or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › ***Official HSU owners/support thread!***
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

***Official HSU owners/support thread!*** - Page 55

post #1621 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

To run the eq to flatten out the final response of how the subs interact with each other in the room, here's what I would do:

--With the sub off, calibrate the MBM to the same level as the speakers
--With the MBM off, and the subs' xo switched off, calibrate them to the same level as the MBM and the speakers (since you have two, run them at the same time for calibrating, but when adjust so the gain knob is same for both of them)
--The above two steps match the level of the two subs to the same level, because you are matching their output at the same frequencies in the sub test tone
--Engage the subs' xo, turn all subs on, and calibrate the combined output of the sub and the MBM to match the level of the speakers
--Run the auto-eq
--Re-run the test tones to see if you need to readjust the sub level based on the auto-eq making cuts to frequencies (which will bring down your overall sub SPL level). You may not need to do this if part of the process includes setting the speaker/sub levels automatically as well.


You can eq individual subs separately, but when you introduce the output from all the subs, it probably won't be flat anymore due to the acoustics of the room and how the frequencies boost or cancel each other out at different spots in the room. That's why you eq the combined output.

I don't have an MBM, but when I eq my sub (3.2) manually, I run the test tones through the receiver so it goes through the main speakers and the sub. Otherwise I could eq the sub flat, but it wouldn't be flat once the bass from the mains is combined with it (due to the crossover slopes).

After running Audyessy you mention rerun the test tones. What part of the steps above are you talking about. Can you highlight what you mean by this?
post #1622 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

After running Audyessy you mention rerun the test tones. What part of the steps above are you talking about. Can you highlight what you mean by this?


Bori,

What I mean is, when you run the eq (after matching the volume of the sub and MBM), which will cut down various frequencies to flatten out the response, the volume or SPL level may be reduced. Unless Audyssey does an auto-setup to level match all the channels again, you will want to run the sub test tone again to make sure the subs are playing at the proper level compared to the speakers.

If the auto eq made a bunch of cuts, maybe the overall SPL is down 3dB. So re-do the test tone to make sure the subs are playing at the correct SPL level. Since the output should be much flatter, when you raise the level to the correct SPL, you may have much more bass slam since all frequencies will be hitting equally hard, not just a few (which throw off the calibration).
post #1623 of 6210
It did lower the spl down to 72 dbs. Run this again?

--With the sub off, calibrate the MBM to the same level as the speakers
--With the MBM off, and the subs' xo switched off, calibrate them to the same level as the MBM and the speakers (since you have two, run them at the same time for calibrating, but when adjust so the gain knob is same for both of them)
--The above two steps match the level of the two subs to the same level, because you are matching their output at the same frequencies in the sub test tone
post #1624 of 6210
Yes, run through that process again.

The eq cut down frequencies, which reduced the overall SPL. Level match the low and high subs (MBM and sub) again, xo off (since you don't know where the frequencies that were cut by the eq are), then engage xo and calibrate combined output to 75dB or whatever level you calibrate to.


After eq'ing, it's possible that you may notice less "boom" or slam. If you had one or a few big peaks, you may have gotten used to how certain bass notes sounded with those peaks, which may have sounded cool. But with flat(ter) bass, all of the bass notes should hit equally hard, not just a few. Once you get used to it, it sounds great. If your Audyssey has settings for a house curve or something like that (that leaves the natural rise as you get closer to 20Hz), you may want to engage that to maintain the extra oomph of the very deep low end. Since it takes higher SPL to seem to be at the same "volume level" the lower you go.
post #1625 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Yes, run through that process again.

The eq cut down frequencies, which reduced the overall SPL. Level match the low and high subs (MBM and sub) again, xo off (since you don't know where the frequencies that were cut by the eq are), then engage xo and calibrate combined output to 75dB or whatever level you calibrate to.


After eq'ing, it's possible that you may notice less "boom" or slam. If you had one or a few big peaks, you may have gotten used to how certain bass notes sounded with those peaks, which may have sounded cool. But with flat(ter) bass, all of the bass notes should hit equally hard, not just a few. Once you get used to it, it sounds great. If your Audyssey has settings for a house curve or something like that (that leaves the natural rise as you get closer to 20Hz), you may want to engage that to maintain the extra oomph of the very deep low end. Since it takes higher SPL to seem to be at the same "volume level" the lower you go.

Cyberbi, Your explanation is correct and I have done it the wrong way. I just got used to alot of bass on the lower end. I redid my setup last night and the audio track is much more detailed now including the bass. It takes awhile to get used to NOT having more bass (loudness) from the true sub but in the long run your total sound track is more balanced (flat) and sounds much, much better. I have the Anti Mode and with it I can engaged a bump in the 15-25hz of 4-6 db. I do this sometimes, it all depends on the bass of the media that I'm listening to. I have asked Dr.PainMD to include your explanation of setting up a true sub with a MBM on his thread for Home Theater setup.

Thanx, Bill
post #1626 of 6210
Awesome. Great to hear you were able to get an improvement in your already stellar system. To say I'm jealous of your subs is an understatement.

