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RS-1 Mounting Question with High Power Screen

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Sorry about another RS-1 thread but I first asked my question in the "master thread" and got no response. So here goes...

Given that the high power maximizes its gain the closer the projector is to the level of your eyes, what kind of mount would be best for a ceiling anchored set-up with an extension pole? Is the RS-1 expected to perform any differently in an inverted vs up-right position? (Sort of the Kama Sutra of projectors question. )

A typical inverted mount or a "cage" like this where the projector is "right side up"?
Thx

LCDA Series Non-Inverted LCD/DLP Projector Ceiling Mount http://www.chiefmfg.com/store/detail/?product_id=80727

LCDA
A universal solution for mounting upright LCD/DLP projectors, the LCDA Series Mount holds projectors on an adjustable tray and allows you to tighten the mount around your projector for a secure fit. The LCDA provides you with Chief's classic independent adjustments for quick, easy registration. Use the LCDA Series Mount when you want to install a portable projector in the ceiling and take it down frequently for traveling.
post #2 of 29
Excellent question Lyle. I'm in the same situation...RS1 on pre-order, high-power screen, living in Portland.

My current PJ sits on a shelf right behind my row of seats, but the size of the RS1 makes this option less appealing (I'd have to modify the 13" deep shelf to accommodate the RS1). My wife wants me to look into ceiling mounting it, but I don't want to do so unless I can lower it from the ceiling enough to retain the HP brightness...

-tony
post #3 of 29
I'd recommend a shelf mount, as the projector needs to be as close to eye level as possible.
The projector has lots of vertical shift so it will work fine upright sitting on a shelf.

Having ceiling pole mount with the projector at 6' or so off the ground, could be a risk to those walking in the room, and probably not look the best either?
post #4 of 29
It's very easy to make your own shelf out of MDF. If you're considering an anamorphic lens you can make the shelf bigger than your projector allowing room for the lens to sit in front. I suspended my shelf from the ceiling with 3/8" threaded rod at each corner and painted the whole thing flat black. I think it looks even better than the mount in this thread and is infinitely adjustable with the threaded rods.
post #5 of 29
The RS1 will be almost twice as bright as my current projector. My HT1000 projects to the High Power from a low near the floor mounting position. If I understand the retro-reflective nature of the screen I will lose 10-20% of the brightness when the RS1 is ceiling mounted as planned. Therefore I should get a substantial increase in brightness. But what about contrast, color, or any other visual element being affected?

Jack
post #6 of 29
I noticed the image off axis takes on a washed out look. I had my projector mounted higher for a couple of years and when I moved it down the difference was stunning with the high power. It has a very tight prime area but if your in it, the image reflected from the screen is 2nd to none.
post #7 of 29
I will be mounting the RS1 on a 50" stand right behind (and between) my wife's and my recliners.
post #8 of 29
Thread Starter 
Does anyone know what the ideal mounting location would be such as dead center of screen given that that is it's zero lens shift location and also at what part of it's throw range? Or won't it make much of a difference? Clear as mud, right?
post #9 of 29
I think you can mount the PJ a bit higher than the center of your screen without too much penalty. I would use the longest throw with the PJ such that the angle of incidence is small.

Therefore if you mount the PJ lens center 2 feet above the screen center and the throw is 20 feet, the angle is ARCTAN(2/20) = 5.71 degrees. This would only yield a small drop in gain.

If the throw is short (say 13 feet) and you ceiling mount to generate a 4 foot offset ... then the angle of ARCTAN(4/13) = 17.1 degrees which is a significant dropoff in gain.

As you can see the high power screen is best when used with long throw PJ's (projectors) and likewise if you have your seating spaced back as well. If the first row is 16-18 feet back then your outermost seat will have a lower angle of incidence to the screen also. Keep in mind you loose some gain between the PJ and screen (5.71 degrees above) and by the angle from your outer seat to the center of the screen (another 6 degrees perhaps). The compound angle is closer to 12 degrees and therefore the gain is cut accordingly.

The worst scenario would be a ceiling mounted PJ with a short throw while your 4 wide seating is closer than 1.3 screen widths to the screen.

I don't work for Da-Lite but I did have to study math for MANY years.

k
post #10 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobrigavitch View Post

It's very easy to make your own shelf out of MDF. If you're considering an anamorphic lens you can make the shelf bigger than your projector allowing room for the lens to sit in front. I suspended my shelf from the ceiling with 3/8" threaded rod at each corner and painted the whole thing flat black. I think it looks even better than the mount in this thread and is infinitely adjustable with the threaded rods.

