean that the line receiver in the TV is pretty darn weak. Also, I worry about maybe the line driver in the DVD player being weak, and the WP2 not getting enough signal from the DVD player since the WP2 is still a good 28 cable feet away, and ultimately, the problem will come back.

I know, I worry too darn much, but I have been pulling my hair out over this, and it doesn't make a lick of sense to me, other than the fact the DDC data rides on unbalanced lines, but then again, I have a VGA connection, and use a 25' VGA extender cable I use to hook up my laptop, and it has NO PROBLEM with recognizing the display device every time! (with the 33' inwall of VGA, and 25' external, thats over 50 feet!!!).

Anyway, thanks for stopping in, and I will keep you posted, but so far....so good!

-Alan

PS. For clarification, what doesn't make sense is the picture data makes it perfectly intact (no sparkles), yet the DDC data doesn't! Only thing I can imagine is the balanced TDMS lines vs the unbalanced DDC line. (I am a broadcast engineer by trade, and am all too familiar with the advantages of balanced lines/circuits)