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Have I been HD-DVD brainwashed? - Page 3

post #61 of 191
3/6/07 at 8:22am
To be clear, I don't agree with Roberts statement that Newegg is unworthy - I have shopped with that site many times and it's A+ for me. Also, SD upconversion isn't as good as BD or HD DVD. But I was referring to the fact that many SD DVD looks very good with the XA2 and may meet the needs for many viewers - even those who care about good PQ.

Also, the Denon with a Reon is around $850. The XA2 is better than the lower end Denon. IMO.
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post #62 of 191
3/6/07 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

No dealer would ever buy from NewEgg.

And regarding up-converting, I can tell you SD DVDs played in the XA2 with a little tweaking of the color and image enhancement tools you can get most BD exclusive titles in SD DVD to look just like the best BD player with the BD title playing.

And though not quite as great all other G1 and G2 HD DVD players do an excellent job of up-converting all SD DVD as well.

-Robert


THIS IS IT! Talking about beeing "HD-DVD brainwashed". UNBELIEVABLE. I'm speechless...

btw I have an XA2 and a PS3. Funny thing is that I actually prefer the SD performance of the PS3 (letting my Sharp Z20k do the upscaling).

I need a beer now, calm myself down and take a deep breath
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post #63 of 191
3/6/07 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman View Post

To be clear, I don't agree with Roberts statement that Newegg is unworthy - I have shopped with that site many times and it's A+ for me. Also, SD upconversion isn't as good as BD or HD DVD. But I was referring to the fact that many SD DVD looks very good with the XA2 and may meet the needs for many viewers - even those who care about good PQ.

Also, the Denon with a Reon is around $850. The XA2 is better than the lower end Denon. IMO.

Finally, we can agree on something, Plazman - I also find Newegg one of the best etailers.
As far as Denon 2930 vs Tosh, I think Denon might be well worth the price difference when you take into account the build quality, advanced electronics, and what is important to me as well - SACD/DVD-A support.
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post #64 of 191
3/6/07 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I can't believe that I just read that.

Any credibility that you may have had left just flew out the window. And it is doubtful that it will return.


Ditto! Really sad to see such statements here.
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post #65 of 191
3/6/07 at 9:55am
Thread Starter 
Wow. What did I say about igniting flames? Who knew that the thread would remain relatively tame until Robert dropped the XA2 SD = BR bomb. I'm quite sure that's not true. (despite how crappy BR looked when it was first released).

So... it sounds like there is a lot of disagreement, but nearly everyone believes BR is coming along in the HD PQ department and has equaled HD-DVD for many titles.

In terms of content, much of what I want is now (or will soon be) available on HD-DVD: Serenity, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Perfect Storm, Casablanca, The Sting, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. I think most of this is also available on BR, but I haven't done my homework on that. Also, some of these titles I can get free if I buy a player.

I'm still trying not to buy discs that I already have on SD-DVD, but that will change the day Lord of the Rings is released.

The BR only titles I long for today are X3, Casino Royale, and House of Flying Daggers (which apparently is a 2nd rate transfer). But I see Dances w/ Wolves, Master and Commander, Cars, Pirates of the Carribean and other must haves (which are BR only according to the link posted in this thread) on the horizon.

I think, in the end, my choice comes down to either 1) dropping $750 (minus the cost of 7 HD-DVD titles) now for an excellent up-converter with the HD-DVD bouns (most people think the XA2 out performs the Denon 3910) and getting a BR later or 2) waiting for a universal that performs well (which is decidedly not the LG). Are there any more universal players on the horizon? I've heard of none.

I'll probably get the XA2 soon, hope I'm not a victim of the bugs which are frighteningly common on that unit, and then try to sell the XA2 on eBay when that top-shelf universal player finally arrives. At that point, HD-DVD may be dead and my XA2 may not be worth the cost of shipping, but I doubt it. If so, I'll give it to my dad and he'll think me generous.

As for my equipment, since someone asked, I have a 46" Samsung 720P DLP, but am having a JVC RS1 installed with a 100" screen in May. On my current TV, this debate is largely academic. But at 100", PQ is everything to me, and the PQ of my considerable SD-DVD collection is a very big factor.

