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51 GB HD DVD disc rivals Blu-ray capacity

post #1 of 41
2/27/07 at 3:14pm
Thread Starter 
Further blurring the line of which format is technically superior, Toshiba has announced that it has successfully created a triple-layer HD DVD disc that holds 51 GB of data. It has begun the process of submitting it for regulatory approval.

Blu-ray Disc (BD) has been regarded as the winner in terms of capacity since the beginning of the next-generation format war. However, the 51 GB HD DVD would slightly overpower BD, which currently has a maximum capacity of 50 GB. Previously, HD DVDs were only available in 15 GB and 30 GB capacities.

Feasibility is a big question, though. It's unclear if the addition of a third layer on an HD DVD would significantly increase mass production costs or time.

HD DVD is struggling to capture more market share after a Nielsen report showed the BDs were outpacing it by two to one. One major advantage it touts is its combo format discs, which work in both HD DVD and regular DVD players. However, that drives up the cost and deters some consumers.

According to media reports, Toshiba is planning to launch the new format before the end of the year.
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post #2 of 41
2/27/07 at 3:17pm
Check this out. This one says that it has already been submitted for approval.
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/8797.cfm

Quote:


Even though the Blu-ray camp has already declared victory for itself and Sony's PS3 has been loosed in Japan and North America and with the highly-anticipated European launch less than a month away, Toshiba Corp. is sending a message that it is far from giving in to Blu-ray. Toshiba has submitted the specification of the 51GB HD DVD disc to the standard's overseer.
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post #3 of 41
2/27/07 at 3:41pm
I don't think that is going to help HD-DVD to any significant degree. Right now, on my Netflicks que, I have 17 Blu-ray titles, and 0 HD-DVD titles. Granted, a couple of those are available in both formats, but I prefer the virtually scratch proof Blu-ray coating to the easily scratched HD-DVDs. Universal needs to get it butt in gear and release lots of good titles. At this point, I really think that in the future, my HD-A1 is simply going to be a great, $500 upconverting player....
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post #4 of 41
2/27/07 at 3:43pm
Something of note on the subject is that several months ago, one of Sony's Blu Ray execs was asked about the threat of 51GB 3-layer HD DVDs. His response was that Sony was working on a three layer Blu Ray disc holding 75GB and also a four layer disc. They were simply waiting to release it until the market showed the extra space was needed. I'll see if I can't dig up the link to the article. It was in December of last year. Either way, it's interesting to think of the potential of both formats to increase layers as needed in the future to expand their capacity.
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post #5 of 41
2/27/07 at 3:44pm
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=811742
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post #6 of 41
2/27/07 at 5:25pm
50GB covers all needs. The only programs I can see that need 50GB are long play movies like the EE editions of LotR and series on disc.
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post #7 of 41
2/27/07 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

50GB covers all needs. The only programs I can see that need 50GB are long play movies like the EE editions of LotR and series on disc.


They don't even need anywhere near that. KING KONG took up only 12GB on the HD DVD for the video. I supposed you could plop down an entire season's worth of TV episodes on a single TL-51 disc, though.


Eric
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post #8 of 41
2/27/07 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by egcarter View Post

They don't even need anywhere near that. KING KONG took up only 12GB on the HD DVD for the video.

Do you have a typo, because I don't believe 12GB is even close to the correct figure? If you claim it is 12GB, where did that come from?

--Darin
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post #9 of 41
2/27/07 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yakkosmurf View Post

Something of note on the subject is that several months ago, one of Sony's Blu Ray execs was asked about the threat of 51GB 3-layer HD DVDs. His response was that Sony was working on a three layer Blu Ray disc holding 75GB and also a four layer disc. They were simply waiting to release it until the market showed the extra space was needed. I'll see if I can't dig up the link to the article. It was in December of last year. Either way, it's interesting to think of the potential of both formats to increase layers as needed in the future to expand their capacity.

Sony has been having a hard enough time with dual layer Blu-ray discs as it is. I highly doubt there will ever be triple or quad layer Blu-ray discs for the buying public.
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post #10 of 41
2/27/07 at 7:20pm
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Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

Sony has been having a hard enough time with dual layer Blu-ray discs as it is. I highly doubt there will ever be triple or quad layer Blu-ray discs for the buying public.

The point is that it's definitely possible. I remember how it took over a year to get the manufacturing of dual layer, dual sided (thus 4 layers total) DVDs correct. Now that company in England making VMDs has gotten up to 16 layers on a DVD. If the extra space is really that big of a deal, then both groups will continue to try to add another layer.
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post #11 of 41
2/27/07 at 7:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yakkosmurf View Post

The point is that it's definitely possible. I remember how it took over a year to get the manufacturing of dual layer, dual sided (thus 4 layers total) DVDs correct. Now that company in England making VMDs has gotten up to 16 layers on a DVD. If the extra space is really that big of a deal, then both groups will continue to try to add another layer.

I'm guessing that triple-layer HD DVD will be easier to produce (and with higher yields) than dual-layer Blu-ray discs.
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post #12 of 41
2/27/07 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

I'm guessing that triple-layer HD DVD will be easier to produce (and with higher yields) than dual-layer Blu-ray discs.

You can bet on that.
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post #13 of 41
2/27/07 at 8:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

I'm guessing that triple-layer HD DVD will be easier to produce (and with higher yields) than dual-layer Blu-ray discs.

We'll see. The engineer in me is skeptical about that given the recent submission of a spec versus actual release of software to the public. I would suspect anything in the release to the public state would have production worked out to some extent. Usually, something in the "submit spec for approval state" still has a ways to go before you get finalized production plans.

