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Poll: Sonic differences between low/mid/high end CD Players are... - Page 9  

post #241 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Just to add another though on top of Chu's.
People do pick and determine audible differences to one component even when the same component is presented over and over, nothing really changed. Human nature to do this. We are wired to look for differences even when there are none we still do it at a high rate.

Having been through a few of these tests (rather than reading someone else's), it IS peer pressure that causes this to happen. The "moderator" pushes people to pick one component over the other all too often.

When the question is posed as difference or no difference, I have never never seen someone voice that there was a difference when the same component was left in the system.

When the question is posed along the line of: "Listen for one component to have better bass, and see if you can discern which it is", then the panel is pre-disposed to hear a difference.

A suggestion: why not do some of your own tests, rather than relying on posting references to out of print articles ?
post #242 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

posting references to out of print articles ?


You are a funny guy, LOL
post #243 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

You are a funny guy, LOL

One of us has to have a sense of humor and enjoy life, and that sure isn't you.
post #244 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssteel01 View Post

Come on now. Of course nobody said that. It's just that a lot of times around here it comes off like you can't possibly enjoy your gear unless it was arrived at via extensive blind comparisons at some predetermined price point that is acceptable for what the product is.

I've never understood how anyone could reasonably come to that impression, as NO ONE has EVER said you can't enjoy your gear unless you chose it via blind test. Obviously such a claim would be absurd. Somehow you confuse skepticism about claims of audible difference, with skepticism about whether someone actually enjoys listening or not. I'd call that confusion bizarre except it seems common maybe as a sort of self-defensive stance that 'anti-skeptics' like to take...kinda like the 'skeptics want to take all the fun out of the hobby' wailing.
It's totally irrational.


Quote:


I know it's just a preference possibly not predicated on any real measurable difference, but I know I like one better than the other.

And there we have it. That's all the qualification I expect, when someone makes claims of audible difference based on the 'usual' method.
post #245 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssteel01 View Post

Hmmm. If you were really putting together a statistical survey, that would be an interesting baseline. Might be an interesting comparison to see if there's a particularly level of sensitivity that correlates with hearing a difference. I don't suppose that it would be a particularly surprising finding. Not saying that I have that ability at all though.

Actually,lots of 'JND' (just noticeable difference) hearing data does exist. You can look it up!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolut...old_of_hearing
post #246 of 253
Quote:


Having been through a few of these tests (rather than reading someone else's), it IS peer pressure that causes this to happen. The "moderator" pushes people to pick one component over the other all too often.

Well, is this blind or sighted? If sighted, it can be called peer pressure or another term which some call 'priming'. In this case, you've been primed by being provided certain information be it the manufacturer, reviews, appearance, construction, whatever and that lodges itself in your subconcious which then influences your decision. Also, see my recent post in 'Audio Theory' that references a Wall Street Journal (WSJ) article.

Quote:


When the question is posed as difference or no difference, I have never never seen someone voice that there was a difference when the same component was left in the system.

Craig, if you've got some buddies who are pretty disposed to cable differences, you can try this for yourself. Just fake the switch, but you've got to do a good job at creating the illusion and they mustn't know that you're a sneaky fellow...like me.

Quote:


When the question is posed along the line of: "Listen for one component to have better bass, and see if you can discern which it is", then the panel is pre-disposed to hear a difference.

Also consider that they may indeed hear better bass because their auditory focus has changed which alters the information that makes its way into the brain.

Quote:


A suggestion: why not do some of your own tests, rather than relying on posting references to out of print articles ?

Many of the articles cited come from journals and have been replicated by others. Really Craig, for that matter, screw the Pythogorean Theorem, The laws of thermodynamics, and Kirchoff's Laws.
post #247 of 253
Jesus Craig, why did you become what you accuse others of? Me, I'm out of this thread.
post #248 of 253
Thread Starter 
Day 14 Results:

Quote:


Here is your chance to set the record straight:
  1. real and significant: You can tell that one is better
  2. real and minor: different but not enough to care sonically
  3. non-existent: I buy the cheapest cuz it makes no difference
  4. something I'm looking into: Have no present opinion on



After 2 weeks and about 240 posts (17 posts/day), we have the following top posters making up 185 posts or 77% of the discussion.