Thanks to all for the great input. Long live HD discs!
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post #66 of 191
3/6/07 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

No dealer would ever buy from NewEgg.

And regarding up-converting, I can tell you SD DVDs played in the XA2 with a little tweaking of the color and image enhancement tools you can get most BD exclusive titles in SD DVD to look just like the best BD player with the BD title playing.

And though not quite as great all other G1 and G2 HD DVD players do an excellent job of up-converting all SD DVD as well.

-Robert

And coming from a guy who actually sells, and owns both formats, unlike some dishonest trolls that will remain nameless, I believe it to be completely credible.
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post #67 of 191
3/6/07 at 10:47am
mod

may I respectfully request that any attacks or bashing stop:

otherwise thread goes away

If you don't agree with a post, feel free to challenge it: do not attack the poster

Thanks
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post #68 of 191
3/6/07 at 11:09am
Hmm, where's Robert?
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post #69 of 191
3/6/07 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Blu Ray looks as good or better than HD DUD. I have owned both and compared them on my ISF calibrated 1080P projector. The first few discs looked abit questionable but that was months ago.

ALmost all Blu Ray discs have lossless sound. Not so with HD DVD (far less).

HD DVD is going to lose the format war as the studios have choked their content off.

HD DVD owners will not be watching Casino Royale next week.



I'm an HD DVD owner and a Blu Ray owner. I'll be watching Casino Royale next week, but not on my preferred format. Out of the Blu Ray and HD DVD discs I own, I'd give the edge to HD DVD. You'll probably say my setup isn't calibrated. Well, if you want to come over to my house and calibrate it to your satisfaction ... I wouldn't let you because it's calibrated to MY satisfaction.

The problem with this entire format "war" is studios and consumer electronics manufacturers ramming the format of their choice down our throats instead of letting us decide which one we want.
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post #70 of 191
3/6/07 at 11:45am
Nicely summarized Jeff!

I did look into the current titles in both formats and found for my taste, about twice as many HD-DVD releases versus BRD....so I now have the A2 (1 week) and will have about 40-50 disc by year end! I have 300+ SD-DVD's, and although the A2 seems to do a good job upconverting, I'm also certainly considering the purchase of the XA2 (on the 67" 1080P-Sammy DLP) and will move the A2 to the bedroom (42" 720P-Sammy DLP) !!

As you said, one day when a great combo comes along, I'll probably move toward that direction as I feel Both are Great Formats and Both will be here to stay!!

The JVC RS1 w\\100" screen will be Real Sweet and a great base for your HT that I'm sure you'll enjoy!!

Good Luck!

Ted
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post #71 of 191
3/6/07 at 12:23pm
I would swear I am on the Blu-ray thread.
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post #72 of 191
3/6/07 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfbinet View Post

I would swear I am on the Blu-ray thread.

That's because you are. It was just moved to the HD DVD forum three posts before yours.
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post #73 of 191
3/6/07 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TauRus View Post

Finally, we can agree on something, Plazman - I also find Newegg one of the best etailers.
As far as Denon 2930 vs Tosh, I think Denon might be well worth the price difference when you take into account the build quality, advanced electronics, and what is important to me as well - SACD/DVD-A support.

Basically if you want SACD/DVD A you go with the Denon, if you want HD DVD, you go with the XA-2. From my experience the build quality of the XA-2 is very good and since I don't have a 2930, so not sure what other advanced electronics it offers beyond the XA-2 for SD playback - the XA-2 is hdmi 1.3, not sure if the Denon is.

However, the XA-2 does have a slower layer change on SD DVD, which the Denon does not suffer from....
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post #74 of 191
3/6/07 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post

Please, stop talking complete crap. Nothing changes the fact that there are over one million more pixels per frame on the Blu-ray disc.

But the same number on the screen. The XA2 does such a good job with filling in those pixels it is "difficult to see any difference". I believe that is all he is saying.
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post #75 of 191
3/6/07 at 12:56pm
To your question, I'd say that PQ is a wash between the two, now that blue-ray is using more efficient video codecs. For content, Blue-Ray has the edge, due to more studio support. However, HD-DVD players have the edge in SD-upconversion, particularly the high-end model which is great.