Sounds interesting. Can you post a photo?
post #11 of 29
Jack B, Jack LT is right.

if you mount your projector via the ceiling and and use it with a HP screen you will be watching your shows from outside of the HP veiwing cone and it will be utterly WASHED-OUT and dim. and look like crap.

HP MUST be viewed as close to straight on as possible - period.

I'm just saying.......................................got a 120 HP with an H31 - looks great with a wall-level mount for proj. and looks like garbage with proj near ceiling.

If you are set with ceiling mount - don't bother to get the HP - in fact you will get a worse pict (more washed out) with the HP than a old sheet with such a setup. (IMO of course).
post #12 of 29
HP is retro-reflective. one does not need to sit way back on the back row to get even bright picture.

only need to have proj., screen, and eyes near the same line of sight.

one can be litterly 4-ft from the HP and it will not hotspot.

(IMO of course)
post #13 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaffo View Post

HP is retro-reflective. one does not need to sit way back on the back row to get even bright picture.

only need to have proj., screen, and eyes near the same line of sight.

one can be litterly 4-ft from the HP and it will not hotspot.

(IMO of course)


I was referring to angle from the outside seat to the PJ lens. If you pull in a row of seats 4 wide, the outside seats will be at a disadvantage. It is best to have a wide row of seats further back than close is what I was saying.

From 30 feet back the screen looks real uniform even at 8 feet either side of center.

k
post #14 of 29
I think its just the projector needs to be as close to eye level as possible for best results, the vertical screen position does not factor in, but farther back you are from the screen the wider the prime viewing cone becomes.
post #15 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevivoe View Post

I think you can mount the PJ a bit higher than the center of your screen without too much penalty. I would use the longest throw with the PJ such that the angle of incidence is small.

Therefore if you mount the PJ lens center 2 feet above the screen center and the throw is 20 feet, the angle is ARCTAN(2/20) = 5.71 degrees. This would only yield a small drop in gain.

If the throw is short (say 13 feet) and you ceiling mount to generate a 4 foot offset ... then the angle of ARCTAN(4/13) = 17.1 degrees which is a significant dropoff in gain.

As you can see the high power screen is best when used with long throw PJ's (projectors) and likewise if you have your seating spaced back as well. If the first row is 16-18 feet back then your outermost seat will have a lower angle of incidence to the screen also. Keep in mind you loose some gain between the PJ and screen (5.71 degrees above) and by the angle from your outer seat to the center of the screen (another 6 degrees perhaps). The compound angle is closer to 12 degrees and therefore the gain is cut accordingly.

The worst scenario would be a ceiling mounted PJ with a short throw while your 4 wide seating is closer than 1.3 screen widths to the screen.

I don't work for Da-Lite but I did have to study math for MANY years.

k


Excellent post k, very helpful information.

-tony
post #16 of 29
Thread Starter 
K thanks for the analysis. It's consistent with my real world experience with my 128" wide HP and my current PJ.

For practical matters it would seem most HP users will want to be at the long end of the throw for all the reasons you mention.

It will be interesting to compare measured lumens from those who ceiling mount at the maximum zoom (presumably the brightest location) with non-HP screens to those who take advantage of the gain from the HP but will need to be at the longer end of the throw where the brghtness out of the PJ will be less.

With my set-up the HP makes a huge difference in pop when viewed in its sweet spot.

Has anyone read any of the Angel of View" white papers on DaLite's website?
http://da-lite.com/education/angles_of_view.php

Gaffo, you are right about needing to bring it down. I wouldn't say that I had no benefit from the HP when my PJ was ceiling mounted at the long end of its throw, but dropping it down 3 ft was a big enough improvement that I put up with digital keystone correction so I can take advantage of the much higher gain.

Tony, maybe when we get our PJs we should hook up locally and compare notes? I'm in the Lake Oswego area so not too far away from Beaverton.
post #17 of 29
I don't think long throw is necessary if the pj is not far above your head. The relevant angle is that from pj, to screen (at just about any point), to your eye. If the pj were right beside your eye, this angle would be 0 for any point on the screen. If it is only 1-2 ft above and behind, it will be small (and you can calculate for your own situation; it will vary some, but little, for various points on the screen).
post #18 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I don't think long throw is necessary if the pj is not far above your head. The relevant angle is that from pj, to screen (at just about any point), to your eye. If the pj were right beside your eye, this angle would be 0 for any point on the screen. If it is only 1-2 ft above and behind, it will be small (and you can calculate for your own situation; it will vary some, but little, for various points on the screen).


The lens by your eye puts the fan by your ear. At least with my geometries.

