AppleTV optical out to quality DAC = musical Nirvana??

I'm assuming you're streaming from an iTunes server on another computer. The DAC is to bypass the appleTV's internal DAC? It does have rca outs, though until someone gets there hands on one and reviews/tests it, we wont know how good of a converter it is. So the short answer is sure, it will work just fine, to whatever degree your DAC pleases you.

I already use a Macbook with its optical out into a Musical Fidelity X-DACv3, then out to a MF A5 integrated amp. The setup sounds terrific through my Magnepan 1.6QR's.

Really, though audio purists will argue about this, bits is bits. The quality of the DAC (and then, of course, the associated analog amplification and speakers) is the single largest variable in getting good sound with digital sources (I'm assuming some kind of lossless encoding for the music on the digital end).

John C.

Its exactly what I will do too. $300 for each, it is extremely convenient as compared with the Sonos.

I had to (temporarily) move back my Mac Mini to the living room, so I got an AirPort Express to connect via optical (Toslink) to my Denon, replacing the direct optical connection from the Mini.

Airport Express works great when it works, but sure enough, Saturday morning the connection got lost, no doubt because one of the 10 zillion cordless phones or WiFis belonging to the neighbors stepped on it.

So I googled and found a 30' optical cable for $15 (50' for $20)... and ordered one through Amazon, which is what I should have done in the first place... N or no N I can't imagine that AppleTV will be 100% reliable in an urban environment. Sure, you can run an ethernet cable, but at that point you might as well run an optical cable directly from your computer, and it will work with more than just iTunes.

Well, an optical cable might not be feasible if your computer is upstairs and you want to stream music to a dedicated basement theater room. I had a 30' optical cable running from my G5 to my upstairs stereo before I hooked up my MacBook (which is more convenient for me, since my G5 is behind my listening position, making it difficult to see what's playing or to control playback; the Macbook just sits on the top shelf of my stereo rack). It worked fine when I had it hooked up that way, but I need a completely different solution to get my iTunes files down to the basement. There, I think the AppleTV would be fine - though as Jonesky noted, I'm not sure I want to turn on my projector just to select music files. But the AppleTV really is also about streaming video, for which you'd need to have your video display on anyway.

Or maybe I'll just buy another MacBook . . . though this is far more expensive than the AppleTV device.

John C.

Apple Lossless > Digital Audio > DAC
This is a great idea, one that you can take in a number of different directions. I mean, this is essentially what any CD player does--reads digital WAV files, sends the signals to a DAC, outputs analog audio. You can argue the sonic merits of (well, anything, but let's include) CD rips, CD rips and jitter, feedback, cabling etc. But the upshot is that any number of variations on this three-step dance can sound very, very good.

1. Mac connected directly to TV
I'll start here because I'm doing this. I have a G4 Mac Mini hooked up to an HP LCD TV. A Waveterminal U24 (USB) sends a digital coax signal to a Bel Canto DAC 2 (I picked this over the Benchmark, but I don't remember why. Suffice it to say, I did). It works.
Pros: Single display for TV and computer. iTunes interface makes music access easy. Can display album artwork (no Front Row on my machine, but it's a fine interface if available).
Cons: Mac has to be on/awake to access audio. Display has to be on to start audio. Have to choose between using the display for Mac or for TV watching.

2. Mac & Roku/Slim
I also have a Roku M500 to stream to other rooms in the house (it's on a wheelie cart). iTunes 7 broke its ability to connect directly to your iTunes library (bad), but they have a new software beta that reconnects the two and also supports Apple Lossless files (good). Before iTunes broke it, it worked great.
Pros: Nice, easy to use interface. With digital-out, sound quality should be the same. Much less expensive than a dedicated-home-theater Mac.
Cons: Mac has to be on. 802.11b is only wireless option--IMHO, wired is preferred. No album artwork, not as visually impressive as Coverflow/Front Row.

3. UPnP & Roku/Slim
Put a hard drive in a Linksys NSLU2, for example, which runs UPnP (think "server") software.
Pros: Play music while your Mac is asleep. Roku/Slim experience should be no different than if it were streaming directly from your computer.
Cons: iTunes Library may be more difficult to maintain. Same Roku/Slim cons, higher geek factor involved in getting it up and running.