Which one to get? Too close to call if you can only get one. Really, it depends of which features you want and which titles you need. Good luck!
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post #76 of 191
3/6/07 at 12:59pm
I agree with Plazman. The XA-2 build quality is excellent, but the layer change might drive some people crazy. The 1-2 second layer change does not bother me easpecially when I used to deal with my laser Disc switching to the B side ( automatically ). Trying to remember how long that took, 20 seconds???
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post #77 of 191
3/6/07 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rr6966 View Post

I agree with Plazman. The XA-2 build quality is excellent, but the layer change might drive some people crazy. The 1-2 second layer change does not bother me easpecially when I used to deal with my laser Disc switching to the B side ( automatically ). Trying to remember how long that took, 20 seconds???


Alpha U-Turn!!!
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post #78 of 191
3/6/07 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gosawx View Post

Alpha U-Turn!!!

Leave me out of this
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post #79 of 191
3/6/07 at 1:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLoveone View Post

That's because you are. It was just moved to the HD DVD forum three posts before yours.



Why in the world was this moved? I posted in the Blu-Ray forum precisely because I wanted to hear from the BR loyalists. Moving it here defeats the purpose of my inquiry.

I suppose the point is moot, as I've already received so many great responses. Still, if anyone with the power to do so is listening, please move this thread back to the BR forum.
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post #80 of 191
3/6/07 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffNebraska View Post



Why in the world was this moved? I posted in the Blu-Ray forum precisely because I wanted to hear from the BR loyalists. Moving it here defeats the purpose of my inquiry.

I suppose the point is moot, as I've already received so many great responses. Still, if anyone with the power to do so is listening, please move this thread back to the BR forum.

mods out of control

OK now?
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post #81 of 191
3/6/07 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffNebraska View Post

As for my equipment, since someone asked, I have a 46" Samsung 720P DLP, but am having a JVC RS1 installed with a 100" screen in May. On my current TV, this debate is largely academic. But at 100", PQ is everything to me, and the PQ of my considerable SD-DVD collection is a very big factor.

For the JVC RS1, I would make sure my HD player would output 1920 x 1080/24 (23.98)/P. The Pioneer, Sony and the new Samsung BD players will do this. The PS3 is supposed to do this in the near future. I have the JVC DILA HX1U* and a 106" Da-Lite* screen with Audio Vison material. I will wager a coffee that once you see your new setup you will loose all interest in SD video, including DVD's . And after that first lamp replacement you will get more picky about HD material.

For the record: I have never posted in the HD DVD forums, the response here because it was started in the Blu-ray forums.

*Purchased right here from:

Jason C. Turk
Sales and Installations
A/V Science, Inc.
315-538-9806
jason@avscience.com
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post #82 of 191
3/6/07 at 2:16pm
Here is what I think:

-- either format will do the job
-- Blu-ray's specs are slightly better in principle but this has not been very evident yet
-- particular disks and players evidence different problems
-- a given piece of content looks and sounds the same on both formats
-- HD DVD had a better launch overall (some up, some down)
-- Blu-ray has done much better since December
-- we will not see a lot of content until the format war ends
-- I will settle for either format as long as things happen quickly and cleanly. I want my hd and just don't care about the disk structure!
-- Blu-ray has much better CE and studio support
-- Blu-ray looks to me like it will win and sooner than most people believe.
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post #83 of 191
3/6/07 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffNebraska View Post

When the formats first came out, I saw (with my own eyes) that HD-DVDs tended to look either better or much better than BRs. Phantom of the Opera and King Kong were jaw dropping and every BR I saw (granted... on that troubled Samsung player) looked grainy and unnatural. What's more, the difference between the BR demo discs (which looked sensational) and the consumer software was unmissable.

I started reading the HD-DVD forum (where there is tremendous BR bashing) a few months ago, and it seemed quite clear to me that HD-DVD was the better format out of the gate.

Now, I still haven't purchased an HD player, and I get the sense that the gap may be narrowing. My number one priority is HD PQ, followed closely by SD-DVD upconversion (where it still appears clear that the Tosh XA2 dominates). The price difference is not important to me.

If I were reading this forum, rathern than that one, would I be convinced that BR is the way to go? Does everyone here feel like, in terms of HD PQ, BRs have caught up with or surpassed HD-DVDs? Does anyone here feel like a BR player can compete with the Tosh XA2 for SD upconversion?

