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Apple TV Noob Question

post #1 of 35
2/14/07 at 12:31am
Thread Starter 
Hello All!,

New to this particular forum, and I hope some fellow HT geeks can help

Im on the fence about Apple TV, and for one reason, quality of picture.

I am biased, in that I own HDDVD and BRD, so I always want HD this HD that. I do understand Itunes does not have a ton of HD content yet.

So, my question is how will content look on my HD Plasma using Apple TV? I mainly watch TV episodes, and when they run on a laptop they look decent, but when I increase the screen size the quality tends to take a hit. Wont running TV episodes on my TV with Apple TV look horrible? Does Apple TV do something to correct this? Or does the file format have to be better quality?(i.e. higher res, HD, etc.). I dont want to run and buy this thing, only to have all the content look like a bad B movie.

Sorry for the dumb questions, but advice is much appreciated!
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post #2 of 35
2/14/07 at 3:17am
I don't think anyone really knows just yet. I'm guessing (hoping, actually) that they're prepping higher rez material while we wait for aTV to ship. Think I'll call the local Apple Store to see if they have a demo model I can go in and play with before actually purchasing it.
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post #3 of 35
2/14/07 at 4:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urza View Post

Hello All!,
Im on the fence about Apple TV, and for one reason, quality of picture.

I am biased, in that I own HDDVD and BRD, so I always want HD this HD that. I do understand Itunes does not have a ton of HD content yet.

So, my question is how will content look on my HD Plasma using Apple TV?

I currently use my iPod with Video hooked up to my HDTV, and the quality seems as good as watching a non-HDTV broadcast, if not better. I feel confident that Apple would not have created a device specifically designed for HDTV if they did not have plans to offer HD content on iTunes.

I'm following Apple TV closely with links and articles on my new blog at couchapple.tv. I think this question and others will be answered very shortly when Apple TV ships. But for now, I find the viewing experience of iTunes downloads on my HDTV quite adequate. Not HD quality, but near standard DVD quality, certainly.

Guy McLimore
couchguy@couchapple.tv
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post #4 of 35
2/14/07 at 5:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymc View Post

I currently use my iPod with Video hooked up to my HDTV, and the quality seems as good as watching a non-HDTV broadcast, if not better. I feel confident that Apple would not have created a device specifically designed for HDTV if they did not have plans to offer HD content on iTunes.

I'm following Apple TV closely with links and articles on my new blog at couchapple.tv. I think this question and others will be answered very shortly when Apple TV ships. But for now, I find the viewing experience of iTunes downloads on my HDTV quite adequate. Not HD quality, but near standard DVD quality, certainly.

Guy McLimore
couchguy@couchapple.tv

Thanks for your input!

Yea, I just did not want a $300 paperweight streaming sub par SD content.

On another note, do you think Apple will provide content in dif formats now? Maybe a download will look like

The Office(Ipod Video Viewing)

The Office(Apple Tv, higher Rez)

The Office(HD)
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post #5 of 35
2/14/07 at 5:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urza View Post

On another note, do you think Apple will provide content in dif formats now? Maybe a download will look like

The Office(Ipod Video Viewing)

The Office(Apple Tv, higher Rez)

The Office(HD)

No one knows for sure, certainly -- but it would be reasonable and expected. I don't think Apple will drop lower-res versions as long as there are people out here with iPods who want them. And I think availability of HD programming is pretty close to a sure thing.

What I wonder is how they are going to price and offer the content. Will HD versions (which require more bandwidth) be more expensive? If you buy the HD version, do you get the lower-res version for free to use on your iPod? If you buy a low-res version, can you upgrade later, or will you have to buy the content twice?

Another possibility is offering HD versions as streaming rentals, similar to what Netflix is doing. I'm a long time Netflix subscriober, and I tried out the streaming content recently and found it to be a trouble-free experience. But I can't see a way to get that content to Apple TV because it doesn't go through iTunes.

Oh, if we could only see an Apple/Netflix partnership. Heck, Apple should consider buying Netflix outright! That would cement Apple's domination of the Couch Potato world! They could then build Netflix streaming into Apple TV's software (as well as the rental-through-the-mail queue) and let you order and play directly through Apple TV. They'd sell an Apple TV to a huge percentage of Netflix subscribers with that move!

