Why do threads Keep getting closed  

...because one or two self-apponted "policemen" here, who call others "childish" and "trolls," keep running secretly to the moderators to ask that every thread they disagree with, be closed....:-)

To answer your question, generally /Users/UserName/Music.... But you can set iTunes to keep its library anywhere you want it to, including on another drive.

Which threads have been closed? I've always thought we've done a fairly good job of policing ourselves. Although... since this thread contains no Mac discussion I suggest it be closed or moved to an appropriate forum.

Someone mentioned dividing the Mac forum into OSX Mac and MCE on the Mac. It makes a lot of sense and would go a long ways to meet the needs of both communities and keep the flame wars down.

Better that we MCE on the mac users have our own forum rather than get swallowed in the larger forum. There are fewer hardware choices on the mac and so our needs are in many ways unique from the larger XP/Vista forum in terms of drivers etc.. For example, I'd like to see more discussion on USB tuners from users on the XP/Vista side of the mac. More discussion of HDHomeRun from mac users. More discussion on Parallels/VMware as it relates to MCE on the mac. ( I personnaly would like to see development of OSX running in virtualization under Vista on a mac as professionally I use mostly XP/Vista software including AutoCAD, SolidWorks and, now, Office 2007. It seems to me it would be much easier to virtualize OpenGL than DirectX 10! I doubt that will happen though).

In any case, what do people think?

Gee.. I wonder why your threads are getting closed.

Too many forums in my opinion. MCE discussion belongs in the Windows forum because at that point the Mac is merely a generic, beige box pc. I don't think there's enough interest in virtualization to create new forums. If virtualization is working correctly, then whatever OS you're using in a virtual machine should be discussed in the relevant forum (windows in windows, linux in linux, etc). A device like the Apple TV is tricky because it straddles the line of OS and function. Discussion could be found here, in the Windows forum or the Streamer forum. And I think all three would be appropriate. In that case you simply have to use your best judgement.

That the last thing we need is yet another patently divisive thread like this. The Mods have decided it's best for all of you Windows/MCE/Vista/XP users--regardless of the hardware you have--to take your "how-to" discussion to the more appropriate forum. If you have something interesting to say, or need help solving a problem, you won't be swallowed up over there to any greater extent than anyone else, since on the PC side hardware options are so vast anyway. Threads are getting closed because a few people refuse to accept the guidelines, as determined by the Mods. And there's got to be a better way to share your feelings about what you feel should be done or ought to be done than START a thread about it. Maybe a private message when you disagree with something or wonder why a thread was closed?

Ars Technica created a sub-forum just for the kind of inevitably deteriorating, inevitably circular, inevitably divisive fanboy ******** that's been so frustrating and distracting of late--it's called the Battlefront. I'm not sure whether we'd benefit from an additional forum, but if we were to add one, a virtualization forum would be low on the list. I do know one thing, though, it's high time this particular forum stopped being a surrogate battleground.

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/...frm/f/48409524

First, AVS Forums is a privately run entity. Nobody here has any free speech rights. The mods can close threads for any reason. To keep the community vibrant it's in their best interest to tread lightly, but they can do what they want.

Second, The AVS folks do tend to keep a tighter leash on things than other boards I'm on, but there are also a great deal more forums and posters here, so I think they need to so that the forums continue to be useful.

I am not sure about the need for a new forum.

There is, however, demand for information relating to using Mac hardware with non-Apple OSs. Just take a look at the number of views of the "FAQ: MCE on a Mac Mini" thread here. It is almost as frequently viewed as the OS X FAQ, even though it was recently unpinned. Also, take a look at the frequency with which MCE-related questions appear here - almost as often as the "how do I hook up my XXX monitor to my Mini" questions:-)

Mac hardware is unique, both in terms of design, and in terms of driver and peripherals installation. It also has the advantage of being able to run every major OS available, and this has been a major deciding factor for many "switchers."

Unfortunately, a lot of the responses to Mac hardware questions on the "main" forum are met with either "Go to the Mac forum," or "Why are you buying an overpriced Mac, when you can buy a cheap PC box." So, if you ask a question about a Mac Mini or an iMac there, often you are made to feel like a fool.

And unfortunately, the same unhelpful replies are all too frequent here. Some of the abuse is actually worse.

I would think we'd be happy if someone purchases an Apple computer, even if they chose to run MCE or whatever, if their HTPC needs are not met by the installed OS. For God's sake, Apple has a whole forum section on running Windows and Boot Camp! Why are some here more Catholic than the Pope?

