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Interest in Lumagen Radiance Pro w/HDMI 1.3?

post #1 of 24
2/20/07 at 8:11pm
Thread Starter 
What if Lumagen pulled a rabbit out of their hat and added HDMI 1.3 chips into a pro version of their upcoming scaler?

What would people see for the benefits aside from digital audio pass through?

Richard
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post #2 of 24
2/20/07 at 8:38pm
I'd get one for sure!
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post #3 of 24
2/20/07 at 9:42pm
Where do I send my money?
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post #4 of 24
2/20/07 at 9:45pm
Alright Richard, what do you know that you are not telling us?
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post #5 of 24
2/20/07 at 10:06pm
Thread Starter 
PeterS,

I'd have to kill you if I told you. At least for now. Basically I am wondering what people think the advantages would be if you added HDMI 1.3 to the Radiance. Aside from audio pass through for the new lossless specs, and the fact that bit rate processing for video would already be high, what else would we want?

Oh and cripes that's a nice theater you have.

Richard
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post #6 of 24
2/21/07 at 1:46am
HDMI 1.3 is already in the pieline as a future update for Radiance. THere is no silicon available just now, when there is there Jim has said there will be an update available for Radiance XD owners. Perhaps we should let them concentrate on getting the current unit out the door....

Gordon
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post #7 of 24
2/21/07 at 1:49am
The main advantage I see is that the processed video data doesn't need to be dithered down to 8 bit RGB. Instead it could be passed on to the display/projector in high bit depth RGB (provided the display/projector has HDMI 1.3, too). This can help cutting down banding/dithering effects. Alternatively I believe HDMI 1.3 allows 1080p120 output, which might be interesting for future displays/projectors, too. 120Hz output makes sense because it allows to output both video and film content without 3:2 motion judder. The display would not have to resync everytime the Lumagen switches between video and film content. I'm not aware of any display which can accept 120Hz input yet, though. What I don't know is whether HDMI 1.3 allows 1080p120 with more than 8 bit RGB.
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post #8 of 24
2/21/07 at 5:29am
zero benefit for me.

HDMI 1.3 is mostly helpful with regards to audio (i.e., use a good audio processor or AVR for that).

The source benefit is negligable for the foreseeable future. I would think it mattered more for HTPCs than for real world content.
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post #9 of 24
2/21/07 at 7:03am
Great! But not if it it delays the expected release and Beta dates.
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post #10 of 24
2/21/07 at 7:32am
Thread Starter 
Nope.

Richard
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post #11 of 24
2/21/07 at 11:20am
What is more important is 1080p24sf support in the currently planned RadianceXD - is this going to be part of the beta release, or only in the final release?

Thanks
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post #12 of 24
2/23/07 at 2:38am
No HDMI 1.3 no purchase. As simple as that.
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post #13 of 24
2/23/07 at 2:53am
Then you will not be buying anything for a while as the HDMI 1.3 silicon is not available...seems foolish not to purchase a device that will be upgradable as you can enjoy all of its benefits much sooner and still get HDMI 1.3 when available...
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post #14 of 24
2/23/07 at 5:11pm
You should be asking if an upgrade to HDMI 2.0 will be possible. The news about HDMI upgradability should be more than enough assurance to buy the thing. Ditto about 24 coming sooner or later. From what I understand, the first run of betas has been presold and who knows if the feature will be ready by the second run. That's why it will be limited beta for quite some time. Beta purchasers shouldn't worry. Lumagen always delivers. Like a fine wine, time is needed for maturity.
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post #15 of 24
2/24/07 at 2:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

Then you will not be buying anything for a while as the HDMI 1.3 silicon is not available...seems foolish not to purchase a device that will be upgradable as you can enjoy all of its benefits much sooner and still get HDMI 1.3 when available...

If they guarantee upgradability to 1.3, ok, sounds fair.
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post #16 of 24
2/24/07 at 2:59am
mhafner,

I simply don't get it, what do you need HDMI 1.3 for?

It's not as if the unit won't work with HDMI 1.3 equipment...
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post #17 of 24
2/24/07 at 5:29am
I think it is something like refusing to buy a piece of gear because it only comes with a black faceplate, not silver.
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post #18 of 24
2/25/07 at 2:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

mhafner,

I simply don't get it, what do you need HDMI 1.3 for?
.

My next projector will have HDMI 1.3 input. My video processor will do processing and the result is > 8 bit precision. I want that precision going to my projector. I also want the option to process TrueHD etc. in an audio processor and have a pass through in the video processor (possibly delay adjusted).
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post #19 of 24
2/25/07 at 3:59am
mhafner,

but your source will be 8 bits, so...

About audio, I completely agree. That's why you should first pass the audio through your A/V receiver (add some lipsync delay, although you probably won't need it as the VXP doesn't have much in the way of delay) and then pass the hdmi through to the VP...

That's what I plan to do...
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post #20 of 24
2/25/07 at 7:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

but your source will be 8 bits, so...

Yeah, but it doesn't *STAY* at 8 bits. The conversion from YCbCr to RGB is already lossy. Then add noise reduction, deinterlacing, scaling and maybe gamma/color correction on top of that, and you'll have video data all over the place. There's a reason why the Gennum and Realta chips internally calculate in 10 bit 4:4:4.
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post #21 of 24
2/26/07 at 4:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

mhafner,

but your source will be 8 bits, so...
.

After processing it's 10 bits or even more when 16 bit Gennum is swapped in. As long as the processing is not all done in the projector I want to get these >= 10 bits into the projector from the video processor. We also don't know when > 8 bit sources become available (you can have that today with material from PCs, digital still cameras, soon digital film cameras) for movies too. 8 bit is not future proof, as much as 720p. Nothing is longer term, but for that price I want more than 8 bit connectivity.
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post #22 of 24
3/1/07 at 5:29am
got it. So, the problem is rounding errors on the output, not the input, IYOs...

Hmm. Interesting, but I'd be interested in seeing if there's a visible difference due to those rounding errors in back-to-back RGB-YUV-RGB digital colorspace conversions.

My gut feeling tells me there would be very little in the way of banding due to rounding errors here.
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post #23 of 24
3/2/07 at 12:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

The main advantage I see is that the processed video data doesn't need to be dithered down to 8 bit RGB. Instead it could be passed on to the display/projector in high bit depth RGB (provided the display/projector has HDMI 1.3, too). This can help cutting down banding/dithering effects. Alternatively I believe HDMI 1.3 allows 1080p120 output, which might be interesting for future displays/projectors, too. 120Hz output makes sense because it allows to output both video and film content without 3:2 motion judder. The display would not have to resync everytime the Lumagen switches between video and film content. I'm not aware of any display which can accept 120Hz input yet, though. What I don't know is whether HDMI 1.3 allows 1080p120 with more than 8 bit RGB.

If I'm not mistaken, my Brillian 6580iFB will accept 120Hz input.
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post #24 of 24
3/2/07 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

got it. So, the problem is rounding errors on the output, not the input, IYOs...
Hmm. Interesting, but I'd be interested in seeing if there's a visible difference due to those rounding errors in back-to-back RGB-YUV-RGB digital colorspace conversions.
My gut feeling tells me there would be very little in the way of banding due to rounding errors here.

Some people also want to do gamma correction and other processing. It is not ideal to go back to 8 bit once you have data in 10 bit and more with real additional precision. How bad it is depends on what you do, what type of source you have and what type of display. If everything is reduced in the display to 8 bit anyway it's probably not worth the effort. But more and more panels have 10 bit and more drivers too.
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