OK, this post is getting expanded into a blog entry at couchapple.tv! That's too good an idea not to share!

Guy McLimore
couchguy@couchapple.tv
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post #6 of 35
2/14/07 at 5:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymc View Post

No one knows for sure, certainly -- but it would be reasonable and expected. I don't think Apple will drop lower-res versions as long as there are people out here with iPods who want them. And I think availability of HD programming is pretty close to a sure thing.

What I wonder is how they are going to price and offer the content. Will HD versions (which require more bandwidth) be more expensive? If you buy the HD version, do you get the lower-res version for free to use on your iPod? If you buy a low-res version, can you upgrade later, or will you have to buy the content twice?

Another possibility is offering HD versions as streaming rentals, similar to what Netflix is doing. I'm a long time Netflix subscriober, and I tried out the streaming content recently and found it to be a trouble-free experience. But I can't see a way to get that content to Apple TV because it doesn't go through iTunes.

Oh, if we could only see an Apple/Netflix partnership. Heck, Apple should consider buying Netflix outright! That would cement Apple's domination of the Couch Potato world! They could then build Netflix streaming into Apple TV's software (as well as the rental-through-the-mail queue) and let you order and play directly through Apple TV. They'd sell an Apple TV to a huge percentage of Netflix subscribers with that move!

OK, this post is getting expanded into a blog entry at couchapple.tv! That's too good an idea not to share!

Guy McLimore
couchguy@couchapple.tv

Ahh yes, I continue the tradition of being a couch potato American LOL

These are all questions I have as well.

Will they take an XBOX Live model? Live charges a little extra for HD content vs SD. I believe HD would sell very well.

As far as rentals, YES!!! Itunes needs to offer rentals like XBOX does. There are movies I would never pay 12+ dollars for, but I would not mind watching it for a rental price, and then the file POOFS! This would also help in my battle of the sexes with the Fiance. She could just RENT chick flicks rather than fill my hard drive up with "How to lose a guy,Must love dogs" arrrg LOL

I wonder if the Apple store will Demo the Apple Tv?
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post #7 of 35
2/14/07 at 5:51am
Quote:


So, my question is how will content look on my HD Plasma using Apple TV? I mainly watch TV episodes, and when they run on a laptop they look decent, but when I increase the screen size the quality tends to take a hit. Won't running TV episodes on my TV with Apple TV look horrible?

If you are talking about iTMS purchases, yes, they'll look horrible, like bad B-movies, unless you have the capacity to delude yourself (like Guy apparently does.) Of course, "horrible" is very subjective. For many of the regulars here who have gotten behind the aTV, it's more about the convenience and simplicity of the aTV as concept trumping video quality than it is about the actual video quality.

Watching current iTMS "near dvd quality" on a big HDTV is like an old Series 2 Tivo recording off analog cable. It makes the substandard Apple dvd player app playing back a full res dvd or video_ts file actually look good.

And not only will this "look like crap" on a decent-sized HDTV it'll sound like crap compared to actual dvds with 5.1/DTS or the HD shows that you recorded yourself via an EyeTV device.

It's pretty safe to assume that an aTV is not going to play back iTMS content better than a core duo mini or Macbook does right now--so if the content remains the same--well, welcome back to the future of analog cable, circa 2000 or so. That's what downloaded iTMS content looks like to me--quite nice on the video iPod, tolerable on a Powerbook and Macbook, beyond that, thank you, no.

Quote:


I'm following Apple TV closely with links and articles on my new blog at couchapple.tv

Quote:


But for now, I find the viewing experience of iTunes downloads on my HDTV quite adequate.

A case of the blind leading the blind?

Quote:


I'm guessing (hoping, actually) that they're prepping higher rez material while we wait for aTV to ship.

