Pioneer 640 getting scarce - Page 3

Hey bobkart:

That link you provided us with, is that a good price for such a converter box?

Thanks,
suplex

The Samsung SIR-T451 and the LG LST-3510A (Tuner/DVD combo) are the only ones I have experience with. They both pick up about the same number of channels (all other things being equal). The samsung can still be found, while the LG is discontinued.

My grandparents are using the Samsung and a DVD player and a VCR all into one composite input on their TV (they are about 60 miles from the towers and can pick up all the stations...way out int he country). I'm waiting to buy them a ATSC Tuner / VCR/ DVD Recorder combo to get rid of some of their units and remove the switch that they use now.

Plus, I'll probably be able to sell their equipment and make my money back

The manual for the 640 says it will split into two titles when using a -R DL disc. It's one of the notations on using DL discs...no similar note for +R DL.

"When the recorder switches from the
first layer to the second during recording
a DVD-R DL (Video mode) disc, a new
title is automatically started on the new
layer."

The Pioneer website had been down for repair/update, but now back online...

NO DVD RECORDERS LISTED.

NO STORES FOUND THAT CARRY DVD RECORDERS.

HP Direct AV appears to still have the 640 available to ship for $369.99 incl. UPS ground shipping.

They state they sell only NEW items and offer full Factory U.S. Warranties. The Pio website doesn't list them as authorized, but then it also says it can't identify every online store that is authorized.

Here's a page on their policies (note "Cancellation" policy) and their tel. no.

Posters to HP Direct reseller ratings are very negative.
Reseller rating = 0.63/10
http://www.resellerratings.com/store...ct_Audio_Video

I was aware of their advertising available Pio640s, but I do not believe them.
Nor do I believe they are authorized dealers, even if they had inventory.

While searching for Pio640s, I found a new Pan DMR-EH55S at an authorized dealer, here in Chicago area. Picked it up last night.

Hard to believe, I know.
And they sold it for $419.95!

Purchased it on my VISA (doubles mfr warranty).

If anyone is interested in details, just ask.

Restores my faith that if you look "long and hard" enough you can find them.

Still looking for a new Pio 640 under mfr warranty.

Was it the last one?

At that store location, yes.
But this retailer is nationwide.
They may have other Pan EH55s at other locations.

If you want details, just ask.

I am getting many private msgs asking for dealer info and how I located the unit.
Rather than replying to each msg separately, it makes sense to post this info for all to see in this thread.

I purchased the EH55 at a Circuit City store here in Chicago.
The unit was the demo model. CC assured me they only displayed the unit. It has not been turned on.

I learned that only a few CC stores carry the Pan EH55. And it is not in their computer system for this reason. I went to the Pan site, and under the EH55 product info, typed in my zip code, and it brought up only 5 CC stores in IL, WI and IN that carried this model. I called each store, and finally located the demo unit.

Good luck to forum members that take this approach.
Let us know your results.

As of today, the 640 is back on the Pioneer website...even though finding them at the retail level is getting very tough.

I picked one of these up at Circuit City a couple of weeks ago. Same thing, it was a demo model. Not a great price, though, for an open box item.. Took it home and it works great, with no problems.

There were supposedly a couple high-end Pio dvr models (PAL / NTSC) being sold here by a specialty vendor or two (B & H ?) for big bucks but well below 3 large, I think. Mainly out of curiosity, I'm wondering if they were of the same generation as the 640, and if they are still available ?

Is this where you meant? The Pioneer DVR-745H? 400GB HDD. Both PAL and NTSC tuner.

http://www.world-import.com/dvr-745h.htm

The ones in Japan will not work here - NTSC-J I believe.

Or maybe this one:

http://www.220-electronics.com

Interesting. I had thought that the international version of the 640 could not do NTSC. But now that I think of it I think it is the international version of the EH55 that has only a PAL tuner. Here's the 640 at the site I had posted:

http://www.world-import.com/dvr-640h.htm

Latest from Elec Warehouse:
They advise there is "one boat" enroute to Pioneer's US warehouse (Long Beach?) with last of US Pio 640s. Unknown how many Pio 640s on boat.

Apparently "loophole" in law is that Pio 640s already built and enroute to US can dock, and be unloaded. And distributed to authorized dealers with orders for them.

Elec Warehouse does not know how many Pio640s they will get, if any. They won't know until 3/31.

Good luck to fellow AVS members with orders at Elec Warehouse and elsewhere.

I found this place last week and decided to avoid it like the plague after reading details on the page for which they give a link--then checking them out at BBB.org's web site.

That link you provide, under, "Policies," *clearly* states they are NOT authorized dealers. Read the last two lines of the first paragraph in this section. This company acts as "agents" between buyers and sellers.

