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Blu-ray, HD-DVD & SD DVD Comparison Screenshots *WARNING - LARGE PICTURE FILES* - Page 10

post #271 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Whoever did the Spartacus HD DVD should be FIRED!!! Ugh!

Fifth Element is the most disappointing title of all for me. Who approved this? Did they even look at their work before releasing it? No wonder people returned the 1K Blu ray player after watching it. To them its not worth it. No excuses for this one.

I think you should do some 'Sky Captain & the World of Tomorrow' shots. I remember there being alot of heated debate with that one
post #272 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by a.holck View Post

I'm really shocked by those Spartacus grabs. ...Xylon, Are you sure you didnt play the dvd again upconverted?

I doubt it. Spartacus HD-DVD has been panned by many A/V reviewers/publications as being inferior overall even to its Criterion Collection/SD counterpart. Personally, I just think Universal tried to get something for nothing by releasing it on the cheap. Pretty shameful, if you ask me.
post #273 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by tindizzle View Post

Look around the lightning at the bottom.

There is absolutely no macroblocking, NOR posterization in that part of the image either.

There is a slightly squarish look to part of the clouds in that area, which you may have mistaken for macroblocking, but it is a completely random formation of the clouds and does not display the sharp rightangled corners of macroblocking. Neither is there any sign at all of posterization.
post #274 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by totsugeki View Post

I have nothing at stake with MPEG-2. I guess "defaming" is a poor choice of a word. How about "dissing"?

Yes - I "dissed" mpeg2. I admit it, and worse, I'll probably do so again. My name is rdjam and I am a serial-mpeg2-disser and I need help.

Quote:
Here's another example of why comparing different releases to compare codecs is flawed: Spartacus doesn't look too hot. Comparing it to Kingdom of Heaven would result in VC-1 losing to MPEG-2, which obviously wouldn't be the result in a valid comparison (with exactly the same source material). edit: I just realised I'm not following my own piece of advice.

I think you are getting the drift of my approach.

You can't take ONE comparison on it's own to represent the whole story. But making making many comparisons across many different films and codecs, you develop experience at spotting the flaws of each codec and being able to have insight in forming a judgemental opinion.

I would probably say that Casino Royale is the best AVC encode to find itself to ANY of the high def formats, whether BD or HD. However, it is not typical of all AVC encodes on these discs.

As far as Spartacus goes, I don't think that anyone would imply for a minute that any of it's problems are due to the codec used. It's just real bad, with huge amounts of poorly administered dithering.
post #275 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

There is absolutely no macroblocking, NOR posterization in that part of the image either.

There is a slightly squarish look to part of the clouds in that area, which you may have mistaken for macroblocking, but it is a completely random formation of the clouds and does not display the sharp rightangled corners of macroblocking. Neither is there any sign at all of posterization.

Square clouds? lol

Lets make it a little easier for you.
Plenty of blocking and posterization here


Posterization and blocking:
post #276 of 1010
OT: tindizzle, when did Smugmug.com support PNG? Is it for all accounts, or only the premium ones?
post #277 of 1010
Xylon,

Terminator 2 comparision pictures please?? With sugar on top?
post #278 of 1010
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by a.holck View Post

Xylon, Are you sure you didnt play the dvd again upconverted?

Oh yeah I'm sure. Its really that bad. You can rent it if you like.
post #279 of 1010
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tindizzle View Post

Look around the lightning at the bottom.

I honestly looked everywhere in that picture until you pointed it out. The lightning that caused it happened in less than a second so no one was able to see it.
post #280 of 1010
Wow, Spartacus and The Fifth Element both look like crap. Except for the a few noticable things like the stripes on Gary Oldmans jacket in the one shot there is barely a difference between the DVD and the Blu-ray. Certainly doesn't have the WOW factor you should get from hi-def.
post #281 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by tindizzle View Post

Square clouds? lol

Lets make it a little easier for you.
Plenty of blocking and posterization here


Posterization and blocking:

Wow - I got to tell you I don't see what you are talking about on the posterization.

However, there is a very slight trace blocking (two very faint vertical transitions) that is almost impossible to discern and certainly couldn't be noticed by any viewers, since the lightning flash was a couple of frames. And I don't see the posterization you refer to.

In the second picture I see neither posterization, nor blocking...

Just to be sure we don't focus to hard on the imperceptible, I will contrast these two with what I was talking about, which are "very obvious and intrusive flaws":

Mpeg Blocking in Fantastic 4:


and AVC Posterization in Xmen III:


These are very discernable, in comparison, and much more relevant flaws to most viewers.
post #282 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Wow - I got to tell you I don't see what you are talking about on the posterization.

However, there is a very slight trace blocking (two very faint vertical transitions) that is almost impossible to discern and certainly couldn't be noticed by any viewers, since the lightning flash was a couple of frames. And I don't see the posterization you refer to.

In the second picture I see neither posterization, nor blocking...

I went over these pictures many times on 3 different calibrated monitors. The blocking and posterization are there. And from what I've seen, it takes more than a few frames to recover from blocking.
Quote:


Just to be sure we don't focus to hard on the imperceptible, I will contrast these two with what I was talking about, which are "very obvious and intrusive flaws":

Mpeg Blocking in Fantastic 4:


and AVC Posterization in Xmen III:


These are very discernable, in comparison, and much more relevant flaws to most viewers.

I'm not going to deny the blocking in F4, it is dissapointing. You do realize that Jean Grey changes color when she turns into Dark Phoenix right?
post #283 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by tindizzle View Post

I'm not going to deny the blocking in F4, it is dissapointing. You do realize that Jean Grey changes color when she turns into Dark Phoenix right?