Right on, rezzy. Best to wait. aTV is unfulfilled potential, and not just because it hasn't been released yet. Get behind the concept, the hope for a new delivery model, but don't take one step forward and two steps back, critically speaking. Keep your eyes and ears open while embracing the future.
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post #8 of 35
2/14/07 at 6:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefklc View Post

If you are talking about iTMS purchases, yes, they'll look horrible, like bad B-movies, unless you have the capacity to delude yourself (like Guy apparently does.) Of course, "horrible" is very subjective. For many of the regulars here who have gotten behind the aTV, it's more about the convenience and simplicity of the aTV as concept trumping video quality than it is about the actual video quality.

Watching current iTMS "near dvd quality" on a big HDTV is like an old Series 2 Tivo recording off analog cable. It makes the substandard Apple dvd player app playing back a full res dvd or video_ts file actually look good.

And not only will this "look like crap" on a decent-sized HDTV it'll sound like crap compared to actual dvds with 5.1/DTS or the HD shows that you recorded yourself via an EyeTV device.

It's pretty safe to assume that an aTV is not going to play back iTMS content better than a core duo mini or Macbook does right now--so if the content remains the same--well, welcome back to the future of analog cable, circa 2000 or so. That's what downloaded iTMS content looks like to me--quite nice on the video iPod, tolerable on a Powerbook and Macbook, beyond that, thank you, no.





A case of the blind leading the blind?



Right on, rezzy. Best to wait. aTV is unfulfilled potential, and not just because it hasn't been released yet. Get behind the concept, the hope for a new delivery model, but don't take one step forward and two steps back, critically speaking. Keep your eyes and ears open while embracing the future.

Now Now, no fighting people, flame free please. I do however appreciate your comments, as I want to hear all sides.
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post #9 of 35
2/14/07 at 7:43am
Better than "hearing" all sides--hook your Mac laptop up to your HDTV right now--play back a downloaded TV show and tell us what YOU see? I've done it, but then I've had a Mac hooked up to my HDTV for years. Apparently Guy has done it. That same file sent through aTV won't magically appear any better (as long as your Mac laptop is of recent vintage, say an Aluminum Powerbook with DVI or Macbook/Macbook Pro.)

And please, no need for you to share concern about flaming or fighting, I've been around this forum for a few years and I'm treating Guy with kid gloves. Anyone who has an HDTV larger than, say, 32", and doesn't see huge differences between an iTMS download and that same show on a commercial dvd or in high def recorded via OTA or QAM, has a problem somewhere in their chain.

For someone like yourself who already has an HD-DVD and a Blu-ray player--who already has had their awareness raised--I suspect you'll find it very difficult to support aTV primarily in terms of its "adequate" video quality. No need to wait--hook your Mac up to your plasma and playback something from iTMS--how does it look to you?

Just talking pure video quality on an HDTV--which was your original issue--and not weighing other factors drawing people in like convenience and simplicity, which undoubtedly will be huge drawing cards.
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post #10 of 35
2/14/07 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urza View Post

On another note, do you think Apple will provide content in dif formats now? Maybe a download will look like

The Office(Ipod Video Viewing)

The Office(Apple Tv, higher Rez)

The Office(HD)

Again; not yet. I've been watching that real close, lately. If you select a title without purchasing, they typically say something like:

Title of Movie or Episode............Year of release

File Size (Gig/mb).....................Format: Widescreen/Full


No options for various resolutions yet. I'll be genuinely excited when that happens.
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post #11 of 35
2/14/07 at 8:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefklc View Post

Better than "hearing" all sides--hook your Mac laptop up to your HDTV right now--play back a downloaded TV show and tell us what YOU see? I've done it, but then I've had a Mac hooked up to my HDTV for years. Apparently Guy has done it. That same file sent through aTV won't magically appear any better (as long as your Mac laptop is of recent vintage, say an Aluminum Powerbook with DVI or Macbook/Macbook Pro.)

And please, no need for you to share concern about flaming or fighting, I've been around this forum for a few years and I'm treating Guy with kid gloves. Anyone who has an HDTV larger than, say, 32", and doesn't see huge differences between an iTMS download and that same show on a commercial dvd or in high def recorded via OTA or QAM, has a problem somewhere in their chain.