Code:
        craigsub        63      (minor)
         Chu  Gai       33      (minor)
        CharlesJ        29      (no vote)
         krabapple      23      (no vote)
        PULLIAMM        13      (minor)
         Ron Party      12      (no vote)
        ssteel01        12      (no vote)
My "two cent" Synopsis...:
  1. None of the Users that voted "Real and Significant" is in the top poster group. Seems like the individuals are secure in their vote.
  2. User "craigsub" 63 posts have mainly consisted of playing the devil's advocate to the next two top posters ("Chu Gai"[minor] and "CharlesJ" [no vote]) adamant and increasingly particular stance about "correct" DBT tests (Audiogon) cited...there must be something wrong because they heard differences.
    • A bit like taking a particular stance that "two identical twins could not be distinguished from one another based on their voices based upon theoretical reasoning despite never hearing them in person"

  3. "krabapple" (no vote) has his moments and can become quite prolific but I personally have a problem reading 3 consecutive posts by the same person...with the exception of perhaps Jesse Jackson or Martin Luther King.
  4. PULLIAMM repeats his byline based upon his personal experience and he "cannot"
    honestly perceive differences. I truly believe he cannot hear the differences.
  5. "ssteel101" commentary seems to always be insightful and well spoken.

The manufacturers of DVD/CD players can rest easy as at least a larger majority of the population can hear differences compared to the percentage that voted for G.W. B..sh
post #249 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by peakrc View Post

The manufacturers of DVD/CD players can rest easy as at least a larger majority of the population can hear differences compared to the percentage that voted for G.W. Bush

Careful. The mods are cracking down hard on political references these days.
post #250 of 253
[quote=JorgeLopez11]Definitely the differences are REAL and MINOR.

This is true only if you compare 2 low cost and/or 2 high end cd players to themselves. If the differences between a $100.00 player and a $3,000.00 player are real and minor, I would respectfully always suggest to keep the cheapest gear. I should add to keep myself honest, that sometimes when trying new gear I have found small differences between them, that is until I go back to the lower end player and discover the flaws, then the differences become real and not so minor.

Also when running these tests people should make sure not to use a $100.00 receiver, even though I have found that good speakers, cd players, etc, make an improvement in sound even on the cheapest of systems.
post #251 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by peakrc View Post

I personally have a problem reading 3 consecutive posts by the same person...with the exception of perhaps Jesse Jackson or Martin Luther King.

For my 13th post in this thread, I just felt like this statement was worthy of an encore.
post #252 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by peakrc View Post

My "two cent" Synopsis...:[list=1][*] None of the Users that voted "Real and Significant" is in the top poster group. Seems like the individuals are secure in their vote.[*]User "craigsub" 63 posts have mainly consisted of playing the devil's advocate to the next two top posters ("Chu Gai"[minor] and "CharlesJ" [no vote]) adamant and increasingly particular stance about "correct" DBT tests (Audiogon) cited...there must be something wrong because they heard differences.
  • A bit like taking a particular stance that "two identical twins could not be distinguished from one another based on their voices based upon theoretical reasoning despite never hearing them in person"
[*]
"krabapple" (no vote) has his moments and can become quite prolific but I personally have a problem reading 3 consecutive posts by the same person...with the exception of perhaps Jesse Jackson or Martin Luther King.



You're pretty shameless in the way you spin things.

I think I've made it very clear by now why your poll is fundamentally flawed; my 24 posts criticizing your poll constitute my 'vote'. With luck, readers with longer attention spans than yourself, learned a thing or two from them. And I'm pessimistic at this point that any amount of reasoning can stop you (and now I mean you, plural -- e.g. Craigsub and a few others) from mischaracterizing the 'other side's arguments so you can knock them down more easily.
post #253 of 253
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