My feeling is, people who have purchased an Intel Mac, and wish to try, or use an OS which may provide a better HTPC experience for them, should be able to ask for help from others who like and know Macs. After all, some may try MCE, Media Portal, etc., then decide that iTheater or Front Row is a better fit, and then wish to try BeyondMedia. The great thing about an Intel Mac is that it can run ALL of them.

But if each nubie question is met with flame-throwers by a few of the regulars here, then perhaps a new sub-forum may not be a bad idea.

I personally believe that fanboyism on both sides ratcheted up many notches when Apple started the "I'm a Mac" ad campaign.

I wonder if a thread entitled "Official MCE on a Mac" thread (on the other board) would be an alternative.

That's utter BS. It's the people that want to restrict this forum to Mac's, OSX and devices that interact with OSX. That's why this forum exists. It's not about Windows, it's not about Linux, it's not about MCE, Windows only streaming media players or Windows specific movie services. If the software doesn't run on OSX, if the device doesn't interact with OSX it doesn't belong here. End of story.

This area is for chat on the development of an HTPC platform for Mac's. We ask you to keep this area totally related to the Mac OS and computer platform for HTPC.

I honestly recommend this thread be closed by the moderators. We've had this discussion before. A thread was created for MCE discussion. If you want to discuss MCE on Macs, do it there.

I am not sure why there is so much hostility towards the PC guys who want to run Windows on a Mac Mini for HTPC purposes. If am ever forced to boot camp (or Parallel) my way into Windows to run some godforsaken piece of Windows only software (like during the World Cup I had an XP partition on my Mini, since erased, because the Verizon/ESPN thingy I was using to watch the games over the internet was Windoze only.)

Sure I was on the side of the Mac people in the AppleTV thread, and sure I think it is absurd to have M$ fans coming into this forum to tell us how much better MCE is, but I see nothing wrong with the occasional Windows on Mac thread.

If you look at the newly created Mac forum on HTF, which happened because Ron Epstein got a MacPro, many of the recent converts, including Ron, only bought Macs because of the security blanket of being able to run XP or Vista under parallels, and are still running Windows versions of absurd things ranging from MS Office, to Solitaire, to Konfabulator widgets (for heaven's sake!). Obviously, since they are loving OS X, they will soon discover that OS X offers all of the above, and it is better under OS X.

By welcoming hesitant Windows users to the Mac platform, we can in the long run convert many more people, which is good for all of us, as more and better software will be written for a more popular platform. Many of those MCE on Mini guys will sooner or later run into the usual Windows disasters, and instead of re-installing for the Nth time, they will switch to OS X and forget about it.

I don't think there's any hostility, the MCE discussion just doesn't belong in this particular forum. The forums have been created and differentiated by operating system (Linux Chat, Mac Chat, Windows Chat). That's a decision made by the moderators of the forum.

MCE may or may not belong in the Mac forum, don't have a strong opinion on that. But in either place there is bound to be flak from one camp or the other. It is cluttering up an already busy subforum listing to add yet another venue, but it honestly is probably the only way to have those discussions stay on topic.

The normal argument for not breaking forums into smaller groups is it makes it harder for people who peruse looking for issues in various areas to cover everything, but I think the MCE on Macs types probably are an exception in that regard.

BB

The only recent thread that I have closed in this area was the one about Apple TV vs. MCE. What others have been closed?

Threads get closed here because they break the rules of civic conduct as defined by the forum administrators. Healthy debate is allowed and actually encouraged, but when people cross the line with personal attacks and inflammatory posts, then action will be taken. You can continue with all of the healthy debate that you want as long as you respect the person you are debating and post in a friendly manner.

This forum is public in that anyone is allowed to join and post, but it is PRIVATELY run and maintained, much like a club, and adherence to the rules is mandatory in order to continue with your "club membership". So far the only action I have taken is to close a single thread that got out of hand, and even then I gave fair warning before doing so.

It is very easy - remain civil and show respect to your fellow forum members and threads will remain open for as much healthy debate as you want. The ball is in YOUR court.

BTW, I just now noticed this was a poll. I was wondering if you could make the responses any more bias?

I've been thinking about the sub-forum thing, and I think I'll fallen on the side of no sub-forum. The HTPC forums are designed around software not hardware, so technically any MCE discussion should be in that forum. Posting in the Mac forum really won't help much since I suspect most of us have little experience with Windows HTPC software.