For someone like yourself who already has an HD-DVD and a Blu-ray player--who already has had their awareness raised--I suspect you'll find it very difficult to support aTV primarily in terms of its "adequate" video quality. No need to wait--hook your Mac up to your plasma and playback something from iTMS--how does it look to you?

Just talking pure video quality on an HDTV--which was your original issue--and not weighing other factors drawing people in like convenience and simplicity, which undoubtedly will be huge drawing cards.

I agree that it was the convenience factor you are talking about that was a big draw. But I was able to pause and ask the right questions. I just did not see how it would all of a sudden look better on my plasma, unless the file was encoded differently.

So now the question is, will Itunes offer better quality files like HD? How can they not? It sounds like it has a little future proof built in. If they can just offer content in both SD and HD like XBOX live, then I am in.
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post #12 of 35
2/14/07 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urza View Post

So now the question is, will Itunes offer better quality files like HD? How can they not? It sounds like it has a little future proof built in. If they can just offer content in both SD and HD like XBOX live, then I am in.

That indeed is the important question. And I agree that at some point Apple will have to go HD (720P). However I think that if we expect it to happen the day AppleTV ships, we may be in for a big disappointment.

For one thing, the resolution may depend on the content providers -- and a few of them are totally snake-bitten. Look at the pathetic fashion in which movies are trickling out on iTunes. They are terrified of Wallmart, of undercutting their own DVD sales, of piracy, of Apple becoming an all powerful monopoly. A joke -- except for the last item -- but we have to live their insecurities.

Not to mention living with Apple's penchant for simplicity (having two separate downloads will complicate things and they may not go for it) or Apple's bandwidth costs/reliabilty and server costs.

As things stand I will be ecstatic to get 480P (480x720) on aTV release day, and wouldn't expect 720P for another year or two. Hope I'm wrong.
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post #13 of 35
2/14/07 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymc View Post

Another possibility is offering HD versions as streaming rentals, similar to what Netflix is doing.

This is a very bad idea at this time. Not the rental part, but the streaming part. Early reports from Netflix users talk about how the streaming server tries to guage bandwidth, then throttle the stream resolution (data rate) accordingly. This is just one problem: allowing a server to modulate resolution, period. If I buy/rent /stream an HD program, I want it to be 100% guaranteed original file. Not some watered-down unpredictable HD-Lite.

Then this problem with Netflix leads us to the next problem. And that is with how streaming is currently implemented over disparate networks and bandwidth problems. After seeing the Netflix streaming problems with SD, one can only conclude that they will be much worse with HD resolutions. Until streaming technology/bandwidth delivery becomes more robust, or an alternative strategy for streaming becomes available, a solution like Netflix's current one will be problematic. The issues of net neutrality and bandwidth provider chokes/priorities/caps weighs heavy here, and need to be resolved before any system can be effective. Downloads are predictable vs. streams.

On the other hand, running HD out via a Quicktime quick-start file, that allows for a large enough buffer to prestart a file before download concludes, offers a middle ground between true streaming, and having to download a file completely before playback can ensue. Of course, Apple has the option to unveil a new technology for delivery here with the appleTV, but my bets are that it won't. Apple incrementalism (painfully) at work here. Likewise the issue of 720p being available at appleTV launch.
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post #14 of 35
2/14/07 at 1:39pm
When Apple shipped the iPod 5.5 generation, at once iTMS video downloads went from 320x240 to 640x480, and iPod 5 generation devices received a firmware update to unlock the ability to playback the higher resolution material.

Since AppleTV doesnt even offer an S-Video connection (only component and HDMI), they are gearing this device for enhanced defintion and high definition television owners. Its essentially a high def video iPod for your television -- so it is reasonable to speculate and expect that day and date of release, iTunes Store videos will be available in high definition.

You people just like to argue.
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post #15 of 35
2/14/07 at 2:16pm
Quote:


Its essentially a high def video iPod for your television -- so it is reasonable to speculate and expect that day and date of release, iTunes Store videos will be available in high definition

It is?

We all need some of what you're smoking...
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post #16 of 35
2/14/07 at 2:28pm
Not to mention there are 3rd party ipod firmware that allow you to play things such as flac and other unsupported files on current ipods.