I think your biggest decisions are, in this order, 1. Is it most beneficial to have the Mac hooked up to the TV? 2. Do I want to access music via the TV screen? If the answer to both is "no", I'd recommend a streaming device that has its own interface and remote and put the Mac wherever it makes the most sense in your house.

Here are a couple more options:

1. Connect a Mac Mini (maybe an ATV?) to your stereo. Control it with a MacBook using NetTunes (http://www.shirt-pocket.com/netTunes...scription.html). Not cheap, but, you get a great interface in your lap and don't have to turn on a display device.

2. Tuneview (http://www.keyspan.com/products/TVI200C/). They either have or are planning to release a dongle to allow the remote to control an iTunes library directly (no need for an iPod).

Right, having an inexpensive core duo Mac at your display and connected to your AVR makes many things easier and keeps many doors open, whereas aTV just closes doors.

Also, many good suggestions on this thread...



Jonesky--Sonos may make sense for you if you don't mind spending an awful lot of money to set up a parallel, but separate, audio-only network. You'd get the wiz-bang handheld controller, though.

But, reading between your lines, if you're already committed to a Mac home theater household, I think you should just wait for the non-phone iPod touchpad with BT and wi-fi to be released--there's your iTunes controller & GUI in your hand. In the meantime, why not just use an Airport Express and control it from your laptop or some other Mac on your network? Its optical out is superb, and that way you'll have your iTunes library open on your screen--and can keep your HDTV off. (Plenty of threads on streaming to multiple Expresses as well.) As long as you are "at" a Mac or have a laptop on your lap. But let's say with the way you typically listen that you absolutely have to walk around and have something small in your hand--then stick a mini or Macbook at your display/AVR and then tap into it with VNC running on a Palm/PDA.

Way less than Sonos--especially since you know, deep down, you're gonna want one of those non-phone touchpad iPods once they come out. If and when you upgraded again, you'd still have that core-duo Mac which you could eventually move anywhere in the house to any display and be able to play back HD or digital audio.

For me an old 12" Powerbook and VNC works for those times when I don't want to turn the HDTV on, since it is small enough to keep around the living room. My wife's 15" PB is also usually somewhere around the house as well. But I'm still planning to get that touchpad iPod, and will use it to network and control our main HT Mac (which at the moment is a Macbook.)

It's probably a good bet the 2 ch DAC in the aTV will be about on par with the one in the AXP. nNot terrible, but not great either.

BB

I've been following this thread with interest, as I am considering something similar. I agree that it would be nice to have networked/archived video, music, and photos accessible from a handheld GUI, and I know that such a system is possible something like Charmed Quark's Windows software and a Windows-based PDA, but we have to be realistic about how much money, time and effort we want to spend for such a system.

In the end it boils down to how you will actually use the system on a day-to-day basis. For my own purposes, after having an extensive (and complex) DIY windows-based touchscreen system in my old house, I've realized that 98% of my usage is playing music throughout the house. When guests come over, they love to go through my collection and create playlists on the fly. I really don't want to have to cut on the plasma to play music in the house. Moreover, I'd like to start the music while I'm upstairs and have it follow me throughout the house.

To my knowledge, the Sonos system is the only system out there with a handheld GUI that is wireless and works equally well with Windows or Apple systems. While the fact that it is limited to music may eventually make it redundant, it also makes it simple. And I'll about keeping it simple these days!

Jonesky - what type of NAS are you considering?

How about the Squeezebox 3? It costs $299 but it sounds great and has a built-in vacuum florescent display that is bright. It has Burr Brown DACs, optical and coax digital ports. It has 802.11g built-in as well as ethernet. Slimserver running on PC, Mac or Linux works in conjunction with iTunes and keeps itself upto date. You can also control what the Squeezebox is playing by just going to port 9000 of the computer that is running the slimserver. If you have mulitple squeezeboxes, they can be configured to play independent music from the same server or sync them to play the same music everywhere.