Like I said, dual layer double sided DVDs took a really long time to get the production down. It was over a year before anyone could make one for public release. Blu Ray already has several titles out on dual layer discs. Production engineering experience would tell me for now Blu Ray is better at it. But, that could change.
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post #14 of 41
2/27/07 at 9:14pm
I'm no engineer, but considering how prone HD-DVDs are to skipping/reading problems, I shudder at the thought of triple layer....
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post #15 of 41
2/27/07 at 9:26pm
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Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

I'm no engineer, but considering how prone HD-DVDs are to skipping/reading problems, I shudder at the thought of triple layer....

Spread your FUD somewhere else.
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post #16 of 41
2/27/07 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

I'm no engineer, but considering how prone HD-DVDs are to skipping/reading problems, I shudder at the thought of triple layer....


Shouldn't you be salivating and quivering in quasi-orgasmic delight, somewhere else, ie: on any thread even tangentially related to the RS1?
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post #17 of 41
2/27/07 at 10:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yakkosmurf View Post

Like I said, dual layer double sided DVDs took a really long time to get the production down. It was over a year before anyone could make one for public release. Blu Ray already has several titles out on dual layer discs. Production engineering experience would tell me for now Blu Ray is better at it. But, that could change.

Considering that HD DVD is largely based on DVD technology, I don't think there will be any issues now that DVD has already been perfected for quite some time.
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post #18 of 41
2/28/07 at 1:20am
Yes I would think they would be able to produce things at a much faster pace since they are using dvd tech.
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post #19 of 41
2/28/07 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd nOOb View Post

Yes I would think they would be able to produce things at a much faster pace since they are using dvd tech.

Do you have idea of how the different laser impacts things? What about having two transparent layers? I'm going to guess no. These will have huge impacts and add complexity to the production or reliable 3 layer discs. I partially agree it should be easier than what Blu Ray is going through, but not by much. Adding a second transparent layer is much harder than the orginal add of just one. I'd be surprised to see 3 layer HD DVDs out before the end of the year.
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post #20 of 41
2/28/07 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by egcarter View Post

They don't even need anywhere near that. KING KONG took up only 12GB on the HD DVD for the video.

Please provide your source for this.
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post #21 of 41
2/28/07 at 8:54am
Dont think they fitted kingkong on 12gb even if they in theory could. Maybe 22GB is more correct.

But it would be fun to know.
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post #22 of 41
2/28/07 at 9:04am
BD can have 75 gig discs and HD-DVD can have 51 gig discs all they want, but unless they are readable on players available in the market place right now, it's a waste.
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post #23 of 41
2/28/07 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Dont think they fitted kingkong on 12gb even if they in theory could. Maybe 22GB is more correct.

But it would be fun to know.

Yea I think that was a typo, but Batman Begins, is ~13gb (video only)
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post #24 of 41
2/28/07 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

I'm no engineer, but considering how prone HD-DVDs are to skipping/reading problems, I shudder at the thought of triple layer....

Even that is FUD as far as I am concerned. I have never experienced any of the above with my A1.
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post #25 of 41
2/28/07 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

I don't think that is going to help HD-DVD to any significant degree. Right now, on my Netflicks que, I have 17 Blu-ray titles, and 0 HD-DVD titles. Granted, a couple of those are available in both formats, but I prefer the virtually scratch proof Blu-ray coating to the easily scratched HD-DVDs. Universal needs to get it butt in gear and release lots of good titles. At this point, I really think that in the future, my HD-A1 is simply going to be a great, $500 upconverting player....

Show us a picture of your setup with your HD DVD player, and then I will believe that you really have one.
Otherwise everything you just said can construed as trolling.
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post #26 of 41
2/28/07 at 11:05am
I just checked. King Kong is 26.7 GB.
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post #27 of 41
2/28/07 at 11:53am
I think the initial post about this confused King Kong with Batman Begins.

In the insiders thread Amir confirmed that Batman Begins HD-VIDEO was 12GB. This is for a 140 min film. In theory a 3 hour film in that quality could then be around 15.5 GB and a 188 min like King Kong COULD be just over 16 GB.

The ACTUAL King Kong could be more GB but in theory at least an action movie that long could be done around 16 GB.

Remember all of this is without audio and extras but even adding lossless sound and plenty of extras it's a long way to 50 GB.
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post #28 of 41
2/28/07 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post

I Right now, on my Netflicks que, I have 17 Blu-ray titles, and 0 HD-DVD titles. ...

And my queue has 22 HD-DVDs, about 5 newly available this month, and 0 BluRay titles. There just isn't anything on BluRay of interest to me any more, I got pretty tired of the poor transfers showing up there, although the disc to disc variations in PQ is getting better ... a lot of money is being spent on QC.
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post #29 of 41
2/28/07 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Do you have a typo, because I don't believe 12GB is even close to the correct figure? If you claim it is 12GB, where did that come from?

Well that depends, is the movie Feature 1, Feature 2, or Feature 1 + Feature 2?



Note that this is King Kong's HDDVD_TS directory -- the movie title is the volume title for F: on the left side.

PS. Sorry 'bout the cropped version of Win Explorer but you really don't want to see my boring Remote Desktop anyway, do you?

Cheers,
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post #30 of 41
2/28/07 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

Well that depends, is the movie Feature 1, Feature 2, or Feature 1 + Feature 2?

It is feature 1+2.
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