Having said all that, if the Windows folks, generally speaking, won't help you because of your hardware choice, then I would suggest we create one sticky thread in this forum for the folks who choose to run MCE on Macintosh hardware. I know there is a thread already, it's just a matter of making it a sticky. At least you would have a small home of your own until the Windows HTPC folks become more understanding.

That thread should have been deleted (not closed) a long time ago. MCE vs AppleTV is not condusive to supporting a healthy discussion of the Mac OS. I still hold the position that AppleTV should be in the media streamer forum.

Nice post Ted.

I find the problems is not so much topics, but the attitudes of the Windows posters when they come into the Mac forum. I have a real problem with the missionary, out to save the unwashed Mac users, approach. And as Ted mentions above, Apple's strategy with Boot Camp, and in supporting Parallels, is to allow PC users an easy avenue to the Mac Way. And for me, having XP on my MacBook in Parallels is a necessity for a few applications I need that aren't written in OS X, for web development testing, and for providing some minimal amount of XP support.

Technically, running XP in Parallels is running OS X. Running in Boot Camp isn't. But with the new Parallels out of beta, you can run XP from a Boot Camp partition, so the water is muddied. I think that with the increased virtualization development, and the development of Coherance in Parallels, that it will become harder and harder to distinguish between where OS X ends, and XP/Vista pick up. And eventually, as virtualization comes to the PC, the problem may head the other direction, as Parallels has already said they have the technology to provide PC support for virtualizing OS X, but that they don't choose to alienate Apple by doing so at this time. So the lines between the two platforms are blurring, and that's ok in my mind.

Where the problem is, is that the blurring also mixes the user groups in ways that aren't always conducive to good communication. I have found that even things like the "I'm a Mac" tv commercials, and Apple PR market-speak tends to really piss off some Windows users, and their attitude towards Apple is misdirected towards Apple users in these, and other forums elsewhere. It's really unfortunate, but true. People do odd things when they are subtly threatened. And that is what Apple's campaign has done to many Windows users. It brings the bully out in some individuals.

So what I would advise is that Alan Gouger's sticky at the beginning of this forum be clarified, as it is written in a fairly murky manner. And I would add to it a statement to the effect that the missionary zeal of Windows users, and the Windows attitude against those who choose to use Mac hardware and OS X be parked at the entrance door. Then we can have civil debate.

wildrock, the trail runs both ways.

Chris

Well, appleTV and the iPhone both run variants of OS X. Does that mean they are or aren't Mac OS X products? My Pace Tahoe PVR runs linux, but it's thread is in the High Definition DVR forum. Categorization has to be a bit subjective here at AVS, as many products straddle different areas.

Maybe focusing this area on the Apple platform, as opposed to either OS or hardware, specifically would be a good approach. Apple is building out its platform aggressively with diversified products in the iPhone and appleTV, and I think that it would be good to reflect that company direction here in this forum, as opposed to breaking out the pieces in other forums. After all, one of Apple's strengths is its approach to an integrated user experience, from beginning to end. Maybe this forum should be renamed the Apple forum, not the HTPC-Mac chat, to better reflect Apple's approach.

And on a side note, maybe it is the notion of "HTPC" that is a subject of debate, as it provoked some heated talk on the just-closed thread, and I had no desire to have my notions of HTPC subjected to the critique of less-than pleasant MCE fans, so I didn't go there. I think that Apple users have a different attitude and expectation about what constitutes a HTPC, as Microsoft was first to build out its vision, and many Apple users have rejected it. And how us Apple users view what constitutes a HTPC irritates Windows users, hence the debate around semantics. It's not really a useful debate. I think that us Apple technology users should be allowed to define where we are going with the notion of HTPC, and where Apple is driving it, as it is very different than the PC world view of it. It's what sets the two platforms apart.

And as Bob has pointed pointed, the thread most in question about being closed was about Apple TV vs. MCE. Don't want MCE people in the forum, don't post about it. That was a choice that was made by the poster of the original thread.

I think MCE people (and Windows in general) will gladly stay out of any Mac thread once incorrect information is not presented about Windows. Just as Mac users would have no reason to debate within a Windows thread about OS X if incorrect information or unfar comparison was to be started.

You can't paint a picture that it only happens on one side, we all know it doesn't.

I'm a Windows and MCE user, but I like reading about Mac's as I will purchase one. I would be greatful if I didn't get turned off my future purchase by being incorrect represented in Mac thread. I'm not just talking about myself either, all Windows users and all Mac users should have the idea in their head that they are doing nothing to help either side by insulting or trying to bring the users down.