You just get to slimserver by typing http://192.168.1.1:9000 Where 192.168.1.1 happens to be my server. Yours might vary. I can also control the Squeezebox locally through the remote and built-in display. Also, it connects to various internet radio stations and to your favorites that you can maintain through the squeezenetwork.

I am extremely pleased with it. I have one in my living room. I need something like that in my bigger home theater room. I was hoping an AppleTV could be used there since I have a receiver that can accept optical input.

What about Sailing Clicker? This software runs on many mobile phones and hand-held computers. Depending on the model you have, it connects to your Mac via Wifi or Bluetooth. It uses your phone's display, so it has a GUI and can control iTunes, Keynote, PowerPoint, EyeTV, DVD Player, VLC, among others. It is AppleScriptable, so you can add functionality.

And it costs only $24 (phone not included).

That's funny, I just ordered a Sonos ZP80 bundle yesterday. I'm not sure yet what I'm doing for storage (my RAID array recently fritzed), but I am convinced that the Sonos is the simplest and most elegant solution for whole-house music playback absent a mega-bucks or DIY-intensive hardwired whole-house audio system. If and when I get into distributed video, hopefully there will be a cost-effective solution equivalent to the Sonos -- perhaps leveraging the new AppleTV. But I'm looking forward to implementing the Sonos for now!

I am intending to move to PC-based playback so this thread is a great discussion of a lot of things I am currently thinking about.

Ideally, I want top audio quality combined with a nice (visual) UI and nice aesthetics. I am considering the following:

- MAC Mini > external USB Dac

- MAC Mini > Wireless > Slim Devices Transporter

Main issues that I am thinking about:

- Choice of DAC: The new Benchmark USB DAC looks really interesting (but poor aesthetics), thanks Jonesky for the heads up on that, could be a big product for Benchmark. I am otherwise considering the Stello DAC 220 MkII (looks neat, great reviews). The Transporter has its own integrated DAC, also looks good, is also getting good reviews.

- Choice of media s/w: Don't know how good itunes is for a big music collection (2000 CDs). The Transporter s/w interface (SlimServer) is web-based and seems pretty clunky, definitely a disadvantage. Options like JRiver (apparently good) run only on Windows (?)

- Solution for Remote: Maybe a MAC book (wireless connection)? Maybe a new touch screen iPod if it comes soon? Don't want to use the TV.

- Wireless or not? Would be great if it worked properly (Transporter does this pretty well apparently) but am worried about reliability (the trade-off is put the stuff in the living room at the risk of noise)

Haven't figured it all out yet. The Apple TV may be useful somehow but it doesn't appear to be able to sream music via USB (?) but hope to learn more from Apple soon re upcoming products incl. MAC OX Leopard, etc.

Any other thoughts appreciated !

I think you've gone over basic options logically and well--we know the aTV won't be shipping with an active USB port, just suspicions of how it might be activated for some future use, so if you choose to go the USB DAC route, rather than go optical out, you could even consider a G4 mini, some of which can be had for less than the announced price of the aTV. A G4 mini can be a wonderful unobtrusive networked iTunes box as long as you use a DAC or external audio interface, usb or firewire, plenty of good options. I loved mine, controlled it often with the display turned off via a Powerbook, now I've swapped that mini out (which I always found aesthetically pleasing) for a Macbook, and go optical out. (The Macbook is also aesthetically pleasing, tucked out of sight with its lid closed, right now its little light is pulsing saying "wake me up" and listen to that new Patty Griffin cd you just bought.) Everything's on gigabit now in our house, but I still stream to an Airport Express in a bedroom, works perfectly. (Optical out only, though, no USB.) There's a laptop in there all the time, asleep, 5 seconds to fire up the iTunes. For me, controlling and streaming Apple lossless playback has been virtually seamless.

In terms of software I'm a perfectly happy iTunes/Smart playlist/Bonjour sharing guy with a 300GB library--once we got gapless playback, that is. (I never use Front Row for anything.) 2000 cds? What format is it in now--or have you not ripped/imported them yet? In addition to DAC, software player, remote and wireless, do add storage, redundancy and backup to your checklist, my friend.