Bets are that if apple won't support various things ... some hacker will find a way to make the apple tv do it. You got to remember its essentially a small computer (has hard drive, ram and a cpu).

Might be a better alternative to the mac mini ....
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post #17 of 35
2/14/07 at 2:32pm
They had to put component and HDMI on it. Everyone's TV composite connection is already in use with the Wii !!
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post #18 of 35
2/14/07 at 3:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildrock View Post

This is a very bad idea at this time. Not the rental part, but the streaming part. Early reports from Netflix users talk about how the streaming server tries to guage bandwidth, then throttle the stream resolution (data rate) accordingly. This is just one problem: allowing a server to modulate resolution, period. If I buy/rent /stream an HD program, I want it to be 100% guaranteed original file. Not some watered-down unpredictable HD-Lite....

I have to strongly disagree here. I have actually watched quite a bit of Netflix now, and I think it's great. It is incredibly convenient, and IMO it is the future.

I have always had the highest rating from the Netflix server, and the quality has been decent. Better than my Dish CNN (SD) feed, softer than a good DVD (but then some of the supposedly HD feeds from Dish are softer than a good DVD.) Not fantastic, but definitely watchable on 42" and 50" plasmas.

The bottom line why Netflix is a total winner: I pay them $20 or so a month to be able to keep 3 rental DVDs at home (they also rent HD formats, but I am fine with a good DVD for now.) So, I get to see the movies I really want on physical DVDs, in DVD quality. But I also get 18 hours a month to instantaneously stream additional content, and see movies I may not actually bother to rent. Some of them may suck, some of them may be great. The instantaneous streaming gives me the ability to "movie-surf," and not be stuck with a bad selection.

On balance, I personally like this flat-fee rental model much, much better, than any of the download models, particularly the ones which force me to pay $10-$20 per movie, for severely restricted content (and this includes Apple TV.)

While I don't think the quality is bad, if you want better PQ, write to you congressional representative: In the US we have spent billions subsidizing the cable and phone companies' promises of 40MBs pipelines and years after the supposed roll out we are still stuck at 6MBs down/ 750Kbs up. At the same time, places like Japan and Korea already have 100MBs up and down pipelines going to consumers, for the same or less $$, than most here pay for ADSL.
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post #19 of 35
2/14/07 at 3:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntnyMD View Post

When Apple shipped the iPod 5.5 generation, at once iTMS video downloads went from 320x240 to 640x480, and iPod 5 generation devices received a firmware update to unlock the ability to playback the higher resolution material.

Since AppleTV doesnt even offer an S-Video connection (only component and HDMI), they are gearing this device for enhanced defintion and high definition television owners. Its essentially a high def video iPod for your television -- so it is reasonable to speculate and expect that day and date of release, iTunes Store videos will be available in high definition.

You people just like to argue.

But speculation is all it is.

This is what drives me nuts about some companies. Why not announce that the better rez stuff will be up on Itunes on the day of release? Would that not sell more content and units? Instead I have to drop 300 bucks on something that "may" happen. While I admit the HDMI and other goodies would indicate that would happen, how about just a plain "were working on it, its coming soon"?
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post #20 of 35
2/14/07 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntnyMD View Post

When Apple shipped the iPod 5.5 generation, at once iTMS video downloads went from 320x240 to 640x480, and iPod 5 generation devices received a firmware update to unlock the ability to playback the higher resolution material.

Since AppleTV doesnt even offer an S-Video connection (only component and HDMI), they are gearing this device for enhanced defintion and high definition television owners. Its essentially a high def video iPod for your television -- so it is reasonable to speculate and expect that day and date of release, iTunes Store videos will be available in high definition.

You people just like to argue.

The points you make are soundly valid, and I'm not disagreeing. But we're just having some spirited speculation, that's all.
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post #21 of 35
2/14/07 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urza View Post

Thanks for your input!

Yea, I just did not want a $300 paperweight streaming sub par SD content.