I'd prefer to mount the PJ above my head by about 3-4 feet so I would migrate the PJ back as far as possible. The problem I am finding is that most of the newer PJ's are going to shorter and shorter throws. You really have to spend some $$ to get a long throw theater projector.

k
post #19 of 29
kevivoe, yes, it does put the pj close to your ears; my RS1 will have the lens at ~ 52" hi, ~ 1.5 ft above wife's and my head, and above the same distance behind. So the sound of the RS1 was one of the main things I checked out at the CES this Jan. I found that I had to be within ~ a ft or so of the exhaust port before I heard anything (from my 66 yr old ears!), and even then it was a low pitched and low pressure 'whoosh', not a high-pitched whine; so I convinced myself it would not be a problem for us. Other people have expressed other opinions on this (of course), so everybody has to decide for themselves.
post #20 of 29
My current screen is the HP with the HT 1000 located about 4" off the floor in the lower shelf of an end table. I noticed about two years ago while doing my morning stretching and watching something on the HP that the picture was substantially brighter than when sitting in the chair. This is when I discovered what retro-reflective meant. So I raised my screen level and used the HT1000 lens shift to move the 16x9 picture to the top of the 4x3 screen and voila!, the brightness/contrast jumped up.

My problem has been that I've hated all the cables going to the projector and was planning on ceiling mounting the RS1 to get rid of the cables. I had hoped that the additional brightness from the RS1 would make up for the viewing angle problem brought on by the ceiling mount. Sounds like it might not work as well as I had hoped.

Another issue I was concerned about was the retro-reflective characteristic of returning the light to the source. This might light up my ceiling, the only light colored surface in the room, to the point it would be distracting. I would hate to have to get up there and paint it a dark color.

Jack
post #21 of 29
I have a general throw question:

So... for non-retroreflective screens (like the Vutec silver star high gain), I imagine those are more flexible regarding placement. I still think the long throw makes sense for reducing the angle of incidence. While the light won't be relected back to the ceiling like it would with a retroreflective screen, you also don't want to have it reflecting too much onto the floor.

Regardless of the screen technology, is there ever a scenario where it is preferable to do short throw mounting (assuming that there is enough physical space for long throw)?

I seem to recall hearing that short throw maximizes ANSI contrast, and long throw maximizes on : off. Frankly I can't see why that would make a difference, and therefore probably isn't correct. If it were true though, since the RS-1 already has such excellent on : off, would that be a reason to have the projector a little closer to the screen?
post #22 of 29
for the record my H31 is set for shortest throw (I have a shallow room - 13.5 ft) to give me a 120" screen size.

the HiPower does just fine on this short throw as long as the proj/eye/screen are near the same level.

AFAIK the NON-retroreflective sceens DO prefer the longest throw you can give them.
post #23 of 29
I've got a High Power screen ordered to go with an RS1 that I've ordered, and I chose the HP for all of the benefits other than the high gain: wrinkle resistant material, lack of hot spotting, ambient light rejection, non-visible texture, and a great price. I'll be ceiling mounting the RS1, I'll be at the short end of the range for a 106 screen, and while my external light blocking is good, I've got light colored walls and ceiling.

I've been reading through a lot of threads like this (I know this is an older one that I'm resurrecting ), and one thing confuses me:

Everybody says that ceiling mounted + short throw is bad with a High Power screen, since your viewing cone will be more limited and you'll likely be outside the optimum viewing angle. I get that.

What I *don't* get is the idea that the picture will look washed out in that scenario. If you're at the short end of your projector's throw, you don't necessarily *want* maximum gain. Won't being outside of the optimum viewing angle reduce the gain uniformly? Meaning that blacks and whites will be equally dimmer? That doesn't sound like it would result in a washed out look at all, and in fact could be exactly what you want when dealing with a short throw.

Thoughts?
post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Tack View Post

I've got a High Power screen ordered to go with an RS1 that I've ordered, and I chose the HP for all of the benefits other than the high gain: wrinkle resistant material, lack of hot spotting, ambient light rejection, non-visible texture, and a great price. I'll be ceiling mounting the RS1, I'll be at the short end of the range for a 106 screen, and while my external light blocking is good, I've got light colored walls and ceiling.

I've been reading through a lot of threads like this (I know this is an older one that I'm resurrecting ), and one thing confuses me:

Everybody says that ceiling mounted + short throw is bad with a High Power screen, since your viewing cone will be more limited and you'll likely be outside the optimum viewing angle. I get that.

What I *don't* get is the idea that the picture will look washed out in that scenario. If you're at the short end of your projector's throw, you don't necessarily *want* maximum gain. Won't being outside of the optimum viewing angle reduce the gain uniformly? Meaning that blacks and whites will be equally dimmer? That doesn't sound like it would result in a washed out look at all, and in fact could be exactly what you want when dealing with a short throw.