It's always great to get an improvement in sound without having to spend any money, eh? That's the obsession I've been on for a few years now, always tweaking my speakers and subs, room, calibration.
post #1627 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Awesome. Great to hear you were able to get an improvement in your already stellar system. To say I'm jealous of your subs is an understatement.

It's always great to get an improvement in sound without having to spend any money, eh? That's the obsession I've been on for a few years now, always tweaking my speakers and subs, room, calibration.

Yes, even with my entry level JBL E90's it sounds like I have a complete new system. Right now I'm listening to Manuel Iman's "Flowers in the Desert" album via the Home Media program on my pio '94 from my computer and the tracks are so clear. By the way, my receiver xover is set at 100hz and it sounds much more detailed than at 80hz.

Bill
post #1628 of 6210
Hey Cyberbri,

I finished the calibration process and ran REW and now my graph looks very good. I will post it later when I get home. The only thing is my low end is very high due to co-locating dual 3.3 subs in the corner. I always had a problem with the trailer for Hitman on blu ray. There is a scene in the trailer that would cause my subs to sound distored. I played the trailer again and today after the calibration and my subs handled that scene like a champ!! Thanks for the advice its great to learn new things that will improve our HT performance.
post #1629 of 6210
Bill, bori,

Glad to hear it!


Bill, are you now running your mains as small? I thought you were running them large with "Plus"...



Yeah, you can definitely experiment with xo point between mains and sub. 80Hz isn't always the best for every situation. For example, based on the room dimensions, where the speakers and sub are in the room versus the seating position, an 80Hz crossover might produce a dip around 80 or 90Hz (or elsewhere) due to "phase" (time differences). But switching the crossover to 100Hz might totally fix that problem so the transition is a lot smoother. Even though the mains technically can play well even below 80Hz.

You can hook it all up, do the standard settings, even use auto-cal or do it manually with a meter. That will sound fine to most people. But if you take the time to measure, tweak, and experiment, you can really get a lot of extra performance and sound quality out of your room and equipment. It's really amazing. And addicting!

I'm a big advocate of room treatments too, and bass traps can really bring that extra detail and texture out in the bass. I have a friend with a dedicated basement room for music. On the small side, 13' wide and 18' deep. He had a great setup of Paradigms, even bought a McIntosh 2-channel stereo amp. But the sound was horrible, with shrill ringing and highs. He thought it might be his speakers. I lent him some of my acoustic panels, showed him where to place them, and it transformed the sound immediately. He got some panels, and went farther by adding corner tri-trap bass traps from floor to ceiling in the front corners (from GIK Acoustics, where I got mine). Completely transformed his room, and changed his whole perspective on sound and value of equipment versus "getting the room right" first before pouring money into better stuff.

Anyway, beyond tweaking is the next level, room treatments.
post #1630 of 6210
I reset my setup last night like I said and am running my speakers as SMALL. That's why I'm so excited about the sound now. I did do a spl on the freq range using the supplied CD from HSU. I have a 4-8 spl dip at 25hz and 10 spl dip at 60hz. It probably has to do with the two large openings, 9 feet open to kitchen, wall of bookcases for 14 feet, then 5 feet open to hallway on the left side of the room (wall length is 28 ft.). This is the problem with having your setup in the living room, big openings and WAF. I don't have a decent sound card or the inclination to learn anything lengthy for graphing. With this, the sound is great.

Bill
post #1631 of 6210
I am considering some tower speakers and center from BIC to complement my VTF-3.3 and MBM set up. Do any of you guys have BIC speakers? I hear they were designed by Dr. Hsu himself.

Quote:


All Acoustech models were designed and engineered with the assistance of the highly regarded Hsu Research engineering team.

http://www.bicacoustechspeakers.com/...d=306&offset=1
http://www.bicacoustechspeakers.com/...d=307&offset=1

Is there any advantage to using ALL towers for fronts, surr, and back surr speakers?
post #1632 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by King_David View Post

I am considering some tower speakers and center from BIC to complement my VTF-3.3 and MBM set up. Do any of you guys have BIC speakers? I hear they were designed by Dr. Hsu himself.



http://www.bicacoustechspeakers.com/...d=306&offset=1
http://www.bicacoustechspeakers.com/...d=307&offset=1

Is there any advantage to using ALL towers for fronts, surr, and back surr speakers?

Is there a point to having tower speakers if all your sound below 80hz will be handled by the subwoofer? I'm thinking about selling my towers for HSU HB-1's all around and a HC-1. My current speakers are taking up too much real estate in my living room and I think smaller bookshelf speakers from Dr. HSU will transform my living room into a neater living space, plus I can easily remove the speakers from the living room if necessary...banana plugs rule!
post #1633 of 6210
I thought I would post my REW graph after using Cyberbri's calibration instructions. I know its a little high in the low end because the dual 3.3 subs are co-located in the corner.
LL
post #1634 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

I thought I would post my REW graph after using Cyberbri's calibration instructions. I know its a little high in the low end because the dual 3.3 subs are co-located in the corner.