On another note, do you think Apple will provide content in dif formats now? Maybe a download will look like

The Office(Ipod Video Viewing)

The Office(Apple Tv, higher Rez)

The Office(HD)

Well I did see 'The Office' clips on the AppleTV at MacWorld, on some Sony LCD HDTVs that didn't look too bad. Just a bit more blocky than an SD DVD. But certainly passable for the casual viewer (and certainly better than the SD I can get with my local provider--Comcast, or D* when I had it). Chefklc, is right that after watching your various HD discs the '480' iTunes shows won't look very good, but, hopefully the example of the HD trailers will be what they'll shoot for. So, I think the AppleTV will largely be recommended for its connivence, not necessarily its video quality. I am disappointed by the lack of audio options, but, don't immediately condemn it like chefklc does since he seems to value channels (quantity) over quality (they're all compressed audio).
But, since Apple has be so good at leak control I suspect we won't know until we see one for ourselves.
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post #22 of 35
2/14/07 at 8:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

I have to strongly disagree here. I have actually watched quite a bit of Netflix now, and I think it's great. It is incredibly convenient, and IMO it is the future.

I wasn't try to imply that your situation doesn't work for you. But it may not work as well for others due to the inherent weaknesses in the streaming model with different bandwidths on different networks, technically. These weaknesses worsen as the content resolution moves to HD. It's not that I think streaming is a bad idea. I like the streaming model, though the delivery mode used by Netflix isn't the best. There are other outfits working on streaming tech, like U-verse and other forms of ipTV, that might provide some good solutions. And I think both rentals and purchase-to-own are good models. I think all three need to be built out. Choice is good. And more bandwidth. P2P 2 the people!
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post #23 of 35
2/15/07 at 5:16am
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I am disappointed by the lack of audio options, but, don't immediately condemn it like chefklc does since he seems to value channels (quantity) over quality (they're all compressed audio).

You're usually one of the more sane and helpful members around here, erik, so I'm going to resist over-reacting to this apparent slight.

You're not really saying that one wouldn't hear significant differences between an immersive and clear DTS surround track--pick anything, Chicago, Alien, Black Hawk Down--and a 2.0 track or 2.0 processed into Dolby ProLogic from same--just because they're all compressed?

It isn't about channels, it's about sound. I'm as willing as the next person to give audio from downloaded H.264 and MPEG-4 a chance on its own terms, but I'm certainly not eager to route everything I already have with 5.1, either from dvd or HD, though iTunes to hear some dumbed down version of what the director originally intended.

With something like 'The Office,' granted, 5.1 would be irrelevant regardless of the source media. In fact, for most TV shows, true surround is under-utilized to the point that a show like 'The Unit,' which does take crisp and full advantage of AC-3 in particular scenes, is the exception, not the rule.

But please, don't make the mistake of muddying the audio waters with respect to aTV--I'm paraphrasing here: all movie and tv show audio is compressed anyway so it's not that important--as some have already attempted to muddy the video waters. For anyone with something a little more sophisticated than a set of those cheap self-powered Logitechs in their living room, audio matters--and we should value "channels" AND quality.
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post #24 of 35
2/15/07 at 8:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urza View Post

But speculation is all it is.

This is what drives me nuts about some companies. Why not announce that the better rez stuff will be up on Itunes on the day of release? Would that not sell more content and units? Instead I have to drop 300 bucks on something that "may" happen. While I admit the HDMI and other goodies would indicate that would happen, how about just a plain "were working on it, its coming soon"?

I for one don't expect to see HD material from iTunes any time soon simply because of the file sizes involved. Even with MPEG4 or H.264 encoding, a 40-minute TV show in HD would be 2-3 gigabytes (? I think I calculated this correctly, but I could be wrong), and a 2-hour movie would be in the 6-8 gigabyte range. I can get 6mb/s download times from my cable connection, which is pretty fast for a consumer internet connection, and even at that speed, a 3 gigabyte file would take, what, about an hour to download? And that would be under best-case scenario; if a bunch of people are sharing my node or if my 14-year-old is in the midst of a Warcraft battle, we might be talking 2-3 hours for that 40 minute TV show and 6-8 hours (?) for an HD movie.

So . . . the bandwidth issues seem to be a major question mark. I can see someone doing an HD movie download overnight, or playing an HD movie using streaming with an adequate buffer (assuming your connection is reliable enough not to time out on you), but I can't see this becoming "mainstream" any time soon.