Thanks for the opinions. Hopefully this honest inquiry into whether I'm being close minded about BR won't ignite any flames.

The Pioneer BD player does an excellent upconversion job in my opinion, and it can also output 480i to a scaler or a panel with a great scaler in it. I prefer 480i to my plasma over the upconversion, but to each his/her own.

As to the dead horse of upconversion PQ vs any HD or BD disc PQ, probably a moot point, but even if the SD is reference quality and the HD or BD transfer is poor, you should still be able to tell the difference. Maybe not the huge difference between VHS and DVD, (more like the difference between LD and good DVD), but a difference nonetheless. The question for many folks is whether or not that difference is worth the price. For us enthusiasts, it usually is.
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post #84 of 191
3/6/07 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsmith View Post

Here is what I think:

-- either format will do the job
-- Blu-ray's specs are slightly better in principle but this has not been very evident yet
-- particular disks and players evidence different problems
-- a given piece of content looks and sounds the same on both formats
-- HD DVD had a better launch overall (some up, some down)
-- Blu-ray has done much better since December
-- we will not see a lot of content until the format war ends
-- I will settle for either format as long as things happen quickly and cleanly. I want my hd and just don't care about the disk structure!
-- Blu-ray has much better CE and studio support
-- Blu-ray looks to me like it will win and sooner than most people believe.

Sony is certainly winning to pony up much more in terms of marketing and promotion - for Q1 2007 at least. I believe a lot will depend upon how the next earning call for Sony goes slated for the end of April. If the earnings are better than Q4 with revenue and profits up across the board we will see a stronger push in terms of resources being put up by Sony to win the war....on the other hand, a poor Q and Sony will have a hard time justifying more resources to this.

My belief is that the downturn in the plasma market has made Panny more conservative in their BD strategy than they would have liked...same for Pio. Both were expecting big growths in plasma, where their bread and butter seem to be. Also, they were probably thinking of BD Players as being high margin products.
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post #85 of 191
3/6/07 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffNebraska View Post



Why in the world was this moved? I posted in the Blu-Ray forum precisely because I wanted to hear from the BR loyalists. Moving it here defeats the purpose of my inquiry.

I suppose the point is moot, as I've already received so many great responses. Still, if anyone with the power to do so is listening, please move this thread back to the BR forum.

Heh, you make it sound like your were trolling the blue-ray forum then...

Your top two requirements are picture quality and sd-dvd upconverting. Given that picture quality is more or less equal between the two formats then upconverting is your number one priority. To that end the hd-dvd players have excellent upconverting.

So your choice based on those two criteria is obvious.

Now, add in format longevity, content, etc, etc...it looks like blue-ray may have the slight edge.

Now for my opinion -

I have an xbox 360 w/ hd-dvd with a Sony kdl-40v2500 (40 inch, 1080p). Picture quality looks amazing. However, the difference between dvd quality and hd-dvd quality *to me* isn't that big of a deal. I'd just as well keep buying dvds until hd-dvd or blue-ray disks cost the same. Seriously, I could care less if "The Prestige" is in 1080p or not - dvd quality is fine (and I do own the dvd of "The Prestige")

To be honest, I'm fine with how netflix 'watch now' streaming video looks at full screen. It is lower quality than a dvd (due to compression) but it looks decent enough.

The low end of the scale is the over compressed crappy cable feed I get from comcast. Seriously, 480i has never looked worse. (fwiw, I do get HD cable)

My point? Wait it out and save your money until there is a definite answer to this madness. Dvd quality is *not* that bad.
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post #86 of 191
3/6/07 at 3:31pm
The comment about SD DVD being as good as BDs from exclusive studios (if true..) implies one of the following:

1. The BD exclusive studios have worked some magic with their mpeg2 encoders when releasing their DVDs.

2. Toshiba has revolutionized the basics of upconversion and is selling it for a couple hundred dollars. If so, I will wait for a non hd-dvd, DVD player from toshiba with the same tech to play my universal DVDs on Denon and Oppo, watch out. Your dvd players are history.

Either way, its all good.
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post #87 of 191
3/6/07 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

No dealer would ever buy from NewEgg.