In terms of software, there was an interesting thread recently over at Mac Ars on just this subject:

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/...m/410001433831

You may want to take a moment and ask yourself whether you really want to think purely in terms of audio-only now--or--while you're solving that issue also keep the doors for video and high def open down the road. In that case, just get a core 2 duo with draft n and your hardware investment should be future-proofed for a good long while.

There's some Slim talk over in the 'Digital Media Server & Content Streamer' forum, though not much; everyone over there seems more into trying to stream high def these days with some junky new toy. That's also where those who've professed new-found love for things like the Sonos really should be.

No, Jonesky, at least it's clear you use Macs and I'm with you, some direct comparisons when you're trying to weigh the feasibility of a Mac-involved solution versus something proprietary IS very fair game here, it's what helps make this place special. Plus, I'm sure a lot of people reading along wonder what the differences and tradeoffs would be.

That comment was more toward K-Wood and his "I am convinced that the Sonos is the simplest and most elegant solution for whole-house music playback" with nary a hint of Mac knowledge or perspective added in for relevancy, i.e. what else he's tried to do, where he was frustrated. Once betrothed, however, there's no doubt the Sonos chapel is in another forum, that's all I'm saying.

I'm glad you posted this here Jonesky, it's a great thread precisely because there are, as you say, many ways to try to skin a cat.

Jonesky, Chef, many thanks for taking the time to respond. Both of you have hit a nerve in that I am concerned to keep the door open for a possible upgrade to include video later. Jonesky, I fully sympathise with your keep it simple' approach. I have read many stories on these forums of the complexity of getting video to work and the endless DIY tinkering with driver updates, etc. I definitely do not want to do this but may well accept Chef's advice and make sure that at least the base hardware is decently powered. Do Apple have plans for a Core 2 Duo Mini Mac?

Chef, a couple of other q's for you: you raised the issue of gapless'. Is this a big deal? If so, how does one solve it? You mentioned that you controlled your Mac Mini via a powerbook. This sounds ideal but how does this work? Does this require special remote control s/w or is this functionality built into Mac OS X? My CD collection still needs to be ripped and I will decide which format once I have decided on the setup. Any thoughts here? As I live in Moscow (Russia), I may hire some students to do the ripping which is cheap I haven't thought much about storage yet but you are right about backup. Any recommendations? Thanks also for the link to the iTunes discussion thread, v interesting.

Jonesky, good luck with your project. I would be interested to hear later how you find the new USB DAC1.

Depending on the types of music you listen to, especially opera and classical, yes, iTunes finally supporting gapless playback was a pretty big deal. Prior to iTunes 7, there were a couple of tedious work-arounds to minimize the iTunes-enforced gaps between tracks, but they're no longer necessary. You'll appreciate it also if you listen to live concerts, or something like 'Dark Side of the Moon,' where music was meant to be heard flowing from one song right into another.


It works by taking advantage of a cross-platform technology called VNC (Virtual Network Computing) a free client called "Chicken of the VNC" (there are other good ones) and yes, Apple builds remote desktop functionality into every Mac, you just have to allow it in System Preferences > Sharing > Apple Remote Desktop > Access Privileges > VNC viewers may control screen with password.

http://www.macminicolo.net/Mac_VNC_tutor.html

There are also a bunch of dedicated apps and applescripted stuff which can control iTunes remotely, look into NetTunes, RemoteTunes, if you don't want to VNC into it from another Mac. This has been mentioned on other threads, so poke around, you can also run VNC on a Palm, there's Salling Clicker as well for BT or Wi-Fi phones and pdas.

Some complain about lag, but with most of our Macs on gigabit (including the Macbook which is the one actually connected to the HDTV, AVR and a bevy of firewire and usb externals) with a relatively interference-free wireless g setup, VNC zips along nicely for us. I prefer VNC (over a remote control iTunes only app) not only because I don't have to turn on the HDTV if I don't want to, but also because while I have the Macbook desktop open on any other Mac in the house--usually a 12" Powerbook--I can do other things besides accessing iTunes: check my EyeTV recordings and schedule, export some shows to iPod format for my wife, rip a dvd, move files around and clear up some hard drive space, whatever, all remotely. VNC also allows me to select and de-select Airtunes streams to other locations, say to an Airport Express in the bedroom. (Which would all be in sync, locally and remote.)