At least, until Verizon FIOS takes over the world . . .

John C.
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post #25 of 35
2/15/07 at 9:04am
Personally I don't mind waiting overnight for a download -- but as I said above, Apple isn't big on giving people choices (in this case a low res/fast download & high res/slooow download),

As for FIOS, bring it on. When is Verizon supposed to make FIOS available in Manhattan? I've been unable to find any news on that subject. They've wired a block or two for propaganda purposes, but nobody is saying when they'll do the entire borough (or at least below 96th St.) I'm not even looking for a "next Tuesday" type of answer -- more on the 2008 or 2011 or 2017 sort of scale...
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post #26 of 35
2/15/07 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

I have to strongly disagree here. I have actually watched quite a bit of Netflix now, and I think it's great. It is incredibly convenient, and IMO it is the future.

I have always had the highest rating from the Netflix server, and the quality has been decent. Better than my Dish CNN (SD) feed, softer than a good DVD (but then some of the supposedly HD feeds from Dish are softer than a good DVD.) Not fantastic, but definitely watchable on 42" and 50" plasmas.

The bottom line why Netflix is a total winner: I pay them $20 or so a month to be able to keep 3 rental DVDs at home (they also rent HD formats, but I am fine with a good DVD for now.) So, I get to see the movies I really want on physical DVDs, in DVD quality. But I also get 18 hours a month to instantaneously stream additional content, and see movies I may not actually bother to rent. Some of them may suck, some of them may be great. The instantaneous streaming gives me the ability to "movie-surf," and not be stuck with a bad selection.

On balance, I personally like this flat-fee rental model much, much better, than any of the download models, particularly the ones which force me to pay $10-$20 per movie, for severely restricted content (and this includes Apple TV.)

While I don't think the quality is bad, if you want better PQ, write to you congressional representative: In the US we have spent billions subsidizing the cable and phone companies' promises of 40MBs pipelines and years after the supposed roll out we are still stuck at 6MBs down/ 750Kbs up. At the same time, places like Japan and Korea already have 100MBs up and down pipelines going to consumers, for the same or less $$, than most here pay for ADSL.

I have been wondering if a streaming service similar to Netflix is part of the long term plan with Appletv, they seem to make moves carefully, with their eyes focused on long term effects. Once they have enough boxes online in enough living rooms, browsing and selecting movies would be like browsing the movie trailers in front row.
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post #27 of 35
2/19/07 at 11:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdcolombo View Post

I for one don't expect to see HD material from iTunes any time soon simply because of the file sizes involved. Even with MPEG4 or H.264 encoding, a 40-minute TV show in HD would be 2-3 gigabytes (? I think I calculated this correctly, but I could be wrong), and a 2-hour movie would be in the 6-8 gigabyte range. I can get 6mb/s download times from my cable connection, which is pretty fast for a consumer internet connection, and even at that speed, a 3 gigabyte file would take, what, about an hour to download? And that would be under best-case scenario; if a bunch of people are sharing my node or if my 14-year-old is in the midst of a Warcraft battle, we might be talking 2-3 hours for that 40 minute TV show and 6-8 hours (?) for an HD movie.

So . . . the bandwidth issues seem to be a major question mark. I can see someone doing an HD movie download overnight, or playing an HD movie using streaming with an adequate buffer (assuming your connection is reliable enough not to time out on you), but I can't see this becoming "mainstream" any time soon.

At least, until Verizon FIOS takes over the world . . .

John C.

I don' think bandwidth would be too bad... iTunes download speeds are fairly fast, I download an entire episode around 500mb in 6-7 minutes... So I am fine waiting and hour or two for 6gb to download... I could see this being an alternative to hd-dvd or bluray if they did offer it... Not for everything but, it would find a market...
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post #28 of 35
2/20/07 at 4:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefklc View Post

If you are talking about iTMS purchases, yes, they'll look horrible, like bad B-movies, unless you have the capacity to delude yourself (like Guy apparently does.) Of course, "horrible" is very subjective. For many of the regulars here who have gotten behind the aTV, it's more about the convenience and simplicity of the aTV as concept trumping video quality than it is about the actual video quality.