So, do they actually have 640Hs? Well, since they do not have any inventory and have to check around (as agents), they can not actually say until after someone places an order and they start checking around.

BBB (Better Business Bureau), of which they are not a member, has received numerous complaints about them. Check them out there for youself before ordering.

You must have overlooked this when you wrote: "They state they sell only NEW items and offer full Factory U.S. Warranties."

The rest of that part (in the Policy section) is: " unless otherwise stated." Then, as I have already written, it clearly notes they are not an authorized dealer (of anything). This is the kiss of death when it comes to buying a Pioneer product.

Please identify the source of this so-called "loophole" you mention!
If they are anticipating additional inventory, why did they cancel all orders? This would defeat the purpose for them, since they already had automatic sales for these units! Sounds like total contradiction!

In the interim, I am posting here relevant FAQ's regarding the FCC regulation which took effect on 3/1/07, as there seems to be alot of confusion and false information set forth on the part of dealers that either are hoping to attempt to "bait and switch" consumers or who are misinformed themselves. Either way, it appears that, if a dealer has no inventory to sell that they procured prior to 3/1/07, they (and you, the consumer) are simply out of luck. Sorry for the bad news but I am attempting to help clear up the confusion and prevent all of you nice people from getting your hopes up, just to be dissapointed in the end.
(BTW, the source of this info. is very credible. It is the "Bureau Veritas" website)
(READ CAREFULLY):

I have heard about special rules for televisions to be digital in 2007. What is that about?
The FCC wants to free up more radio spectrum, and by forcing conversion to a digital television system, they will do so. The FCC requires that all televisions or television devices with tuners (VCR's, Digital Video Recorders, etc.) imported or sold across state lines in the United States on or after March 1, 2007 have a digital tuner (known as an ATSC tuner). Devices cannot have only an analog (NTSC) tuner. Digital TV infrastructure will also enable High Definition (HD) TV.

I heard small TV's like battery powered TV's with 5 diagonals were exempt. Are they?
They were. Originally, the rules exempted TV's less than 13 diagonals. And the final date was July 1, 2006. These rules are still in the 2005 Title 47 CFR Part 15.117(i).

However, the FCC changed their position in a Second Report and Order (FCC 05-190) and removed the exemption and advanced the date. All TV's now require a digital tuner by March 1, 2007. The reason given is that in emergencies, small and battery powered TV's are a vital source of information. Therefore, the FCC wants them compatible with the new digital TV broadcast system.

This rule is burdensome to my business, was this not considered by the FCC?
The FCC addressed public comments in the FCC Second Report and Order FCC 05-190.

Is there a phase in or grace period on this March 1, 2007 date?
No. They take effect on that date. The rules ban import and sale across state lines, including internet and catalog sale. Retailers can ship within state warehouses to retail to clear inventory. Retailers cannot import TV's without digital tuners, even if they have taken ownership of them starting on or after March 1, 2007.

If a retailer has NTSC only product in their own distribution centers on March 1, 2007, can they ship the NTSC only products to their store?
They can ship analog-only TV receiver inventory to stores in the same state as the distribution center, but not to stores in different states.

If the retailer owns the inventory of NTSC only products, can they ship or import this product to their stores after March 1 2007?
No, see response above; and if they own the products but the products are not in this country by March 1, 2007, they cannot bring them in.

In this situation, does interstate commerce mean the movement of products across state lines or only sales of the product across state lines?
It means any movement of products across state lines. A vendor (retailer or distributor) cannot sell across state lines. Note that Internet sales across state lines are not permitted.

What is the penalty for shipping NTSC only products after March 1, 2007? How strict will enforcement be on shipment of NTSC only products after the date?
The Commission assesses penalties on a case-by-case basis. Generally with respect to products that are not compliant with the rules, penalties are applied on a per unit basis. It not a good business decision to just assume the Commission's penalties can be averaged out and treated as a cost of doing business, as the penalty may be more than the selling price per unit. There is no grace period.

As a consumer, how do I tell if the TV I am purchasing is Digital and / or NTSC capable?
The FCC encourages manufacturers and retailers to clearly market their televisions in accordance with their tuning capabilities.

Can Bureau Veritas help?
Bureau Veritas electrical certification services are able to provide FCC and Safety certification, as well quality assurance services for televisions. Contact Us

I would strongly suspect that any in-route shipments, including shipments not yet landed on US soil, would be moved through the distribution chain to consumers. It may not be strictly legal, but if the companies can show that the products involved were purchased with intent to get them to retail by the deadline but they were delayed for whatever reason, it's unlikely that the FCC would prosecute. There may be no grace period in law but in practice I doubt that they would pursue such borderline cases.

But the window is closing, quickly.