If you want to keep the MCE talk out, just don't start threads about MCE. Seems rather simple to me. Keep the single thread about MCE on a Mini, but know that you can't keep Windows (or any other platform) out of needing to be compared. Decisions are made based on comparing two different products, or two different platforms. How about limiting talk to the exact questions asked in the thread by the OP? Get off topic, thread closes.

There are dozens of posts in the Windows forum everyday that bring up Linux or Mac. These are not outlawed, and the Mac forum really shouldn't be any different. Same within the Linux forum. Windows is still brought up, and that would not be outlawed either.

Chris

My thought is, that when Steve Jobs announced that the Mac would move to an Intel architecture, that the heart and soul of the Mac experience is the operating system. I think that the last year has shown that to be very true. Mac users have embraced Intel. I am intrigued by OS X on other hardware platforms, if for no other reason than my own geeky nature. So if your use of OS X on AMD yields some interesting applications and solutions in the realm of home theater, I would be interested in hearing it.

And after thinking about my above statement about OS X being the heart and soul of the Mac experience, we get to the heart of the alienation of those who want to run MCE on Apple hardware. Loved not at either the HTPC-Mac nor the HTPC-PC forums. You go this route by your own choice, so you need to figure out where you want your support, whether with Mac users, PC users, or off on your own. If you come here, you need to tread lightly around those who have reject Microsoft's notion of HTPC. Go to the PC forum, and likewise you have to put up with PC bias against Mac hardware. As the PC user has rejected Apple hardware (and OS X), the Mac user has rejected Microsoft's Windows (but not Intel and inevitably AMD hardware). I don't envy you.

I think the best solution may be a virtualization and cross-platform hybrids forum. Though I am not a segregationist at heart, I think that avoiding the sort of acrimony that the MCE vs. appleTV touched off, and preventing spill-over into other threads (I've had to bite my tongue several times recently over other posts in the Mac forum), that it might be the best avenue.

Actually, the HTPC is hardly "Microsoft's notion." There are tens of variations on the same basic HTPC idea across platforms, from MythTV for Linux, to Media Center and Front Row for OS X, to MCE and Media Portal for Windows.

They all boil down to the same simple concept: combine all of one's media and present it under a unified UI on the "big" screen, with the option to navigate around by remote control.

In other words, make the computer feel and look to the end user less like a computer, but more like just like another DVD player, except that it does a bit more.

There seems to be an increasing number of people, who have purchased an Intel Mac, and not being entirely happy with the HTPC options available on OS X, have decided to simply reboot and try some of the alternatives. MCE is one such alternative.

There are installation and driver issues peculiar to the Intel Macs, as well as issues of making an Intel Mac running MCE work with other, OS X-running Macs, in one's home. This is why we get persistent questions about MCE on a Mac here.

Again, I really don't know if it is necessary to open another sub-forum. Perhaps a single sticky thread addressing the questions of those who choose to use MCE, or whatever, on Mac hardware, would be sufficient. I am of the opinion that this is all that's really needed.

But, this also implies that such thread should not be turned into a battlefield by the few here, who are fervently monoteistic. I started the "MCE on an Intel Mac" FAQ, because I had spent days and nights trying to cobble together the knowledge of how to make it all work, and felt that if I summarize it here, it may be of help to others trying to do the same. And spare them having to deal with people who, instead of answering a specific question, try to tell you that their Shuttle does so much more, or that you are a moron for buying a Mini.

Unfortunately, the FAQ quickly turned into a mess, with provocative questions, tirades, etc.. I have asked the one or two most prolific offenders to delete their messages, so that we have only pertinent technical info in the FAQ, but they have steadfastly refused:-( (It is ironic, that while some of the "purists" were willing to spend hours flaming the MCE FAQ, the Mac OS HTPC FAQ was only born as responce to it:-)

If we can keep the FAQ relatively clean (perhaps the moderators can actually delete any post not on point,) then I believe we can reduce the number of MCE-related posts here, and thus the flame wars.

Perhaps then, someone can spend some time making the OS X FAQ more complete.

I'm not convinced that Mac users have rejected Windows programs out-of-hand on this forum, The 'FAQ :MCE on Intel Mac Mini' has, as of today, 8020 views and the 'FAQ:Mac OSX-HTPC Options galore' sticky has 8599 views. Just about the same, and the later has the 'sticky' advantage.