So, at the moment, it is ideal, as long as you don't prioritize a svelte touchpad handheld controller like Jonesky, there's nothing yet so elegant, at least until that new touchpad iPod with built-in Wi-Fi and BT is released. I couldn't care less about the iPhone, I want the iPod sans phone as the ultimate Mac HT controller.

Ripping, storage and backup strategies are probably too vast to re-visit on this thread, externals and NAS have been covered on other specific threads. (I do Apple lossless, and have my iTunes library in a dual drive external enclosure, so I always have an automatically mirrored backup "copy" on a second hot swappable drive tray.)


Just remember that "storage" is not necessarily backup, and that "redundancy" against a particular drive failing (a la RAID 5) is not necessarily backup, either. The situation is a lot more nuanced, depending on how you value your time and data.

I have the vast majority of my iTunes music encoded in 196 bit AAC.
Until now I have been fine with that, however, I just bought a Denon 2807 and some great speakers and I am curious if I will need to re-rip my collection (I really don't want to).
Is Apple Lossless the only way to go? My collection is large enough as it is, but am I losing much quality with AAC @ 196 bits?

It depends on how good your ears are, and what you may want to do with the music in the future. Rip a few good reference cds lossless, and then compare them on your new system. let us know what you hear. Cost to rip a cd to lossless is around $.25. That's right, a 500MB lossless burn (rounding up here), stored on a 500 GB external HD (runs about $250--again rounding generously up), is about 25 cents. The same cd ripped to 192 kbps AAC at about 100MB runs about a nickel. SO, unless you need to save a few nickels, or are going to be primarily listening on an iPod, the choice is pretty clear. Maybe you might want to start by re-ripping only the best cds, or re-rip them as you listen to them. I know how tedious ripping a 1,000 cd collection can be. took me months.

I've done lots of listening tests both through high-end headphones (Grados) and a pretty good stereo system (Magnepan 1.6QR's powered by a Musical Fidelity A5 integrated amp). I always use the digital output from my Macbook running into a Musical Fidelity X-Dac v3, feeding its analog output to my A5 integrated amp. Associated cables are decent Monster stuff, but not anything wildly expensive (my interconnects were $30 for the pair; my digital optical cable about $35).

What I've found is that I can pretty easily tell the difference between music encoded at 192kbps vs. 256kbps or higher. Once I get to 256, things become much harder to distinguish. On all the pop music I listen to, nothing above 256 seems to make much difference. On a few jazz or classical recordings (particularly solo violin; one of my "torture tests" for this has been Ralph Vaughan Williams' Lark Ascending, which has a lot of sustained solo violin passages; listen for the vibrato on the violin on high-pitched notes), I can hear a difference between 256 and 320, but differences between 320 and lossless are elusive. Sometimes I THINK I hear a difference, particularly in dynamic shading, but I suspect that if you put me in a double-blind test, I'd fail. Now, understand that I'm 51 years old, and my hearing drops off rapidly above 14khz; by 15khz, I'm done, hearing-wise.

Nevertheless, I have all my stuff encoded in Apple Lossless. My theory here is that with lossless, I've got everything that was originally on the disc. If I want to "downconvert" for my iPod, it's easy to do so. But if you rip stuff at 256 and then decide you're missing out by not having a file at 320 or a lossless file, your only choice is to re-rip.

Given how cheap storage space is these days ($200 for a 500gb OEM drive), I'd say that anyone spending the time to rip a collection is absolutely crazy if they don't use some kind of lossless codec. You can then always downconvert if you want, or change to a different codec. But if you don't have the files in lossless, you're stuck with whatever maximum bit rate you chose to do your ripping.

John C.

Thank you both for your great advice!
The logic of cheap storage and lossess encoding is hard to refute.