You're not implying that the image is just a normal color change, instead of artifacting, are you??
post #284 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by tindizzle View Post

You do realize that Jean Grey changes color when she turns into Dark Phoenix right?

Heh, I don't think he does! :lol:
post #285 of 1010
Phoenix is digitally processed.

"Spartacus" proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the *MASTER* is 99% of the battle.
The codecs are good enough in themselves to have little effect on the final product...some posterization here, some macroblocking there is usually the worst case.

So if the fanbois are going to say "Fifth Element = MPEG2 sucks" then VC-1 sucks because of "Spartacus".
post #286 of 1010
...adding to that, it should also put into perspective the oft cited "film is superior to digital" mantra. Analog film can theoretically achieve incredible specs, but the results in actual practice can vary wildly and drastically, in response to its handling. It's not impossible at all that the result is only a fraction of the theoretical.
post #287 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

You're not implying that the image is just a normal color change, instead of artifacting, are you??

That would imply that there are artifacts.
post #288 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post


"Spartacus" proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the *MASTER* is 99% of the battle.
...

So if the fanbois are going to say "Fifth Element = MPEG2 sucks" then VC-1 sucks because of "Spartacus".

I agree with your first sentence as long as you talk about AVC versus VC-1. The source is extremely important.

But to your second point: "Fantastic Four = MPEG2 sucks"!
post #289 of 1010
Thread Starter 
This thread is composed primarily to show the overall PQ difference between SD and HD. The latest set of pictures has shown us that it takes more than transferring prints to HD optical to see HD PQ.

Crap in, Crap out.

I strongly suggest that you guys save your energy for the next comparison thread that will go up this weekend. It will deal more with the HD formats. This is more of your cup of tea
post #290 of 1010
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiotan View Post

Wow, Spartacus and The Fifth Element both look like crap. Except for the a few noticable things like the stripes on Gary Oldmans jacket in the one shot there is barely a difference between the DVD and the Blu-ray. Certainly doesn't have the WOW factor you should get from hi-def.

You are not alone with this observations. Unlike some people here on AVS who even suggested that the Blu ray version ". . . is not that bad". There is a thread about that somewhere. Its embarrassing. I hope that stops.
post #291 of 1010
I just looked at that frame in Fantastic 4 on my PS3 to check the bitrate, and it's 27.6 Mbps. Healthy, but Blu-ray can certainly supply more. Seems to me like an over-conservative encode. Would be interesting to see what that scene would look like at 40Mbps considering it has massive color contrast, lots of motion, lots of different colors, and light strobing.

The still frame doesn't describe it properly, but a frame-by-frame advance shows each of the frames in that particular scene of F4 changing nearly every pixel in luminosity. Even so, the compressionist had some more bandwidth there and should have used it IMO.

Definitely disappointing, but given the conditions, that shot might very well be the most challenging scene in this thread.

For those who own this title, the timecode on that frame 01:32:04. Do a frame-by-frame advance and you'll see what I'm talking about. This is not an easy scene to encode.
post #292 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

You are not alone with this observations. Unlike some people here on AVS who even suggested that the Blu ray version ". . . is not that bad". There is a thread about that somewhere. Its embarrassing. I hope that stops.

The sadest part being $ony have not pulled it, they continue to gauge there loyal followers with BR lite
post #293 of 1010
I think the quality of The Fifth Element BRD might've been determined by the needs of mpeg-2 on a 25gb disc. Compared to the HDTV version it does appear to be filtered to reduce grain/video noise to make the compression easier. A really stupid decision of course but not surprising when it's done all the time with standard def dvds.
post #294 of 1010
The Fifth Element looks terrible. It looks like an SD upconvert. Barely.

As for the X3 shot of Phoenix, It'd be nice to compare that to the master. I'm not convinced that it's posterization rather than just poor makeup.
post #295 of 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Kettell View Post

The Fifth Element looks terrible. It looks like an SD upconvert. Barely.

As for the X3 shot of Phoenix, It'd be nice to compare that to the master. I'm not convinced that it's posterization rather than just poor makeup.

Again, they used digital processing for Phoenix, the same way they used CGI to de-age Patrick Stewart & Ian McKellan at the start of the film.

"X3" on BD looks vastly better than it did theatrically, where it was a grainy, dirty mess. Super35 at its worst.

"Fifth Element" may be a bad HD master, but it's better than an upconvert.
post #296 of 1010
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icemage View Post

I just looked at that frame in Fantastic 4 on my PS3 to check the bitrate, and it's 27.6 Mbps. Healthy, but Blu-ray can certainly supply more. Seems to me like an over-conservative encode. Would be interesting to see what that scene would look like at 40Mbps considering it has massive color contrast, lots of motion, lots of different colors, and light strobing.

It will be interesting how the H.264 version holds up to that scene.
post #297 of 1010
Thread Starter 
Heads up to people that subscribes to this thread. A new comparison screenshots thread is up dealing with various HD sources including Blu-ray vs HD DVD.

Click here.
post #298 of 1010
Xylon,

These are truly great shots. I have skimmed this thread so forgive if I missed this, but how are you SD shots taken. For SD, I use a SDI modded RP82 connected to a Lumagen HDP scaler to a Panasonic 657UY Plasma.

The SD DVDs look considerable better than what you show here. However, when I play then with PowerDVD 7.3 and a GeForce 8800 GTS they look about the same as your captures. However, TheaterTek looks much better using VMR on the same movies. So I think the images you show are perhaps toward the lower end of the performance of SD.

That said, I have not watched an SD DVD in months

- Rich
post #299 of 1010
Thread Starter 
Media Player Classic with VMR9(renderless).
post #300 of 1010
Thread Starter 
Traffic(VC-1) 24.2 GB

DVD......................................................... ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ................HD broadcast 720p........................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ .........................................................HD DVD



DVD
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