Take a look at my graph. Does this mean the 3.3 turbos go below 15hz?
post #1635 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

Take a look at my graph. Does this mean the 3.3 turbos go below 15hz?

you can extend your graph to 10hz. but it does look like you have room gain up the wazoo.
post #1636 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbit View Post

you can extend your graph to 10hz. but it does look like you have room gain up the wazoo.

What do you mean by room gain? How can I control it if I dont have any other spot to place them?
post #1637 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

What do you mean by room gain? How can I control it if I dont have any other spot to place them?

room gain is when the room boosts the low frequencies ... IMO, it's a good thing

have you tried measuring with the 3.3 in max output mode?
if you have an EQ, maybe a small cut at 20hz?
post #1638 of 6210
Here goes a different graph with similiar results.
LL
post #1639 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbit View Post

room gain is when the room boosts the low frequencies ... IMO, it's a good thing

have you tried measuring with the 3.3 in max output mode?
if you have an EQ, maybe a small cut at 20hz?

So by the other graph I provided it shows my sub digs down to the lower teens starting around 10hz? Correct?
post #1640 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

So by the other graph I provided it shows my sub digs down to the lower teens starting around 10hz? Correct?

Your subs seem to play to about 10Hz in your room, not bad, not bad at all
post #1641 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

Your subs seem to play to about 10Hz in your room, not bad, not bad at all

WOW that is great my dual 3.3 turbo's with MBM-12 are awesome. Here I am thinking they only go down to 16hz. I guess I have no need for the ULS-15.
post #1642 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

Here goes a different graph with similiar results.


Looks really good. If you could cut that 6-7dB peak at 50Hz, you'd be doing extremely well.

But when you change the the paramaters or dimensions of the graph, it can make it look better or worse.

Try to output the graph again with these same dimensions - vertical/SPL from about 35 to 115, and 10Hz to 200Hz horizontally.

This is my 3.2 eq'd with my mains, 1/3 octave smoothing


And with 1/12 octave smoothing
post #1643 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Looks really good. If you could cut that 6-7dB peak at 50Hz, you'd be doing extremely well.

But when you change the the paramaters or dimensions of the graph, it can make it look better or worse.

Try to output the graph again with these same dimensions - vertical/SPL from about 35 to 115, and 10Hz to 200Hz horizontally.

This is my 3.2 eq'd with my mains, 1/3 octave smoothing


And with 1/12 octave smoothing

Could that be due to the MBM-12 kicking in at that frequency? How would I lower that?
post #1644 of 6210
Would a powerful pair of front speakers, and a powerful center improve the way your Hsu sub would sound? Does it make your sub sound better, or does it improve everything overall?
post #1645 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

Could that be due to the MBM-12 kicking in at that frequency? How would I lower that?

You could try raising the low end xo on the MBM (if that's possible) to 55~60Hz. Or try lowering the sub's xo a bit below 50Hz. If that doesn't fix it, you could just have some room gain there that boosts that frequency range a bit.
post #1646 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by King_David View Post

Would a powerful pair of front speakers, and a powerful center improve the way your Hsu sub would sound? Does it make your sub sound better, or does it improve everything overall?


Powerful in what way? A separate amp can give you more power and dynamic range than running speakers off a receiver.

To get the sub itself to sound better, treat the corners of the room with bass traps of some kind, like wedge-shape tri-traps that fit into the corners. Difference is night and day, so much more clarity and detail to the bass.
post #1647 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Powerful in what way? A separate amp can give you more power and dynamic range than running speakers off a receiver.

To get the sub itself to sound better, treat the corners of the room with bass traps of some kind, like wedge-shape tri-traps that fit into the corners. Difference is night and day, so much more clarity and detail to the bass.

Also, decouple the sub from the floor via a Auralex SubDude or similar item. Depending on your receiver, try to get the right mix with the sub volume vs the receiver's sub db. The proper mix depends on how detailed the bass sounds.

Bill
post #1648 of 6210
If I decide to change the crossover on my Dual 3.3 subs to 60hz instead of 50hz which I have now. Do I need to recalibrate and run Audyessy again?
post #1649 of 6210
You don't have to, but it would be a good idea.

Assuming you had the crossover disabled to set the level of the 3.3s (the correct way to set the sub level when using with an MBM), now you can just run the auto-eq again, then set the sub out level in the receiver.
post #1650 of 6210
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

You don't have to, but it would be a good idea.

Assuming you had the crossover disabled to set the level of the 3.3s (the correct way to set the sub level when using with an MBM), now you can just run the auto-eq again, then set the sub out level in the receiver.

cyberbri, I was following you up to the point "then set the sub out level in the receiver".

I have 2 MBMs up front with mains and only 1 3 3 behind LP. I have been following your points about using test tones and setting true sub xo out/off and it indeed makes a difference.

Can you elaborate on the point above?

Thanks,

Tracy
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › ***Official HSU owners/support thread!***