And regarding up-converting, I can tell you SD DVDs played in the XA2 with a little tweaking of the color and image enhancement tools you can get most BD exclusive titles in SD DVD to look just like the best BD player with the BD title playing.

And though not quite as great all other G1 and G2 HD DVD players do an excellent job of up-converting all SD DVD as well.

-Robert

I want to apologize for making this post. Here's why I made the post.

I had just finished setting up a new system in my basement using a new JVC 1080p 60 Hz 46" LCD with a Panasonic DMP-BD10 and a XA2. The very first disc I played was "Legends of Jazz" BD and it looked and sounded great. So I popped in the SD DVD version as the producer sent me both copies and proceeded to get into the color and picture quality enhancement tools and got the image to look almost as good as the BD disc.

So after a few drinks to celebrate the new system I unfortunately found a thread where a very pro BD member was touting the BD titles that could not be enjoyed on HD DVD. So I made the mistake of acting out based on my limited but excellent SD DVD up-scaling and finely enhanced image quality and a few alcoholic drinks.

So today at my store I set up the Sony, Panasonic, A2 and XA2 players into my HDMI 4x4 matrix switch and I am embarrassed to say HD DVD and BD looks better than SD DVD even on the XA2. However, the XA2 is by far the best up-converting player of the lot and on some SD discs and on some displays (mostly 1080p 60fps LCDs) the image quality gets close.

The positive thing I want to come out of this is that the XA2's Silicon Optix REON processing provides the very best possible SD DVD picture and does it extremely well. And if you have a few drinks it can look as well lets say satellite HD programming.

So all I can say is I'm sorry for making the post and I am going to stay away from my PC when drinking.

-Robert

PS, BTW, my comment regarding NewEgg was directed to the post asking if dealers would buy from them. I think NewEgg is an excellent retailer, my comment was strictly limited and addressed dealer sales. No dealer would buy from NewEgg.
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post #88 of 191
3/6/07 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

No dealer would ever buy from NewEgg.

And regarding up-converting, I can tell you SD DVDs played in the XA2 with a little tweaking of the color and image enhancement tools you can get most BD exclusive titles in SD DVD to look just like the best BD player with the BD title playing.

And though not quite as great all other G1 and G2 HD DVD players do an excellent job of up-converting all SD DVD as well.

-Robert

Robert,


It is generally conceded that the Toshibas do a better job at upconversion than the current Blu-ray players.

The difficulty with the observation is that it has absolutely nothing to do with selecting a format.

The critical consumer decision is which format to buy. The critical decision for the industry is which format to support.

Short-term issues such as the incidental properties of various machines and various disks are playing a disproportional effect on the whole process.

I have a question for you: if I am selecting a format today, trying to pick the one that will win, which would you recommend that I buy?
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post #89 of 191
3/6/07 at 3:56pm
^ I believe both formats will survive for many years and one will become the dominate format.

When I co-chaired the BD vs. HD DVD and the Winner is... CES conference I suggested the following philosophy. Consumers have lots of choices when buying CE products, LCD vs. plasma, satellite vs. cable and now BD vs. HD DVD.

-Robert
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post #90 of 191
3/6/07 at 4:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by purplesky View Post

I have a xbox 360 and I have been thinking of getting the HD-DVD add on. I also have been looking at Blu-ray and it looks like the Ps3 is the best choice for the money for Blu-ray. I have a xbr2 and 7.1 Keff sound so I am leaning towards the PS3 to watch movies. Blockbuster and netflix both carry a good selection of HD stuff. So which way should I go? The money difference is not going to kill me and it looks like the PS3 will be around for a while. I would appreciate anyones 2 cents here. I just want to pull the trigger now and not play the chase technology game.

I'd recommend the PS3. In addition to being the fastest, most responsive player for either format, you'll also be able to consume PS3 content (which should be of at least some interest since you have an Xbox 360, and MotorStorm is awesome), you'll have a great home media center, and you'll likely have access to much more content in the future given how the studio support is shaking out. Further, you'll be unable to take advantage of your 7.1 sound with the Xbox 360 HD add-on, as it only has optical output (limited to DD 5.1, and maybe DTS 5.1 after an update). The PS3 has HDMI, so you can get 7.1 PCM or TrueHD lossless sound (assuming you have an HDMI receiver).

- Talk
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