Thoughts?

You are right about the "washed out" comment not being correct just for the screen itself. I've honestly not heard that description given to it often. Typically the
discussion revolves around gain and the viewing angle.

Perhaps whoever made that comment had some additional context regarding ambient light in the room that got lost...
post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Tack View Post

I've got a High Power screen ordered to go with an RS1 that I've ordered, and I chose the HP for all of the benefits other than the high gain: wrinkle resistant material, lack of hot spotting, ambient light rejection, non-visible texture, and a great price. I'll be ceiling mounting the RS1, I'll be at the short end of the range for a 106 screen, and while my external light blocking is good, I've got light colored walls and ceiling.

I've been reading through a lot of threads like this (I know this is an older one that I'm resurrecting ), and one thing confuses me:

Everybody says that ceiling mounted + short throw is bad with a High Power screen, since your viewing cone will be more limited and you'll likely be outside the optimum viewing angle. I get that.

What I *don't* get is the idea that the picture will look washed out in that scenario. If you're at the short end of your projector's throw, you don't necessarily *want* maximum gain. Won't being outside of the optimum viewing angle reduce the gain uniformly? Meaning that blacks and whites will be equally dimmer? That doesn't sound like it would result in a washed out look at all, and in fact could be exactly what you want when dealing with a short throw.

Thoughts?

A thought on a different matter.

Mounting like that might make it more important to treat the ceiling with something that will absorb the light that goes back up there.

I like highpower screens, btw.

Also, don't forget the benefit that it is easy to clean.

Best Regards,
Doug
post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by shodoug View Post

Also, don't forget the benefit that it is easy to clean.

Ah, I didn't realize that one. Good to know.

In terms of doing something with my white ceiling, I'm not sure what I'd do other than paint the whole thing a darker color. Might look weird in my family room (plus it's got that popcorn stuff, which sounds like a pain to try and paint).

I have to say, as a front projector newbie, picking out a screen is not easy. The sales guy I ordered the RS1 from pointed me toward a Firehawk G3, but I got sticker shock (and he was quoting me for a *fixed* screen). I can get an IR controlled motorized Da-Lite HP screen for a fraction of that.

In a perfect world, I could go with the "you get what you pay for" rule of thumb and know that it was worth it to cough up the extra cash. I'm not sure that totally applies with screens though.
post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

You are right about the "washed out" comment not being correct just for the screen itself. I've honestly not heard that description given to it often.

Good to know. When I read that, I got a little worried.

Guess I'll find out myself one of these days, depending on if/when my RS1 ever ships...
post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Tack View Post

Ah, I didn't realize that one. Good to know.

In terms of doing something with my white ceiling, I'm not sure what I'd do other than paint the whole thing a darker color. Might look weird in my family room (plus it's got that popcorn stuff, which sounds like a pain to try and paint).

I have to say, as a front projector newbie, picking out a screen is not easy. The sales guy I ordered the RS1 from pointed me toward a Firehawk G3, but I got sticker shock (and he was quoting me for a *fixed* screen). I can get an IR controlled motorized Da-Lite HP screen for a fraction of that.

In a perfect world, I could go with the "you get what you pay for" rule of thumb and know that it was worth it to cough up the extra cash. I'm not sure that totally applies with screens though.

I have a 126" diag HP with my RS1 and think is a great combo. I read a number of posts about how much PQ was improved by painting the ceiling dark, but this is a non-starter for me. However I did buy some black cotton fabric (~$20) while my wife was away for a couple of weeks, and tacked it up** with (black) push pins; I stretched it quite tight so that there is essentially no sag. I think it helped the CR quite a bit.

And the kicker was that I didn't mention it to my wife when she got back, and it was about 2 weeks before she noticed it! (We usually watch at night, when the room is fairly dark already). I expected her to want me to immediately take it down, but no, she has no problem with it. I don't think she would go for painting the ceiling, but this is 'temporary', and really looks fine. Whatever works.

**I only covered the ceiling about 4 to5 ft out from above the screen.
post #29 of 29
Just so you know it is from a good source, the following was copied from Dalite's web site ( http://www.dalite.com/products/selec...9a0f7f45472db1 ):



High Power

A technological breakthrough combines the reflectivity of a glass beaded surface with the ability to clean the surface when required. Its smooth surface offers the highest gain of all types of screen surfaces with moderate viewing angle. Screen surface can be cleaned with mild soap and water. Flame retardant and mildew resistant.

Viewing Angle: 30°
Gain: 2.8

Best Regards,
Doug
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