I purchased one of these 3 weeks ago from B&H Photo for $349. After telling some friends about it I went back last week and the price was up to $399 Us. This week it is discontinued and now replaced with a DVR-640H-SE. They have added Pal, removed Vcr+ and dropped to a 90 day warranty. There is no mention as to the type of Tv tuner. Oh Yes, It has a list price of $695 Us dollars. Yikes!
Doug

This was available at B&H previously. It is a multi-system unit with a NTSC tuner. It was intended to sell as an export unit but now has become more mainstream (at B&H at least) to fill the void left by the original 640's dust. Oh and by the way....it's out of stock!

Buying from one of the web sites that are _not_ authorized reseller places a buyer at risk of more problems than Pioneer not honoring the warranty if the 640H requires servicing. Some of these places store credit card information for a few **years**. Even though one might want a 640H so badly he/she decides to take the risk of getting it without Pioneer's warranty, please read _all_ sections at the web site--you might decide the 640H is just not worth it.

As an example, under the, "Customer Service," page at one site where one can buy the 640H:

"By submitting your Credit Card, you fully authorize XXXXX [my deleting name of company] to bill your Credit Card for the product charges and any shipping charges, associated with your Order, at any given period of time, within 36-Months of your purchase...

By submitting your Credit Card, you fully authorize XXXXX to charge an additional fee of $10.00 for any Credit Card Dispute that the Customer has wrongfully initiated."

Reading the FAQ in the, "Help Center," area makes a purchase sound more secure (at least to me).

So, please take the time to read all information about an online vendor. You might be like me and far more interested in feeling secure one's credit card information is not futuristically misused than getting an additional 640H.

Looking up the above, unnamed site at bbb.org, it has an unsatisfactory rating. In their section which lists number of complaints and how many have been resolved, "No Response
The Company has failed to respond to complaints."

Yes, not one complaint, for a number of reasons, has been dealt with by this unnamed company.

This is merely an example. No, I shall not reveal it's name via a PM--it is an _example_ of 'companies' out there.

I am starting to gain a real appreciation of Pioneer's policy to only honor warranties if one of their products is sold by an authorized reseller. It's sort of like an additional level of protection for the consumer.

The source of the "loophole" is Elec Warehouse.
I know this talk of a "loophole" sounds like salesman talk.

If Elec Warehouse is wrong about the "loophole",
and they cannot fill their orders, why make up a
story about a loophole? What's in it for them?

They have only authorized CC for orders.
They said they will not charge CC until orders ship.
I know my order (still active) has not been charged.

Did anyone with an order for Pio640s have their order cancelled yet?

After reading your original posting (about the final shipment en route via cargo ship) and what E.W. had told you, I decided to call and find out if they would let me get on a waiting list now. Last week they would not accept my order.

I just got off the phone from speaking to Nathan. He said as far as he knew, all orders had been cancelled. He said he (and other sales staff) had been told to cancel any orders he had taken because no more would be available and he had canceled all his orders.

I am not questioning what you have reported here, garyjo. If someone at E.W. said this to you, I am sure you relayed what he said here. What I am saying is that E.W. sales people have notified some people their orders have been cancelled and that assuming a cargo ship has a final load of 640Hs for the U.S.A., it is not general knowledge among E.W.'s sales staff.

Ngohit,
Seems there is some confusion among their sales staff.

Perhaps it is better to go off their actions.
My order has not been cancelled.
Has anyone had their order cancelled?

Again, there is nothing in it for Elec Warehouse to mislead us.
They are a reputable dealer. They are not charging our CC.

My reasoning:
If you already have an order with Elec Warehouse, why not leave it active?
There does not seem to be any downside.
And it might be filled at end-of-month.

There is no other "game in town", is there?
Any I missing something?

I see it mentioned twice in your FAQ that interstate Internet sales are also banned. That would seem to make most people out of luck unless the distribution point was in their state. Yet, I have checked a number of E-retailers who list analog-only products on their web-sites (Panasonic non-HDD units are still plentiful) and there doesn't seem to be any restriction as to where they will ship.

They all seem to still be selling NTSC tuner only product. Tiger Direct, Buy.com, New Egg, Circuit City, etc.

Hopefully, people are not so foolish as to still be handing over their real credit card numbers over the internet (or phone). Just about every major credit card issuer offers their cardholders a service whereby one can log into their credit card account and generate an alias card number to use for on-line purchases. My Visa issuer provides me with "ShopSafe" which allows me to generate an alias card number in which I specify the max $ amount it is good for and how many months the number will be active before it expires and disappears. In addition, the alias number is only good for a single Etailer. I have full control over that alias and can cancel it at any time so I never have to worry that an Etailer may have my number after I cancel an order.

This is not an unique service, most card issuers offer some variant of this. Check you account's website.