Different strokes for different folks, my friend. Of course, I have only recently purchased my first HDTV, so I'm used to watching standard res stuff -- and to me my Media Center recordings moved to iTunes using MyTV ToGo don't look bad played from my iPod with Video. Not DVD quality, but certainly quite watchable. Now, if I want to see Lord of the Rings in all it's full glory, I'll toss on the widescreen DVD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefklc View Post

Watching current iTMS "near dvd quality" on a big HDTV is like an old Series 2 Tivo recording off analog cable.

That makes my point for me. For those of us used to watching analog cable, the quality isn't bad at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefklc View Post

It's pretty safe to assume that an aTV is not going to play back iTMS content better than a core duo mini or Macbook does right now--so if the content remains the same--well, welcome back to the future of analog cable, circa 2000 or so. That's what downloaded iTMS content looks like to me--quite nice on the video iPod, tolerable on a Powerbook and Macbook, beyond that, thank you, no.

Again, different strokes... and I don't expect the iTunes Store to be devoid of HD content very long. Otherwise, why make the Apple Tv not only HD-compatable but HD-dependent! If not available on shipping day, HD from iTunes will be along soon after the Apple TV ends up in stores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefklc View Post

Right on, rezzy. Best to wait. aTV is unfulfilled potential, and not just because it hasn't been released yet. Get behind the concept, the hope for a new delivery model, but don't take one step forward and two steps back, critically speaking. Keep your eyes and ears open while embracing the future.

Of course, if there are no early adopters, there is no second generation. I feel certain the Apple TV will give me a good value now -- and be upgradable for better value later. I'm willing to risk $300 on it at this point, anyway. I certainly expect a much better experience than I had with the Media Center Extenders for Windows.

Guy McLimore couchguy@couchapple.tv
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post #29 of 35
2/20/07 at 4:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefklc View Post

Better than "hearing" all sides--hook your Mac laptop up to your HDTV right now--play back a downloaded TV show and tell us what YOU see? I've done it, but then I've had a Mac hooked up to my HDTV for years. Apparently Guy has done it. That same file sent through aTV won't magically appear any better (as long as your Mac laptop is of recent vintage, say an Aluminum Powerbook with DVI or Macbook/Macbook Pro.)

No disagreement here. The only way to know what is right for you is to look for yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefklc View Post

And please, no need for you to share concern about flaming or fighting, I've been around this forum for a few years and I'm treating Guy with kid gloves. Anyone who has an HDTV larger than, say, 32", and doesn't see huge differences between an iTMS download and that same show on a commercial dvd or in high def recorded via OTA or QAM, has a problem somewhere in their chain.

I never said there were no differences. I said I found the result quite watchable. You are painting things too black-and-white. And, my vision is OK and my "chain" is fine, thanks for the concern...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefklc View Post

For someone like yourself who already has an HD-DVD and a Blu-ray player--who already has had their awareness raised--I suspect you'll find it very difficult to support aTV primarily in terms of its "adequate" video quality. No need to wait--hook your Mac up to your plasma and playback something from iTMS--how does it look to you?

Just talking pure video quality on an HDTV--which was your original issue--and not weighing other factors drawing people in like convenience and simplicity, which undoubtedly will be huge drawing cards.

And that may be -- for you. I agree -- see for yourself. If the viewing experience is not to your liking, don't buy an Apple TV right away.

Guy McLimore (couchguy@couchapple.tv)
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post #30 of 35
2/20/07 at 5:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefklc View Post

It is?

We all need some of what you're smoking...

You know, you seem like a really knowledgable person -- one worth knowing and listening to around here. You'd have so much more weight behind your words if you could lay off the sarcasm just a touch.

HD from Apple isn't a sure thing immediately... but it's reasoned speculation based on good observation. If you disagree, fine. I, for one, think you make some really good points -- and as someone new to this forum, I'm very interested in what you have to say. I wish, though, you'd try to be a little less abrasive about it.

Let's start over. Hey, my name is Guy. Howya doin'?

Guy McLimore (couchguy@couchapple.tv)
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